Subaru vs bike head on collision.
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
jsf said:
The peak grip available from a tyre is achieved before it is locked at the slip limit of the tyre. Once the tyre locks, the point at which the ABS starts to become active, you have lost some retardation ability and you will not match that level of grip whilst the ABS is pulsing. The problem is most people can't drive to that level of control.
This is very easy to demonstrate, go to an airfield or circuit and try it yourself.
ABS is popular on road cars for its ability to enable most drivers to maintain control of the vehicle whilst slowing the car in an emergency, especially in low grip conditions. It's more idiot proof than a manual system. Often in snow, the car will stop significantly faster with no ABS but will be harder to control for most people.
The latest Bosch motorsport systems are often used now where allowed as they offer very high speed reaction compared to OEM systems and are more tailored to running at the peak grip level of the tyre, they offer very consistent performance which can pay dividends over a race distance.
er, right. So a human can keep a tyre at limit slip with one brake pedal and a control loop that has no direct feedback of slip and operates at around 3 hz, whereas some specifically designed electronics, driving specifically designed actuators with specificly designed sensors and models to calculate individual slip in real time with a control bandwidth of 1 KHz can't?This is very easy to demonstrate, go to an airfield or circuit and try it yourself.
ABS is popular on road cars for its ability to enable most drivers to maintain control of the vehicle whilst slowing the car in an emergency, especially in low grip conditions. It's more idiot proof than a manual system. Often in snow, the car will stop significantly faster with no ABS but will be harder to control for most people.
The latest Bosch motorsport systems are often used now where allowed as they offer very high speed reaction compared to OEM systems and are more tailored to running at the peak grip level of the tyre, they offer very consistent performance which can pay dividends over a race distance.
I spent 12 years doing vehicle dynamics, and we lost the ability to be "better" than ABS in around 2007, which is when real time yaw control and dynamic slip adaption came in, ie the system could brake all four wheels at limit slip, and it could even modify that slip value to find the the optimum slip co-efficient for the tyre at any given moment ie it wasn't locked into using a single "optimum slip" number in it's calibration (which is why you'll find your ABS stops significantly better the SECOND time you activate it under any given conditions....)
The latest Bosch motorsport systems (which i calibrate) use the road hardware, but they simply introduce a calibration, usually set via a driver interface potentiometer that means the driver can decide between "Pick low" (max stability because there is no cross axle yaw) and "Pick high" (Max retardation because each wheel is braked individually to max mU) Road systems as i mention, driven by non skilled drivers always are set for Pick Low and maximum stability over max retardation (Also because frontal impacts are much more surviveable and are therefore prefered)
Electro1980 said:
Did he make it safely round the corner? No. Therefore he was going too fast. Wether those conditions were caused primarily by the road layout, the car setup, the drivers skill, knowledge or attention is irrelevant. The simple fact is if the driver had been going slower he would be a free man and the biker would have got home unscathed.
The problem with just saying "too fast" is that is always the case in ANY accident. I mean, otherwise, why didn't you just stop before you hit them?!?Because accidents are not regular occurances, if we were to drive at a speed when it would be possible to stop under ANY circumstances, then our road system would just grind to a halt.
Max_Torque said:
The problem with just saying "too fast" is that is always the case in ANY accident. I mean, otherwise, why didn't you just stop before you hit them?!?
Because accidents are not regular occurances, if we were to drive at a speed when it would be possible to stop under ANY circumstances, then our road system would just grind to a halt.
A SMART Motorway then Because accidents are not regular occurances, if we were to drive at a speed when it would be possible to stop under ANY circumstances, then our road system would just grind to a halt.
Mastodon2 said:
That wasn't "Subaru washout" or "4WD understeer", it was purely bad driving. To try and excuse it as anything else is just making excuses.
On a "run", driving beyond his capabilities, not reading the road, panicking and running wide.
100% agree with this. The buck stops with the driver, unless the car had a failure of some kind that had gone unnoticed.On a "run", driving beyond his capabilities, not reading the road, panicking and running wide.
Edited by Mastodon2 on Saturday 11th January 06:56
Electro1980 said:
The only other option is that the driver intentionally crossed in to the other lane.
We can see the bike in the distance (but we know to look for it). I'm wondering if he simply didn't see it (whereas he may have seen a car) and so let the car run wide using all the road rather than yanking it back into lane.
ZX10R NIN said:
To be honest most agree that the driver misjudged the corner, it wasn't his speed/car/tyres etc just him not reading the road.
The question for me is, even if he misjudged that (seems simple) corner why did it go so far over and not be easy to pull back ?(My bet is not looking)
Hungrymc said:
Electro1980 said:
It’s not for “getting one corner wrong”. It’s for poor driving that resulted in the serious injury of another road user. It was clearly and easily avoidable, but the driver was going too fast for the conditions that put someone in hospital for a long time.
And we don’t know what was shown on the rest of the dash cam footage. On the “three bikers locked up” thread. One of the legally informed posters says there has to be repeated, intended and serious breaches to get a Dangerous Driving conviction.The corner was bad enough, but the failure to make any steering attempt to miss the bike was just insane. I suspect there is plenty of poor driving on that dash cam.
it's quite a common part of the human aspect - often in a intense / scary situation you just freeze up.
We've probably all misjudged a corner in the past at some point, i certainly have, and I think most of us would be lying if we say we haven't.
We've just been fortunate no-one was coming the other way at the time....
Poor biker, and by some aspects poor car driver, but obviously cars fault and yes he was an idiot.
Max_Torque said:
CoolHands said:
Oh dear, you haven’t met our resident F1 expert, have you 
Who pissed on your chips?? lol!Sorry if you feel threatened, but i am an Expert and i can back that up with 25 years direct experience. If you find that a problem then that's your problem!!
However i am able to listen and learn (which is why im an expert) if you disagree with anything i have written technically, then speak up, lets hear what you have to say, i'm listening, but you will have to be able to clearly explain your point, simply insulting me isn't going to cut the mustard i'm afraid........
Horrible event to have happened and hope the biker makes a speedy recovery.
Like others on here, 10PS's story had a big impact on me and how I felt and approached road driving. among many other aspects of that case, one of the things that struck me about 10PS's incident were witness statements from other road users who had been overtaken who had described 10PS as driving like a lunatic or words to that effect.
That bit as much as anything else sticks with me as like many I'm sure, I've had people flashing their headlight at me when I've overtaken them seemingly entirely safely. No doubt they thought I was a lunatic and using the road as a race track. I often wonder about how other's would describe my driving vs. how I perceive my driving, particularly if that conversation was happening in court. It wouldn't sound pretty no matter who is right or wrong. I don't know if that was a factor or not in this case but I know at face value, modified performance car, owner's club, driving in convoy etc. It does conjure up an image whether it should or not. It's hard to know how much this stuff influences judges and jurors. Like I say, no idea in this case, I just know 10PS's case notes were interesting in that regard.
Unfortunately nobody wins from stuff like this, but hopefully most reading this will at least give thought to whether it could be them causing this kind of accident and whether there are steps they can take to avoid it. Simply, stating 'crap driving' or saying that you'd have steered off the road is a bit lightweight in terms of analysis.
Like others on here, 10PS's story had a big impact on me and how I felt and approached road driving. among many other aspects of that case, one of the things that struck me about 10PS's incident were witness statements from other road users who had been overtaken who had described 10PS as driving like a lunatic or words to that effect.
That bit as much as anything else sticks with me as like many I'm sure, I've had people flashing their headlight at me when I've overtaken them seemingly entirely safely. No doubt they thought I was a lunatic and using the road as a race track. I often wonder about how other's would describe my driving vs. how I perceive my driving, particularly if that conversation was happening in court. It wouldn't sound pretty no matter who is right or wrong. I don't know if that was a factor or not in this case but I know at face value, modified performance car, owner's club, driving in convoy etc. It does conjure up an image whether it should or not. It's hard to know how much this stuff influences judges and jurors. Like I say, no idea in this case, I just know 10PS's case notes were interesting in that regard.
Unfortunately nobody wins from stuff like this, but hopefully most reading this will at least give thought to whether it could be them causing this kind of accident and whether there are steps they can take to avoid it. Simply, stating 'crap driving' or saying that you'd have steered off the road is a bit lightweight in terms of analysis.
A1VDY said:
The problem here with talk of vanishing point, heel and toe, racing line, cornering at 0.8g ect ect is that we're talking of the public roads here.
All this b
ks needs to be kept for the track..
The vanishing point technique is exactly what could have prevented this crash. I find it gives me an easy way to find a suitable speed for cornering. All this b
ks needs to be kept for the track.. Driving Test Tips - Limit Point
While I learnt to use the limit point at superbike school, I find the limit point's more useful on the road than on track. Also, I know the IAM and RoSPA teach the limit point primarily for road driving. I saw it's been discussed on PH a bit, but wonder why the limit point doesn't seem to be well known?
Salted_Peanut said:
The vanishing point technique is exactly what could have prevented this crash. I find it gives me an easy way to find a suitable speed for cornering.
Driving Test Tips - Limit Point
While I learnt to use the limit point at superbike school, I find the limit point's more useful on the road than on track. Also, I know the IAM and RoSPA teach the limit point primarily for road driving. I saw it's been discussed on PH a bit, but wonder why the limit point doesn't seem to be well known?
The phrase I hear said more often here is "Always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear", which would have also worked here.Driving Test Tips - Limit Point
While I learnt to use the limit point at superbike school, I find the limit point's more useful on the road than on track. Also, I know the IAM and RoSPA teach the limit point primarily for road driving. I saw it's been discussed on PH a bit, but wonder why the limit point doesn't seem to be well known?
Gad-Westy said:
as like many I'm sure, I've had people flashing their headlight at me when I've overtaken them seemingly entirely safely. No doubt they thought I was a lunatic
I came upon the scene of an accident many years ago out on a test drive with a customer and we stopped to see if all was OK, which it was. Then a car that I'd overtaken earlier in a seemingly ordinary and innocuous manner turned up, the driver got out, assumed everything was my fault and started ranting and offering to bear witness! Max_Torque said:
Electro1980 said:
Did he make it safely round the corner? No. Therefore he was going too fast. Wether those conditions were caused primarily by the road layout, the car setup, the drivers skill, knowledge or attention is irrelevant. The simple fact is if the driver had been going slower he would be a free man and the biker would have got home unscathed.
The problem with just saying "too fast" is that is always the case in ANY accident. I mean, otherwise, why didn't you just stop before you hit them?!?Because accidents are not regular occurances, if we were to drive at a speed when it would be possible to stop under ANY circumstances, then our road system would just grind to a halt.
I didn’t say that. This is not a deer jumping out of a hedge, a brick being thrown off a bridge or some other totally unpredictable situation. This was totally predictable and avoidable had he been driving at a speed where he could make it round a corner. This isn’t about the driver failing to brake in time for some unpredictable event. He failed to navigate a corner.
Gad-Westy said:
Horrible event to have happened and hope the biker makes a speedy recovery.
Like others on here, 10PS's story had a big impact on me and how I felt and approached road driving. among many other aspects of that case, one of the things that struck me about 10PS's incident were witness statements from other road users who had been overtaken who had described 10PS as driving like a lunatic or words to that effect.
Also remember a witness statement is most likely going to be from a road user with little knowledge of advanced driving techniques and often incomplete knowledge of the highway code.Like others on here, 10PS's story had a big impact on me and how I felt and approached road driving. among many other aspects of that case, one of the things that struck me about 10PS's incident were witness statements from other road users who had been overtaken who had described 10PS as driving like a lunatic or words to that effect.
This is very nice thread to read on the the consideration of your own driving based on 10PS story - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
xjay1337 said:
768 said:
Electro1980 said:
This isn’t about the driver failing to brake in time for some unpredictable event. He failed to navigate a corner.
But not because he was going too fast.
I genuinely think this is sad. To me I've come across roads like this in Yorkshire and Wales. Blind crests into a bend and as a driver my concentration is 100+% on these type situations and you're not 100%sure what's on the other side. This is where this guys gone wrong. He hasn't been concentrating fully, gone on to the wrong side of the road and has frozen at the site of the oncoming biker.
I hope both sides can eventually get over this. Both families will be severely affected over this and I wish them all the best!!
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