Subaru vs bike head on collision.
Discussion
ZX10R NIN said:
This guy made a mistake he could've been driving a Fiesta the result would've been the same he's lost his liberty & the biker is going to be spend years rehabilitating (if at all) due to his back injuries.
"Chairman of SIDC", "stickered up car" and "out on a hoon" will have been seen as aggravating circumstances.Electro1980 said:
It’s not for “getting one corner wrong”. It’s for poor driving that resulted in the serious injury of another road user. It was clearly and easily avoidable, but the driver was going too fast for the conditions that put someone in hospital for a long time.
And we don’t know what was shown on the rest of the dash cam footage. On the “three bikers locked up” thread. One of the legally informed posters says there has to be repeated, intended and serious breaches to get a Dangerous Driving conviction.The corner was bad enough, but the failure to make any steering attempt to miss the bike was just insane. I suspect there is plenty of poor driving on that dash cam.
popeyewhite said:
ericmcn said:
Enjoyed that.ericmcn said:
popeyewhite said:
ericmcn said:
Enjoyed that.? Could overly stiff suspension have contributed to his going wide, eg overly stiff after-market springs etc
Edited by Dont like rolls on Sunday 12th January 22:14
jsf said:
You get more retardation if you brake hard but not hard enough to trigger ABS, most people can't do that though, especially in a moment of panic.
er, no you don't! Modern ABS will keep all FOUR tyres at limit slip, you can't do that as a driver with just one brake pedal! What you don't want to do if you can avoid it is to steer and brake, although ABS does allow that to happen, it prioritises stability and directional control above retardation and so steering while braking extends the stopping distance (ie reduces the negative acceleration)Modern ABS is expressely designed and calibrated to work when you mash the brake pedal to the floor as hard as you can, straight away!
Max_Torque said:
er, no you don't! Modern ABS will keep all FOUR tyres at limit slip, you can't do that as a driver with just one brake pedal! What you don't want to do if you can avoid it is to steer and brake, although ABS does allow that to happen, it prioritises stability and directional control above retardation and so steering while braking extends the stopping distance (ie reduces the negative acceleration)
Modern ABS is expressely designed and calibrated to work when you mash the brake pedal to the floor as hard as you can, straight away!
.... and still allow you to steer so you don’t have to drive straight into the oncoming bike.Modern ABS is expressely designed and calibrated to work when you mash the brake pedal to the floor as hard as you can, straight away!
Dont like rolls said:
ericmcn said:
popeyewhite said:
ericmcn said:
Enjoyed that.? Could overly stiff suspension have contributed to his going wide, eg overly stiff after-market springs etc
popeyewhite said:
When the driver eventually turned the wheel the car straightened up fine. Except it was on the wrong side of the road.
Eg, skipping on a rough surface, stiff suspension and low profiles can be big problem on rough roads, it just takes a few "ripples".A light car with compliant suspension and tyres with some side walls can monster a heavy "stiff" car on low profiles/country roads.
Edited by Dont like rolls on Sunday 12th January 23:57
Max_Torque said:
jsf said:
You get more retardation if you brake hard but not hard enough to trigger ABS, most people can't do that though, especially in a moment of panic.
er, no you don't! Modern ABS will keep all FOUR tyres at limit slip, you can't do that as a driver with just one brake pedal! What you don't want to do if you can avoid it is to steer and brake, although ABS does allow that to happen, it prioritises stability and directional control above retardation and so steering while braking extends the stopping distance (ie reduces the negative acceleration)Modern ABS is expressely designed and calibrated to work when you mash the brake pedal to the floor as hard as you can, straight away!
Max_Torque said:
jsf said:
You get more retardation if you brake hard but not hard enough to trigger ABS, most people can't do that though, especially in a moment of panic.
er, no you don't! Modern ABS will keep all FOUR tyres at limit slip, you can't do that as a driver with just one brake pedal! What you don't want to do if you can avoid it is to steer and brake, although ABS does allow that to happen, it prioritises stability and directional control above retardation and so steering while braking extends the stopping distance (ie reduces the negative acceleration)Modern ABS is expressely designed and calibrated to work when you mash the brake pedal to the floor as hard as you can, straight away!
This is very easy to demonstrate, go to an airfield or circuit and try it yourself.
ABS is popular on road cars for its ability to enable most drivers to maintain control of the vehicle whilst slowing the car in an emergency, especially in low grip conditions. It's more idiot proof than a manual system. Often in snow, the car will stop significantly faster with no ABS but will be harder to control for most people.
The latest Bosch motorsport systems are often used now where allowed as they offer very high speed reaction compared to OEM systems and are more tailored to running at the peak grip level of the tyre, they offer very consistent performance which can pay dividends over a race distance.
jsf said:
Max_Torque said:
jsf said:
You get more retardation if you brake hard but not hard enough to trigger ABS, most people can't do that though, especially in a moment of panic.
er, no you don't! Modern ABS will keep all FOUR tyres at limit slip, you can't do that as a driver with just one brake pedal! What you don't want to do if you can avoid it is to steer and brake, although ABS does allow that to happen, it prioritises stability and directional control above retardation and so steering while braking extends the stopping distance (ie reduces the negative acceleration)Modern ABS is expressely designed and calibrated to work when you mash the brake pedal to the floor as hard as you can, straight away!
Electro1980 said:
It’s not for “getting one corner wrong”. It’s for poor driving that resulted in the serious injury of another road user. It was clearly and easily avoidable, but the driver was going too fast for the conditions that put someone in hospital for a long time.
We don't know he was going too fast for the conditions.Dr Jekyll said:
Electro1980 said:
It’s not for “getting one corner wrong”. It’s for poor driving that resulted in the serious injury of another road user. It was clearly and easily avoidable, but the driver was going too fast for the conditions that put someone in hospital for a long time.
We don't know he was going too fast for the conditions.The only other option is that the driver intentionally crossed in to the other lane.
All the reasoning going on boils down to two things, firstly one of the above and secondly people trying to show why it will never be them. “Didn’t know the road” and all this talk of how the driver should have done this or that is just people saying “it would never happen to me”. If you drive too fast and without thought of what might be round the corner it doesn’t matter how skilled you are.
I’m not sure why some people are overthinking this.
It’s an all-too-common example of “s
t driving”. Most of the time the driver gets away with it, sometimes he doesn’t and things like this happen. Very fortunate for the Motorcyclist (or very good planning from him) that he was kitted with an airbagotherwise it could easily have been death by dangerous driving. And that could have meant a whole two years in jail for the driver....
It’s an all-too-common example of “s
t driving”. Most of the time the driver gets away with it, sometimes he doesn’t and things like this happen. Very fortunate for the Motorcyclist (or very good planning from him) that he was kitted with an airbagotherwise it could easily have been death by dangerous driving. And that could have meant a whole two years in jail for the driver....jsf said:
The peak grip available from a tyre is achieved before it is locked at the slip limit of the tyre. Once the tyre locks, the point at which the ABS starts to become active, you have lost some retardation ability and you will not match that level of grip whilst the ABS is pulsing. The problem is most people can't drive to that level of control.
This is very easy to demonstrate, go to an airfield or circuit and try it yourself.
ABS is popular on road cars for its ability to enable most drivers to maintain control of the vehicle whilst slowing the car in an emergency, especially in low grip conditions. It's more idiot proof than a manual system. Often in snow, the car will stop significantly faster with no ABS but will be harder to control for most people.
The latest Bosch motorsport systems are often used now where allowed as they offer very high speed reaction compared to OEM systems and are more tailored to running at the peak grip level of the tyre, they offer very consistent performance which can pay dividends over a race distance.
er, right. So a human can keep a tyre at limit slip with one brake pedal and a control loop that has no direct feedback of slip and operates at around 3 hz, whereas some specifically designed electronics, driving specifically designed actuators with specificly designed sensors and models to calculate individual slip in real time with a control bandwidth of 1 KHz can't?This is very easy to demonstrate, go to an airfield or circuit and try it yourself.
ABS is popular on road cars for its ability to enable most drivers to maintain control of the vehicle whilst slowing the car in an emergency, especially in low grip conditions. It's more idiot proof than a manual system. Often in snow, the car will stop significantly faster with no ABS but will be harder to control for most people.
The latest Bosch motorsport systems are often used now where allowed as they offer very high speed reaction compared to OEM systems and are more tailored to running at the peak grip level of the tyre, they offer very consistent performance which can pay dividends over a race distance.
I spent 12 years doing vehicle dynamics, and we lost the ability to be "better" than ABS in around 2007, which is when real time yaw control and dynamic slip adaption came in, ie the system could brake all four wheels at limit slip, and it could even modify that slip value to find the the optimum slip co-efficient for the tyre at any given moment ie it wasn't locked into using a single "optimum slip" number in it's calibration (which is why you'll find your ABS stops significantly better the SECOND time you activate it under any given conditions....)
The latest Bosch motorsport systems (which i calibrate) use the road hardware, but they simply introduce a calibration, usually set via a driver interface potentiometer that means the driver can decide between "Pick low" (max stability because there is no cross axle yaw) and "Pick high" (Max retardation because each wheel is braked individually to max mU) Road systems as i mention, driven by non skilled drivers always are set for Pick Low and maximum stability over max retardation (Also because frontal impacts are much more surviveable and are therefore prefered)
CoolHands said:
Oh dear, you haven’t met our resident F1 expert, have you
Who pissed on your chips?? lol!Sorry if you feel threatened, but i am an Expert and i can back that up with 25 years direct experience. If you find that a problem then that's your problem!!
However i am able to listen and learn (which is why im an expert) if you disagree with anything i have written technically, then speak up, lets hear what you have to say, i'm listening, but you will have to be able to clearly explain your point, simply insulting me isn't going to cut the mustard i'm afraid........
Max_Torque said:
CoolHands said:
Oh dear, you haven’t met our resident F1 expert, have you
Who pissed on your chips?? lol!Sorry if you feel threatened, but i am an Expert and i can back that up with 25 years direct experience. If you find that a problem then that's your problem!!
However i am able to listen and learn (which is why im an expert) if you disagree with anything i have written technically, then speak up, lets hear what you have to say, i'm listening, but you will have to be able to clearly explain your point, simply insulting me isn't going to cut the mustard i'm afraid........
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