Re : The Alpine A110 (finally) cometh | PH Fleet

[100 OCTANE]

lukeharding said:

100 OCTANE said:

I can’t understand why everyone would want a down grade the performance of the Alpine by having a manual gearbox, just so they can have a bit of fun using their skills.

Probably because they view fun as more important than performance. I like the Alpine with the DCT, but I wouldn't say no to a manual.

Oh I see, then why not down grade it further with cart springs and cross ply tyres, even more fun, it doesn’t make any sense.

[cerb4.5lee]

otolith said:

People get their kicks from different aspects of driving. There isn't a wrong answer. If someone finds manually controlling an automatic gearbox completely pointless, that's ok too (from my observations, that's pretty much everyone I've ever seen drive a paddle shift car for more than a couple of days).

I lasted about 5 minutes before I thought meh and what is the point of the paddles in the cars I've had them in! Although I bet there are also some that use them all the time and absolutely love them.

Agree and it just comes down to personal preference.

[otolith]

100 OCTANE said:

lukeharding said:

100 OCTANE said:

I can’t understand why everyone would want a down grade the performance of the Alpine by having a manual gearbox, just so they can have a bit of fun using their skills.

Probably because they view fun as more important than performance. I like the Alpine with the DCT, but I wouldn't say no to a manual.

Oh I see, then why not down grade it further with cart springs and cross ply tyres, even more fun, it doesn’t make any sense.

I don't think you can really believe that, because if you didn't understand how the fastest car might not be the most fun car, you wouldn't have chosen the Alpine. There are several hot hatches which will go round the Nürburgring quicker. I would not take them over the Alpine, because I don't think they would be as much fun.

[Olivera]

nickfrog said:

For me there is very little skill involved in using a manual, compared to the skills needed to steer, brake and accelerate.
H&T can be learnt in a manner of minutes and a couple of hours practice will get you to a decent standard.

I can't say the same thing about the other inputs. Braking alone is far far more complex to a decent level when you look at the braking trace, trail braking, LFB, staying on the traction circle, exploiting weight transfers etc etc.
I would even say that a manual is a distraction to the really important inputs.

H&T is very easy? Perhaps the case in a piss-easy FWDer with clutch delay valve and laden with safety systems - in fact it probably makes little difference in that case. In something like a classic 911 or TVR on track you better get your heel-and-toe spot on, otherwise it'll lock the rear axle and spit you off.

Also, we are generally talking about the A110 in the context of a road car. On the road you are generally not chasing the shortest line through a corner, nor hitting an apex, nor trail braking, nor left foot braking and so on. When you are not doing any of those things, *and* you also remove changing gear and heel-and-toe, well then you are really not doing any skilful driving at all.

[DoubleD]

100 OCTANE said:

lukeharding said:

100 OCTANE said:

I can’t understand why everyone would want a down grade the performance of the Alpine by having a manual gearbox, just so they can have a bit of fun using their skills.

Probably because they view fun as more important than performance. I like the Alpine with the DCT, but I wouldn't say no to a manual.

Oh I see, then why not down grade it further with cart springs and cross ply tyres, even more fun, it doesn’t make any sense.

Some people enjoy using a manual gearbox, that I am sure you will understand, some people also put fun (as they see it) over speed, that I am sure you also get. So now you get it and now it makes sense to you.

[100 OCTANE]

otolith said:

100 OCTANE said:

lukeharding said:

100 OCTANE said:

I can’t understand why everyone would want a down grade the performance of the Alpine by having a manual gearbox, just so they can have a bit of fun using their skills.

Probably because they view fun as more important than performance. I like the Alpine with the DCT, but I wouldn't say no to a manual.

Oh I see, then why not down grade it further with cart springs and cross ply tyres, even more fun, it doesn’t make any sense.

I don't think you can really believe that, because if you didn't understand how the fastest car might not be the most fun car, you wouldn't have chosen the Alpine. There are several hot hatches which will go round the Nürburgring quicker. I would not take them over the Alpine, because I don't think they would be as much fun.

You can twist it as much as you like, but fitting manual gearbox in a Alpine is a downgrade, that’s the point I’m trying to get across.

[otolith]

100 OCTANE said:

otolith said:

100 OCTANE said:

lukeharding said:

100 OCTANE said:

I can’t understand why everyone would want a down grade the performance of the Alpine by having a manual gearbox, just so they can have a bit of fun using their skills.

Probably because they view fun as more important than performance. I like the Alpine with the DCT, but I wouldn't say no to a manual.

Oh I see, then why not down grade it further with cart springs and cross ply tyres, even more fun, it doesn’t make any sense.

I don't think you can really believe that, because if you didn't understand how the fastest car might not be the most fun car, you wouldn't have chosen the Alpine. There are several hot hatches which will go round the Nürburgring quicker. I would not take them over the Alpine, because I don't think they would be as much fun.

You can twist it as much as you like, but fitting manual gearbox in a Alpine is a downgrade, that’s the point I’m trying to get across.

It would make it slower, for sure. Whether that amounts to a downgrade depends how much you enjoy using a manual. There are lots of cars faster than an A110 which I would consider a downgrade, so...

But - it's not going to happen, and realistically the automatic was necessary from an emissions, 0-60 figure for marketing, and significant customer expectation point of view. Engineering a good manual as well would just be too expensive to justify.

[100 OCTANE]

otolith said:

100 OCTANE said:

otolith said:

100 OCTANE said:

lukeharding said:

100 OCTANE said:

I can’t understand why everyone would want a down grade the performance of the Alpine by having a manual gearbox, just so they can have a bit of fun using their skills.

Probably because they view fun as more important than performance. I like the Alpine with the DCT, but I wouldn't say no to a manual.

Oh I see, then why not down grade it further with cart springs and cross ply tyres, even more fun, it doesn’t make any sense.

I don't think you can really believe that, because if you didn't understand how the fastest car might not be the most fun car, you wouldn't have chosen the Alpine. There are several hot hatches which will go round the Nürburgring quicker. I would not take them over the Alpine, because I don't think they would be as much fun.

You can twist it as much as you like, but fitting manual gearbox in a Alpine is a downgrade, that’s the point I’m trying to get across.

It would make it slower, for sure. Whether that amounts to a downgrade depends how much you enjoy using a manual. There are lots of cars faster than an A110 which I would consider a downgrade, so...

But - it's not going to happen, and realistically the automatic was necessary from an emissions, 0-60 figure for marketing, and significant customer expectation point of view. Engineering a good manual as well would just be too expensive to justify.

I would regard that comment as faffing.

[100 OCTANE]

[bcr5784]

Olivera said:

Also, we are generally talking about the A110 in the context of a road car. On the road you are generally not chasing the shortest line through a corner, nor hitting an apex, nor trail braking, nor left foot braking and so on. When you are not doing any of those things, *and* you also remove changing gear and heel-and-toe, well then you are really not doing any skilful driving at all.

While I agree that you certainly shouldn't/wouldn't/couldn't drive on the road in the same way as you might on the track, I think you overstate things. You won't use the same lines on the road (obviously) but it doesn't mean that getting the right one (given visibility etc) isn't important, sure you don't use trail braking as much - but there are bends that I take on the road where I do (the A110 is great at that) and I LFB all the time - unfortunately I can't use it to overcome lag because using the brake cuts the throttle on the A110.

And on the plus side there are lots of occasions where I will change up and then down again with DCT where I would just stick in the same gear with a manual box because of time constraints. With the sort of ratios you have with a manual Cayman that is a MASSIVE issue for me.

And a big plus with DCT is that it reduces/masks lag a lot of the time.

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 28th January 20:33

[Gary C]

nickfrog said:

otolith said:

Use of the steering and brakes and accelerator are all things which involve skills which are satisfying to master. So is use of a manual gearbox.

For me there is very little skill involved in using a manual, compared to the skills needed to steer, brake and accelerate.
H&T can be learnt in a manner of minutes and a couple of hours practice will get you to a decent standard.

I can't say the same thing about the other inputs. Braking alone is far far more complex to a decent level when you look at the braking trace, trail braking, LFB, staying on the traction circle, exploiting weight transfers etc etc.
I would even say that a manual is a distraction to the really important inputs.

I would say your talking bks

[bcr5784]

Gary C said:

nickfrog said:

otolith said:

Use of the steering and brakes and accelerator are all things which involve skills which are satisfying to master. So is use of a manual gearbox.

For me there is very little skill involved in using a manual, compared to the skills needed to steer, brake and accelerate.
H&T can be learnt in a manner of minutes and a couple of hours practice will get you to a decent standard.

I can't say the same thing about the other inputs. Braking alone is far far more complex to a decent level when you look at the braking trace, trail braking, LFB, staying on the traction circle, exploiting weight transfers etc etc.
I would even say that a manual is a distraction to the really important inputs.

I would say your talking bks

Let me agree that for the average Joe (like me) getting H&T right requires real concentration - and almost certainly detracts from the serious business of steering and braking on track. For someone who can REALLY drive it really is a background activity that they perfected in their teens.

[100 OCTANE]

100 OCTANE said:

Will there soon be an SUV in the Alpine range? The idea is often mentioned, like what Porsche did with its Cayenne and Macan, but the brand has never formalized such a project. It will revive the rumor machine itself with the surprise presentation of this A110 Sports X concept. The vehicle was unveiled at the inauguration of the Festival International Automobile 2020, in Paris, in the presence of Patrick Marinoff, director general of the brand since the fall.

The Sports X is an A110 revised in adventurer sauce. The coupé was thus raised by 60 mm and the bodywork was widened by 80 mm. The model here sports protections at the rocker panels and the wheel arches! From certain angles, the vehicle can be reminiscent of the Aston Martin DBX concept (unveiled in 2015).

Alpine A110 Sports X: an SUV version of the A110 coupe
The design of the A110 has been revised with new, larger openings in the front bumper, or even vertical vents at the lights. This model is cut for the mountain, a theme dear to the brand, with a ski holder attached to the level of the bezel. The tires are thicker. This A110 has a two-tone silhouette, with a black painted top and cover.

The brand, which published these first photos on its social networks, has not yet sent us the technical details. We should quickly know more about the vehicle, and have a full gallery of images.

[Miserablegit]

Right - that’s me raiding the options list - a ski rack that looks almost as cool as the one on Bond’s Esprit.

[Hungrymc]

100 OCTANE said:

You can twist it as much as you like, but fitting manual gearbox in a Alpine is a downgrade, that’s the point I’m trying to get across.

And its a completely reasonable opinion for you and your preferences. It would compromise performance, and increase the demand / distraction on the driver.... a down grade

But it would be a significant upgrade to some based on there preferences. It would compromise performance, but add even more involvement for the driver in a car which values engagement and feel..... an upgrade.

It really isn’t that hard to accept both views are valid and reasonable?

[DoubleD]

Hungrymc said:

100 OCTANE said:

You can twist it as much as you like, but fitting manual gearbox in a Alpine is a downgrade, that’s the point I’m trying to get across.

And its a completely reasonable opinion for you and your preferences. It would compromise performance, and increase the demand / distraction on the driver.... a down grade

But it would be a significant upgrade to some based on there preferences. It would compromise performance, but add even more involvement for the driver in a car which values engagement and feel..... an upgrade.

It really isn’t that hard to accept both views are valid and reasonable?

Yep.

I'm sure that we can all agree that to some a manual gearbox would be a downgrade and to others it would be an upgrade.

[Onehp]

Hungrymc said:

And its a completely reasonable opinion for you and your preferences. It would compromise performance, and increase the demand / distraction on the driver.... a down grade

But it would be a significant upgrade to some based on there preferences. It would compromise performance, but add even more involvement for the driver in a car which values engagement and feel..... an upgrade.

It really isn’t that hard to accept both views are valid and reasonable?

Exactly. This car only reason of existence is fun imho, and that is entirely subjective (to preference on gearboxes). On the road you aren't constrained by lack of performance in any performance oriented car, if speed was a criteria, perhaps a 'performance suv' could be faster due to visibility. On track it's definitely not the fastest. Etc.

The above X version would in my eyes be more of a gravel rally version, instead of calling it a 'SUV' which in my context is a... downgrade

Now add an lsd and a hydraulic handbrake

[Onehp]

bcr5784 said:

Let me agree that for the average Joe (like me) getting H&T right requires real concentration - and almost certainly detracts from the serious business of steering and braking on track. For someone who can REALLY drive it really is a background activity that they perfected in their teens.

For me it comes almost... automatically. The point for me is, like with any other controls, I want to have the sense that I'm 'one' with the car, directly wired as much as possible within the constraints of the concept. I haven't tried the very latest supercar dual clutches paddle shifts, but so far the paddles have a delay which for me distract from the driving as I'm not being part of the process like with a slower manual. In a similar way a sloppy or feelless steering wheel, brake pedal or laggy throttle destract from driving enjoyment. With a GOOD manual I just feel more in tune and in control of what's going on...

[Plate spinner]

Hungrymc said:

100 OCTANE said:

You can twist it as much as you like, but fitting manual gearbox in a Alpine is a downgrade, that’s the point I’m trying to get across.

And its a completely reasonable opinion for you and your preferences. It would compromise performance, and increase the demand / distraction on the driver.... a down grade

But it would be a significant upgrade to some based on there preferences. It would compromise performance, but add even more involvement for the driver in a car which values engagement and feel..... an upgrade.

It really isn’t that hard to accept both views are valid and reasonable?

Exactly.
To say it’s an upgrade / downgrade is purely based on the criteria you’ve set.

It’s pretty simple...

[bcr5784]

Onehp said:

For me it comes almost... automatically. The point for me is, like with any other controls, I want to have the sense that I'm 'one' with the car, directly wired as much as possible within the constraints of the concept. I haven't tried the very latest supercar dual clutches paddle shifts, but so far the paddles have a delay which for me distract from the driving as I'm not being part of the process like with a slower manual. In a similar way a sloppy or feelless steering wheel, brake pedal or laggy throttle destract from driving enjoyment. With a GOOD manual I just feel more in tune and in control of what's going on...

There are sloppy autos (most slushboxes in my experience) and sloppy manuals. The A110 certainly isn't sloppy - quite the contrary. Try an Alpine (or a PDK Porsche) and response to the paddles is, for all practical purpose instant. It certainly isn't anything like sloppy steering - or even a sloppy manual gearbox. You may not have the tactile feel of a manual gearbox, but you are hardwired to the gearbox in a way that you simply can't be in a manual, because it's the manual that is slow to respond - you simply can't move your hand fast enough.