Re : The Alpine A110 (finally) cometh | PH Fleet
Discussion
A manual has to have a tolerance (added weight) for "driver abuse" - an auto doesn't because it's protected by a torque management computer and can be more lightly engineered. However, twin clutch boxes contain a lot of gubbins, so tend to put on weight. They often have more gears than the equivalent manual as well - again adding more weight.
The most usual difficulty with engineering a mid-engine manual is the gear linkage. Not only long and cumbersome but also gets in the way when trying to physically package the rest of the car.
If a transmission is engineered to handle a wide range of engine outputs it can't be specially built to suit the smallest engine, so will carry some extra weight.
The most usual difficulty with engineering a mid-engine manual is the gear linkage. Not only long and cumbersome but also gets in the way when trying to physically package the rest of the car.
If a transmission is engineered to handle a wide range of engine outputs it can't be specially built to suit the smallest engine, so will carry some extra weight.
I found this video, I think it does a good job explaining the DCT vs Manual gearbox’s
https://youtu.be/4OSDw-uyP98
https://youtu.be/4OSDw-uyP98
Onehp said:
If the cars structure is prepared for a manual, it is heavier also. Leaving out the from the design stage saves quite some weight.
Yeah I can see why that would be true. For me though, its still a shame that it doesnt have a manual gearbox. An automatic rules this out for me. 100 OCTANE said:
I found this video, I think it does a good job explaining the DCT vs Manual gearbox’s
https://youtu.be/4OSDw-uyP98
In his unique style, he does a good job. But it's simplified on two points that matter for us:https://youtu.be/4OSDw-uyP98
- Torque converter: a modern ZF is as good as it is because it in effect is also a type of dual clutch. Once the engine and gearbox axle speeds align, it will lock up with a second wet plate clutch, and 'lock up'. This means direct transmission feel and no losses. The gearbox also works completely different from manuals and dct using many clutches on several planetary gears. Combining these clutches with the main clutches with clever electronic control, make for quick and smooth changes with very little losses.
- Dual clutch: the worst ones have dry dual clutches. Most of the modern ones use wet multi plate clutch packs and can take a lot of torque. They are not so easily damaged when slipping as dry ones. Also in many applications, they won't creep in drive and no throttle to save the clutches.
Onehp said:
In his unique style, he does a good job. But it's simplified on two points that matter for us:
- Torque converter: a modern ZF is as good as it is because it in effect is also a type of dual clutch. Once the engine and gearbox axle speeds align, it will lock up with a second wet plate clutch, and 'lock up'. This means direct transmission feel and no losses. The gearbox also works completely different from manuals and dct using many clutches on several planetary gears. Combining these clutches with the main clutches with clever electronic control, make for quick and smooth changes with very little losses.
There are a couple of simplifications in that. Epicyclic gear trains are not generally as efficient as the simpler helical gear trains in DCT and manual gearboxes. And DCTs have more gears in mesh than manual boxes so have more losses. In the end the fact that both DCTs and good torque-converter ones generally have more gears and will slip into higher gears more than most manual drivers gives an economy advantage. PDK has a coast function too which helps a lot on motorways. - Torque converter: a modern ZF is as good as it is because it in effect is also a type of dual clutch. Once the engine and gearbox axle speeds align, it will lock up with a second wet plate clutch, and 'lock up'. This means direct transmission feel and no losses. The gearbox also works completely different from manuals and dct using many clutches on several planetary gears. Combining these clutches with the main clutches with clever electronic control, make for quick and smooth changes with very little losses.
Onehp said:
If the cars structure is prepared for a manual, it is heavier also. Leaving out the from the design stage saves quite some weight.
?How on earth do you justify that statement
edit, sorry that sounded confrontational !, how very un PH of me !
Edited by Gary C on Friday 17th January 13:03
rockin said:
A manual has to have a tolerance (added weight) for "driver abuse" - an auto doesn't because it's protected by a torque management computer and can be more lightly engineered. However, twin clutch boxes contain a lot of gubbins, so tend to put on weight. They often have more gears than the equivalent manual as well - again adding more weight.
The most usual difficulty with engineering a mid-engine manual is the gear linkage. Not only long and cumbersome but also gets in the way when trying to physically package the rest of the car.
If a transmission is engineered to handle a wide range of engine outputs it can't be specially built to suit the smallest engine, so will carry some extra weight.
That is certainly a point.The most usual difficulty with engineering a mid-engine manual is the gear linkage. Not only long and cumbersome but also gets in the way when trying to physically package the rest of the car.
If a transmission is engineered to handle a wide range of engine outputs it can't be specially built to suit the smallest engine, so will carry some extra weight.
The 7DCT300 weighs 65kg dry, my 32 year old G50 filled with oil weighs 66kg or about 62 kg dry, though you need to add the clutch weight to be fair at 12kg so a 30 year old 911 transaxle & clutch weighs 74 kgs
We know a G50 isn't exactly a light weight unit and was built to take a range of torque inputs.
Dont really believe the DCT was necessary for weight saving, more for emissions compliance like every other manufacturer uses them for
bcr5784 said:
Onehp said:
In his unique style, he does a good job. But it's simplified on two points that matter for us:
- Torque converter: a modern ZF is as good as it is because it in effect is also a type of dual clutch. Once the engine and gearbox axle speeds align, it will lock up with a second wet plate clutch, and 'lock up'. This means direct transmission feel and no losses. The gearbox also works completely different from manuals and dct using many clutches on several planetary gears. Combining these clutches with the main clutches with clever electronic control, make for quick and smooth changes with very little losses.
There are a couple of simplifications in that. Epicyclic gear trains are not generally as efficient as the simpler helical gear trains in DCT and manual gearboxes. And DCTs have more gears in mesh than manual boxes so have more losses. In the end the fact that both DCTs and good torque-converter ones generally have more gears and will slip into higher gears more than most manual drivers gives an economy advantage. PDK has a coast function too which helps a lot on motorways. - Torque converter: a modern ZF is as good as it is because it in effect is also a type of dual clutch. Once the engine and gearbox axle speeds align, it will lock up with a second wet plate clutch, and 'lock up'. This means direct transmission feel and no losses. The gearbox also works completely different from manuals and dct using many clutches on several planetary gears. Combining these clutches with the main clutches with clever electronic control, make for quick and smooth changes with very little losses.
Automatic gearboxes for sale today are very good.
I still prefer manual but purely from an enthusiast perspective.
Edited by Onehp on Friday 17th January 13:45
Gary C said:
Onehp said:
If the cars structure is prepared for a manual, it is heavier also. Leaving out them from the design stage saves quite some weight.
?How on earth do you justify that statement
edit, sorry that sounded confrontational !, how very un PH of me !
Edited by Gary C on Friday 17th January 13:03
Unless they re-engineer quite some, the A110 will never come as a manual as it was designed as auto only from the ground up.
Edited by Onehp on Friday 17th January 13:48
Gary C said:
That is certainly a point.
The 7DCT300 weighs 65kg dry, my 32 year old G50 filled with oil weighs 66kg or about 62 kg dry, though you need to add the clutch weight to be fair at 12kg so a 30 year old 911 transaxle & clutch weighs 74 kgs
We know a G50 isn't exactly a light weight unit and was built to take a range of torque inputs.
Dont really believe the DCT was necessary for weight saving, more for emissions compliance like every other manufacturer uses them for
Plus there is the additional weight of controls etc in the manual box.The 7DCT300 weighs 65kg dry, my 32 year old G50 filled with oil weighs 66kg or about 62 kg dry, though you need to add the clutch weight to be fair at 12kg so a 30 year old 911 transaxle & clutch weighs 74 kgs
We know a G50 isn't exactly a light weight unit and was built to take a range of torque inputs.
Dont really believe the DCT was necessary for weight saving, more for emissions compliance like every other manufacturer uses them for
It might only save 20kg but I think this approach is how Alpine have kept the weight down- the seats then save another 20kg or so and then you’re at a 40kg plus saving before you look at the aluminium structure.
Miserablegit said:
Plus there is the additional weight of controls etc in the manual box.
It might only save 20kg but I think this approach is how Alpine have kept the weight down- the seats then save another 20kg or so and then you’re at a 40kg plus saving before you look at the aluminium structure.
Every comment I've ever read from an engineer or designer has stated that dropping a DCT and replacing with a manual box *saves* weight - overall and including everything.It might only save 20kg but I think this approach is how Alpine have kept the weight down- the seats then save another 20kg or so and then you’re at a 40kg plus saving before you look at the aluminium structure.
Olivera said:
Miserablegit said:
Plus there is the additional weight of controls etc in the manual box.
It might only save 20kg but I think this approach is how Alpine have kept the weight down- the seats then save another 20kg or so and then you’re at a 40kg plus saving before you look at the aluminium structure.
Every comment I've ever read from an engineer or designer has stated that dropping a DCT and replacing with a manual box *saves* weight - overall and including everything.It might only save 20kg but I think this approach is how Alpine have kept the weight down- the seats then save another 20kg or so and then you’re at a 40kg plus saving before you look at the aluminium structure.
cerb4.5lee said:
yonex said:
I'd rather a good DCT than a manual which wasn't really nice. Most modern new manual boxes aren't great anyway 
You make a good point and from what I've read/have seen the manual gearbox in the new V8 Vantage is a bit of a pup. That certainly doesn't help sales of manuals in fairness. What you are saying also applies to the E92 M3 as well. The DCT was a better suit to the engine(for me) and the manual gearbox wasn't the best either.
Some cars do suit an auto better though.
Onehp said:
Justify? In what sense? Alpine said so somewhere during the launch. From a technical point of view, they didn't have to bother with the structure/tunnel for the gear lever (must be stiff for positive action) and the space and structures in the footwell to accomodate the clutch pedal and ancillaries. So while the box itself is heavier, all in all they claimed it was lighter.
Unless they re-engineer quite some, the A110 will never come as a manual as it was designed as auto only from the ground up.
I meant from justify, how do you work out that a manual needs a heavier structure.(and then re-read it, hence the edit Unless they re-engineer quite some, the A110 will never come as a manual as it was designed as auto only from the ground up.
Edited by Onehp on Friday 17th January 13:48
)Interesting points re mounting and footwell. Cant see why it would preclude stiffness in those areas without significant addtional weight, but interesting.
I see what you mean about it not being able to take a manual now without stiffening in those areas.
Miserablegit said:
Gary C said:
That is certainly a point.
The 7DCT300 weighs 65kg dry, my 32 year old G50 filled with oil weighs 66kg or about 62 kg dry, though you need to add the clutch weight to be fair at 12kg so a 30 year old 911 transaxle & clutch weighs 74 kgs
We know a G50 isn't exactly a light weight unit and was built to take a range of torque inputs.
Dont really believe the DCT was necessary for weight saving, more for emissions compliance like every other manufacturer uses them for
Plus there is the additional weight of controls etc in the manual box.The 7DCT300 weighs 65kg dry, my 32 year old G50 filled with oil weighs 66kg or about 62 kg dry, though you need to add the clutch weight to be fair at 12kg so a 30 year old 911 transaxle & clutch weighs 74 kgs
We know a G50 isn't exactly a light weight unit and was built to take a range of torque inputs.
Dont really believe the DCT was necessary for weight saving, more for emissions compliance like every other manufacturer uses them for
It might only save 20kg but I think this approach is how Alpine have kept the weight down- the seats then save another 20kg or so and then you’re at a 40kg plus saving before you look at the aluminium structure.
Even a Getrag 240 was only 30 kgs (but wouldnt take the Alpines torque)
Actually, you could save more weight by getting rid of the turbo engine and putting in a high revving NA and you could save gearbox weight by not having to manage the torque from the turbo motor
Edited by Gary C on Friday 17th January 15:52
Regarding the weight saving DCT over Manual is clutching at straws in the context of this car, faster shifts, better eco, closer ratios etc. yes maybe but no buyer is going to be put off by a 15-30 kilo weight penalty either way if they prefer one or the other.
The fact is it's DCT and by all accounts a good one but for those who prefer manual it will never work unless they try it and keep an open mind.
The fact is it's DCT and by all accounts a good one but for those who prefer manual it will never work unless they try it and keep an open mind.
Rocket. said:
Regarding the weight saving DCT over Manual is clutching at straws in the context of this car, faster shifts, better eco, closer ratios etc. yes maybe but no buyer is going to be put off by a 15-30 kilo weight penalty either way if they prefer one or the other.
The fact is it's DCT and by all accounts a good one but for those who prefer manual it will never work unless they try it and keep an open mind.
For me its not about having an open mind, I know that modern automatics are very good and are probably technically better, but I still prefer a manual. The fact is it's DCT and by all accounts a good one but for those who prefer manual it will never work unless they try it and keep an open mind.
I think half the problem comes from people referring to DCT as auto and that makes people think of slushboxes of old.
I hated slushboxes and would never drive one out of choice but the DCT is great and has to be driven- I never drive it in auto and am swapping cogs more than I would in a manual sportscar that was, say, geared for 80 in second...
To all those who say they’d love an alpine but couldn’t cope with “an auto” I urge them to drive one.
I hated slushboxes and would never drive one out of choice but the DCT is great and has to be driven- I never drive it in auto and am swapping cogs more than I would in a manual sportscar that was, say, geared for 80 in second...
To all those who say they’d love an alpine but couldn’t cope with “an auto” I urge them to drive one.
Everyone needs are different, so I would like to try to clarifies the situation
1) The transmission takes power from the engine and transmits it to the drive wheels
2) The clutch, when depressed, momentarily disengages the engine from the transmission and therefore, stops sending any power to the wheels. During this period abou 4/10ths of second (or longer…the fast human takes about 4/10ths to complete a shift), the car is effectively coasting, with no power being sent to the drive wheels. This means, every time a gear is shift its momentarily in neutral for 4/10ths of a second. Multiply that by four shifts in a 1/4 mile run and you’re coasting for 1.6 seconds.
3) A DCT-equipped car shifts in about 150 milliseconds. The human eye takes twice as long to blink. This is how cars like the Alpine A110 in conjunction with its low weight can accelerate from 0-60mph in 4.5 seconds.
If you’re talking about which transmission is better for performance cars with lots of horsepower, the answer is clear, DCT wins
Ultimately, in the battle of the DCT vs manual gearboxes, for outright performance, the DCT gearbox is the undisputed winner.
On the other hand, if you like pleasure of driving under full control, and don’t mind losing a bit of performance and fuel economy, then the manual gearbox wins
1) The transmission takes power from the engine and transmits it to the drive wheels
2) The clutch, when depressed, momentarily disengages the engine from the transmission and therefore, stops sending any power to the wheels. During this period abou 4/10ths of second (or longer…the fast human takes about 4/10ths to complete a shift), the car is effectively coasting, with no power being sent to the drive wheels. This means, every time a gear is shift its momentarily in neutral for 4/10ths of a second. Multiply that by four shifts in a 1/4 mile run and you’re coasting for 1.6 seconds.
3) A DCT-equipped car shifts in about 150 milliseconds. The human eye takes twice as long to blink. This is how cars like the Alpine A110 in conjunction with its low weight can accelerate from 0-60mph in 4.5 seconds.
If you’re talking about which transmission is better for performance cars with lots of horsepower, the answer is clear, DCT wins
Ultimately, in the battle of the DCT vs manual gearboxes, for outright performance, the DCT gearbox is the undisputed winner.
On the other hand, if you like pleasure of driving under full control, and don’t mind losing a bit of performance and fuel economy, then the manual gearbox wins
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