Re : The Alpine A110 (finally) cometh | PH Fleet

[Gary C]

SirTK said:

I especially given that there's not really much to master.

Dont agree. While not wanting another H&T discussion, it is another control interaction that can unsettle a chassis (either intentionally or not) that to me adds a little more to the driving experience.

But I must add a bad baulky manual is much worse that any DCT

Edited by Gary C on Tuesday 28th January 08:49

[Miserablegit]

TurboBlue said:

Yes, that is interesting, appears that the S is increasingly faster once you get into 3rd/4th gear from around 90kph onwards; I'd like to see it verified by a full road and track test with gps tracking though! I'd also note that the non-S was carrying an almost full tank of fuel while the S was nearly empty (70 vs. 380 km remaining range) and that the S was warmer (they both were a bit cool for a max rev's test for me).

Useful video but not sure I'd recommend one hand on cameraphone and the other on the wheel for Vmax demonstrations. Both hands on cameraphone surely to stop the poor filming.

[Onehp]

bcr5784 said:

Though I wouldn't actually say I prefer auto, (I like good examples of both auto and manual) I don't understand the religious fervour which some have for manuals.The manual gearbox as it is today, with three pedals, for two feet, is just an accident of history. There is an interesting youtube about the tesla from Engineering Explained https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXkRcuwoIm4 It considers how an internal combustion engine would be viewed if we had been driving electric cars for a 100 years - and the internal combustion engine was newly invented. He doesn't send up the internal combustion engine quite as well as Bob Newhart would have - but he does give serious pause for thought.

That's one pedal driving. Honestly, I wouldn't have to bother tuning my hot hatch estate for response if I could charge at home. It's even 4wd and can drift (a bit). And way fast enough for real roads. If I wouldn't need the space, the likes of the A110 or on of the very few cars that are interesting enough to keep an ICE car in the future...

[otolith]

bcr5784 said:

Though I wouldn't actually say I prefer auto, (I like good examples of both auto and manual) I don't understand the religious fervour which some have for manuals.

I own and play several guitars, despite being able to stream tens of millions of tracks of people who are very much better at playing instruments than I am.

[bcr5784]

otolith said:

I own and play several guitars, despite being able to stream tens of millions of tracks of people who are very much better at playing instruments than I am.

But if you watch the video you may conclude that if electric cars had come first, then the need for a gearbox would have been seen as a very retrograde step - by pretty much everyone. Anyway, as another poster said, I don't want to repeat the many H&T arguments. History has taken us to where we are today - but could have taken us somewhere else just as easily, and produced a much more ergonomically sound solution.

[otolith]

Absolutely. And if autonomous pods with no controls whatsoever had come first, driving a car oneself would seem similarly retrograde.

[bcr5784]

otolith said:

Absolutely. And if autonomous pods with no controls whatsoever had come first, driving a car oneself would seem similarly retrograde.

That may be true - and seems to be true for many, at least on motorways, who use cruise controls. But as far as I am concerned the most important driving skills are in steering and braking. Karting amply demonstrates that there is more than enough difficulty in those two areas to separate the men from the boys.

[Hungrymc]

Separate the men from the boys... LOL

[otolith]

bcr5784 said:

otolith said:

Absolutely. And if autonomous pods with no controls whatsoever had come first, driving a car oneself would seem similarly retrograde.

That may be true - and seems to be true for many, at least on motorways, who use cruise controls. But as far as I am concerned the most important driving skills are in steering and braking. Karting amply demonstrates that there is more than enough difficulty in those two areas to separate the men from the boys.

Sure, but you wouldn't think they were important at all if you'd never been in a car which needed you to steer or brake. Use of the steering and brakes and accelerator are all things which involve skills which are satisfying to master. So is use of a manual gearbox. For some people it's a deal breaker, for others it's not a big deal. None of it really matters, in the sense that you could get from A-B in an Uber, it's all just for fun. So if someone thinks being able to play with a manual gearbox is important to them, it is. If not, it's not. Just as the fact that it's a nice little sports car and not a Citroen Picasso matters to some and not to others.

[Miserablegit]

In older vehicles I enjoy a manual gearbox- mainly because the automatic options of the time were so poor in my view.
In a modern sportscar I embrace the ability to change down whilst dropping a cog or two with both hands on the wheel and both feet getting involved if/when required.
Fun in a manual car requires the right road and the right gearbox. I've driven too many poor manual gearboxes to think "manual" is the answer to everything. With a flexible DCT every road is the right road.
Alpine have focussed on the involvement of the driver by speccing bespoke ratios for normal roads - this means the average, single-carriageway NSL might see 5th gear engaged at legal speeds. That's 22mph below the maximum in second gear in a cayster so stop the bullst about manual geaboxes and involvement because it just isn't true in modern cars save for Lotus possibly.

Modern manual gearboxes suffer from tall gearing for:
emissions
that age-old 0-60 sprint where saving a gear-change shaves 0.4 off a time.

[bcr5784]

Hungrymc said:

Separate the men from the boys... LOL

Do you really think you (or indeed anyone who hasn't done karting at a very high level) would get anywhere near a top karter? There is a reason that practically every F1 driver has been a champion karter.

[Hungrymc]

bcr5784 said:

Do you really think you (or indeed anyone who hasn't done karting at a very high level) would get anywhere near a top karter? There is a reason that practically every F1 driver has been a champion karter.

LOL.... and where did I suggest that?

I was laughing at the use of the term "separating the men from the boys"....When we're talking about preferences in a road car.

[fido]

bcr5784 said:

But if you watch the video you may conclude that if electric cars had come first, then the need for a gearbox would have been seen as a very retrograde step - by pretty much everyone.

Electric motors can do without a gearbox (and designing one to cope with the high torque is a problem) but ultimately still lose some torque at the extreme ranges of rpm (albeit only a few %, more at higher speeds) so racing cars will still use a two-speed transmission. The Porsche Taycan has a two-speed box.

[Hungrymc]

Miserablegit said:

In older vehicles I enjoy a manual gearbox- mainly because the automatic options of the time were so poor in my view.
In a modern sportscar I embrace the ability to change down whilst dropping a cog or two with both hands on the wheel and both feet getting involved if/when required.

100% fair and reasonable. Can't and wouldn't argue.

Just seems odd that when someone has a different view (which is also fair and reasonable) they are challenged as being wrong... Its just a subjective preference.

Someone really wanting a manual isn't an affront to the Alpine, it just means the Alpine is compromised for their individual wants.... That's fine, all cars are off course compromised.

As it happens, I think the gearbox really suits the car. The car is quite different to what I expected, but its very good at what it does.... Isn't for everyone of course, nothing is.

[Miserablegit]

Hungrymc said:

100% fair and reasonable. Can't and wouldn't argue.

Just seems odd that when someone has a different view (which is also fair and reasonable) they are challenged as being wrong... Its just a subjective preference.

Someone really wanting a manual isn't an affront to the Alpine, it just means the Alpine is compromised for their individual wants.... That's fine, all cars are off course compromised.

As it happens, I think the gearbox really suits the car. The car is quite different to what I expected, but its very good at what it does.... Isn't for everyone of course, nothing is.

We are on the same page. I am not saying other people's views are wrong but it's odd that we are still having the dct/manual "discussions" nearly two years down the line when the reasons for/against it have been rehearsed ad nauseum.

[otolith]

Miserablegit said:

In older vehicles I enjoy a manual gearbox- mainly because the automatic options of the time were so poor in my view.
In a modern sportscar I embrace the ability to change down whilst dropping a cog or two with both hands on the wheel and both feet getting involved if/when required.
Fun in a manual car requires the right road and the right gearbox. I've driven too many poor manual gearboxes to think "manual" is the answer to everything. With a flexible DCT every road is the right road.
Alpine have focussed on the involvement of the driver by speccing bespoke ratios for normal roads - this means the average, single-carriageway NSL might see 5th gear engaged at legal speeds. That's 22mph below the maximum in second gear in a cayster so stop the bullst about manual geaboxes and involvement because it just isn't true in modern cars save for Lotus possibly.

Modern manual gearboxes suffer from tall gearing for:
emissions
that age-old 0-60 sprint where saving a gear-change shaves 0.4 off a time.

The point really is whether one finds the performance of a perfectly rev matched downshift under braking - or perfectly timed after braking if you're a system kind of guy - more satisfying than clicking a switch or indeed allowing the autobox to do it automatically.

Peculiarly long gearing is another matter, and seems to be a Porsche thing rather than a general thing. The A110 having short enough gears that gearchanges are necessary must definitely be an advantage if one gets satisfaction from choosing gears by clicking paddles, though just as some people don't get any satisfaction from using a clutch and gearstick, some will not care about that either.

[nickfrog]

otolith said:

Use of the steering and brakes and accelerator are all things which involve skills which are satisfying to master. So is use of a manual gearbox.

For me there is very little skill involved in using a manual, compared to the skills needed to steer, brake and accelerate.
H&T can be learnt in a manner of minutes and a couple of hours practice will get you to a decent standard.

I can't say the same thing about the other inputs. Braking alone is far far more complex to a decent level when you look at the braking trace, trail braking, LFB, staying on the traction circle, exploiting weight transfers etc etc.
I would even say that a manual is a distraction to the really important inputs.

[otolith]

nickfrog said:

otolith said:

Use of the steering and brakes and accelerator are all things which involve skills which are satisfying to master. So is use of a manual gearbox.

For me there is very little skill involved in using a manual, compared to the skills needed to steer, brake and accelerate.
H&T can be learnt in a manner of minutes and a couple of hours practice will get you to a decent standard.

I can't say the same thing about the other inputs. Braking alone is far far more complex to a decent level when you look at the braking trace, trail braking, LFB, staying on the traction circle, exploiting weight transfers etc etc.
I would even say that a manual is a distraction to the really important inputs.

And that's fine, though I'm not sure how managing the gearbox at the same time can be simultaneously trivial and distracting.

People get their kicks from different aspects of driving. There isn't a wrong answer. If someone finds manually controlling an automatic gearbox completely pointless, that's ok too (from my observations, that's pretty much everyone I've ever seen drive a paddle shift car for more than a couple of days).

[100 OCTANE]

I can’t understand why everyone would want a down grade the performance of the Alpine by having a manual gearbox, just so they can have a bit of fun using their skills.

[lukeharding]

100 OCTANE said:

I can’t understand why everyone would want a down grade the performance of the Alpine by having a manual gearbox, just so they can have a bit of fun using their skills.

Probably because they view fun as more important than performance. I like the Alpine with the DCT, but I wouldn't say no to a manual.