Re : Toyota GR Yaris - official!

[RB Will]

Rsx Boy said:

Sorry for any non clarity.
I wish I was as clever as Yoda.
I'm probably as attractive.

You are citing vw cars as alternatives.
I am saying VW buyers would not be seen dead in a Yaris. The cars you have mentioned would never be on a TT buyers spectrum.
It's irrelevant that a TT RS is the same potential price of the GR as TT boy ain't buying a Toyota.

Allayed confusions hope to have I........

What cars would you suggest are alternatives?

[braddo]

nickfrog said:

braddo said:

Focussing on just the monthly lease payments is misleading.

True, a bit like focusing on just the list price rather than the transaction price

How do you propose to compare anything then?

Is there any data out there to tell what an average real selling price is for any particular car or manufacturer? Yes you can assume there is some sort of discount on most car sales but then you need to also assume an added amount for optional extras. The list price is probably a reasonable rough yardstick after discounts and optional extras.

[braddo]

Perhaps if someone knows what list prices are in Japan it would give a clue of the likely difference between this Yaris's price in Japan and the UK.

For example what do a mid-spec GT86 (Toyota sports car) and a RAV4 (Toyota in £30-40k bracket) retail for in Japan?


(Who the hell would pay £40k for a RAV4? )

[blearyeyedboy]

Kolbenkopp said:

Yep... Everybody please edit their posts and drop predictions / acceptable price statements by a least 5k .

Oh, right. I'll be disappointed if it costs more than £7.26. *cough, wink*



Less flippantly, we might be salivating, but lots of forum warriors gushed great posts of love for the GT86, and then went out to buy 2 litre turbo hatches instead. I can imagine the overdone poetry now:

[i]Shall I compare thee to an Eighty Six?
Thou art more rapid and more up to date.
But life requires five doors and Isofix
And Yaris lease hath a poor interest rate.[/i]

This needs to be priced keenly if they want to shift 20000 across the world. That means offering keen enough interest rates on finance as well as a good-enough list price to tempt those who talk a good game but who currently buy something else. We on this website and our opinions are not representative of the market.

The market can sustain limited edition Méganes but to sell the required volume, this needs to be marketed well and priced well. When even a Civic Type R comes with five doors for those with families, and several tasty two seaters exist for around £35k, you need to tempt people away from both markets to buy this.

Don't get me wrong: I think the Yaris deserves to sell well. But convincing a big enough market of that requires more than just being deserving.

[Rsx Boy]

RB Will said:

What cars would you suggest are alternatives?

There are non new I can think of.
It's in a class of its own at the moment.

What do you recon ?

[Trevor555]

Rsx Boy said:

RB Will said:

What cars would you suggest are alternatives?

There are non new I can think of.
It's in a class of its own at the moment.

What do you recon ?

I'd guess an Audi S1 would be the closest?

250bhp for the new one, 1315kg, 4wd

Edit,, I've just googled it again and says new car due at 250bhp.

So I'm not sure it's available. Anyone??

Edited by Trevor555 on Thursday 16th January 20:20

[spikyone]

Kolbenkopp said:

Not an easy exercise to set a price for the thing. On the one hand it's clear it is more than a bit special. On the other hand the 25k they need to shift. Small performance non-SUV cars without badge / status aren't exactly in high demand. Outside of our little bubble, nobody cares about driving. It's also going to be pretty brutally taxed in some countries as our Dutch friends have reminded us in this thread. And many other places have an eco tax on anything with a powerful ICE.

That's 25,000 globally though. Toyota will be acutely aware - as you should be - that they sell very few cars in Europe, of any flavour. They easily shift volumes in Asia (especially Japan of course) and Australia.
Realistically, Toyota can price it however they like here. Assuming total sales aren't capped, they might not need to sell a single car in Europe, and I bet they'll clear that volume inside 18 months elsewhere.

[Kolbenkopp]

spikyone said:

Realistically, Toyota can price it however they like here. Assuming total sales aren't capped, they might not need to sell a single car in Europe, and I bet they'll clear that volume inside 18 months elsewhere.

That might (sadly) very well be true. They only have 12 months though. Which might be irrelevant if they have huge demand in Asia. Assumptions: Americas are out. Europe will be difficult. What are likely markets in Asia and how much demand is there?

I'm having a hard time finding sales numbers for say the GT86 on the Asian market.

[spikyone]

Kolbenkopp said:

That might (sadly) very well be true. They only have 12 months though. Which might be irrelevant if they have huge demand in Asia. Assumptions: Americas are out. Europe will be difficult. What are likely markets in Asia and how much demand is there?

I'm having a hard time finding sales numbers for say the GT86 on the Asian market.

Allegedly 39,000 in the first 2 years for the GT86 in Japan alone; they hit 100,000 globally in that period - and apparently that's only Toyota-badged versions so excludes the US, where it was originally a Scion.
25,000 Yaris GRs in a year, excluding Europe? Easy.

[rossub]

blearyeyedboy said:

Oh, right. I'll be disappointed if it costs more than £7.26. *cough, wink*



Less flippantly, we might be salivating, but lots of forum warriors gushed great posts of love for the GT86, and then went out to buy 2 litre turbo hatches instead. I can imagine the overdone poetry now:

[i]Shall I compare thee to an Eighty Six?
Thou art more rapid and more up to date.
But life requires five doors and Isofix
And Yaris lease hath a poor interest rate.[/i]

This needs to be priced keenly if they want to shift 20000 across the world. That means offering keen enough interest rates on finance as well as a good-enough list price to tempt those who talk a good game but who currently buy something else. We on this website and our opinions are not representative of the market.

The market can sustain limited edition Méganes but to sell the required volume, this needs to be marketed well and priced well. When even a Civic Type R comes with five doors for those with families, and several tasty two seaters exist for around £35k, you need to tempt people away from both markets to buy this.

Don't get me wrong: I think the Yaris deserves to sell well. But convincing a big enough market of that requires more than just being deserving.

Exactly. There seems to be a few deluded posters who think a £40k Yaris will sell. It won’t.

[nickfrog]

braddo said:

How do you propose to compare anything then?

Is there any data out there to tell what an average real selling price is for any particular car or manufacturer? Yes you can assume there is some sort of discount on most car sales but then you need to also assume an added amount for optional extras. The list price is probably a reasonable rough yardstick after discounts and optional extras.

Plenty of data. Just look at the brokers for a very good guide of transaction prices. Options? Apply the sme discount. Price lists have become a poor indicator because of varying levels of discounts and varying levels of support (the same thing).

[braddo]

nickfrog said:

Plenty of data. Just look at the brokers for a very good guide of transaction prices. Options? Apply the sme discount. Price lists have become a poor indicator because of varying levels of discounts and varying levels of support (the same thing).

And the brokers - what market share do they have? Which ones are representative of the market as a whole? Can you come up with a better comparator than list price?

[spikyone]

rossub said:

blearyeyedboy said:

Oh, right. I'll be disappointed if it costs more than £7.26. *cough, wink*



Less flippantly, we might be salivating, but lots of forum warriors gushed great posts of love for the GT86, and then went out to buy 2 litre turbo hatches instead. I can imagine the overdone poetry now:

[i]Shall I compare thee to an Eighty Six?
Thou art more rapid and more up to date.
But life requires five doors and Isofix
And Yaris lease hath a poor interest rate.[/i]

This needs to be priced keenly if they want to shift 20000 across the world. That means offering keen enough interest rates on finance as well as a good-enough list price to tempt those who talk a good game but who currently buy something else. We on this website and our opinions are not representative of the market.

The market can sustain limited edition Méganes but to sell the required volume, this needs to be marketed well and priced well. When even a Civic Type R comes with five doors for those with families, and several tasty two seaters exist for around £35k, you need to tempt people away from both markets to buy this.

Don't get me wrong: I think the Yaris deserves to sell well. But convincing a big enough market of that requires more than just being deserving.

Exactly. There seems to be a few deluded posters who think a £40k Yaris will sell. It won’t.

Blearyeyedboy's post takes a particularly UK-centric view, which is going to be completely irrelevant for other markets.

As I said before, it doesn't matter if it sells in Europe. Toyota will easily sell that volume elsewhere. I don't think it will cost as much as £40k - I hope it won't - but Toyota in the UK will be more concerned with profitability than volumes. They won't be rushing to offer BMW-sized discounts, subsidised PCP, or bargain basement lease deals, and they don't need to.

[Onehp]

spikyone said:

Blearyeyedboy's post takes a particularly UK-centric view, which is going to be completely irrelevant for other markets.

As I said before, it doesn't matter if it sells in Europe. Toyota will easily sell that volume elsewhere. I don't think it will cost as much as £40k - I hope it won't - but Toyota in the UK will be more concerned with profitability than volumes. They won't be rushing to offer BMW-sized discounts, subsidised PCP, or bargain basement lease deals, and they don't need to.

Agree. And as said, in their biggest market Japan, they are making a more accessible version without turbo and an auto CVT box, part of the 25000 units that they need to shift as it will have the bodyshell and engine block.

[blearyeyedboy]

spikyone said:

Blearyeyedboy's post takes a particularly UK-centric view, which is going to be completely irrelevant for other markets.

As I said before, it doesn't matter if it sells in Europe. Toyota will easily sell that volume elsewhere. I don't think it will cost as much as £40k - I hope it won't - but Toyota in the UK will be more concerned with profitability than volumes. They won't be rushing to offer BMW-sized discounts, subsidised PCP, or bargain basement lease deals, and they don't need to.

Eurocentric, certainly that I'll concede.
You're right that the bulk will be sold outside Europe but I'm not so sure Toyota can do without Europe. Time will tell, and you may well be right.

[Zarco]

Onehp said:

Agree. And as said, in their biggest market Japan, they are making a more accessible version without turbo and an auto CVT box, part of the 25000 units that they need to shift as it will have the bodyshell and engine block.

That's interesting and a shame from my enthusiasts perspective. I want them all to be full blooded rally reps.

I would have thought they needed the turbo and stuff like intercooler water spray on all 25k cars built for homogolation. Not the end of the world. I'm just chuffed Toyota are building cars like this again.

[Treacle_GT4]

Save Ferris said:

Onehp said:

ecsrobin said:

The problem the Yaris faces is not one of desirability but one of an affordable price to sell the required amount to meet homologation within a year.

Not if they sell the same body with a non-turbo engine and a CVT gearbox.

Which they won't unfortunately.

Actually they are already showing a non turbo CVT version using the same body and styling on their Japanese site somewhere, so it is highly likely one will be made. Whether this will be offered outside Japan who knows, but a lower powered, probably fwd version is not something most of the crowd at pistonheads would be that interested in. Though there would be a market for the younger drivers who want the look of the GR but cant afford the price/insurance.

[Treacle_GT4]

Zarco said:

Onehp said:

Agree. And as said, in their biggest market Japan, they are making a more accessible version without turbo and an auto CVT box, part of the 25000 units that they need to shift as it will have the bodyshell and engine block.

That's interesting and a shame from my enthusiasts perspective. I want them all to be full blooded rally reps.

I would have thought they needed the turbo and stuff like intercooler water spray on all 25k cars built for homogolation. Not the end of the world. I'm just chuffed Toyota are building cars like this again.

I'm pretty sure all they really need is to use the basic shell of a production model these days. Just look at all the other rally cars these days - basically none of them have equivalent road models, most don't even offer a 4wd version for the road. Citroen dominated rally for years in the 2000's with cars like the Xsara and C4, yet as far as I'm aware offered no performance or 4wd road versions, because they didnt need to.

The rules changed in 1997 I believe and that was basically when the true homologation models stopped, until the Yaris. Before 1997 the cars used in rallying were alot more similar to the road going versions. If you bought an Evo/Impreza/GT-Four/Cosworth it basically looked exactly like the rally car (obviously the rally version were much developed underneath), not the case anymore.

[Treacle_GT4]

While I agree that many of the required number will be sold in Asia, I think some people are maybe underestimating the importance of the European market for this car.

You have to consider that by far the biggest interest in rallying worldwide comes from Europe, it may not be as popular in the UK as it once was but in some countries it is still a very big sport and well supported. Even Toyota themselves ran their rally teams from Europe under TTE (Toyota Team Europe). This has always been an important market for homologation models.

There are also alot of amateur rally teams here who will be excited to get hold of a Yaris with the potential it offers them for club level rallying, most of them are stuck using the 90's rally cars as a base as they have no good modern options. When stripped out of all the crap a modern car requires, one of these Yaris is going to be a substantially lighter 4wd rally car then almost all of the other options.

There is perhaps a more discerning group of buyers for a car of this type in Europe who will want the car for its rally pedigree. There have been no true homologation cars in over 20 years so these sort of buyers have been somewhat starved of options and probably miss the days they used to own homologation models in the 90's. Its likely they will be happy to pay more for the privilege than Asian buyers who mostly just see it as just a hot hatchback.

I am a classic example of this myself, I own a 1994 GT-Four which is heavily modified for track, 530bhp, full stripped, fully caged etc - now far too hardcore to be a viable car for regular road use. In lots of ways I miss the days I had a more standard version (and other similar cars) to batter down the back lanes, and I'm seriously considering buying a Yaris as it should offer the same fun, while actually still being a pretty sensible modern car for normal road use when you just want to commute to work or run to the shops.

Edited by Treacle_GT4 on Saturday 18th January 11:06

[Onehp]

Zarco said:

Onehp said:

Agree. And as said, in their biggest market Japan, they are making a more accessible version without turbo and an auto CVT box, part of the 25000 units that they need to shift as it will have the bodyshell and engine block.

That's interesting and a shame from my enthusiasts perspective. I want them all to be full blooded rally reps.

I would have thought they needed the turbo and stuff like intercooler water spray on all 25k cars built for homogolation. Not the end of the world. I'm just chuffed Toyota are building cars like this again.

As I understood, they need to shift 25k of the body per year, and 2,5k of the full monty one.

Edited by Onehp on Saturday 18th January 13:51