Subaru vs bike head on collision.

[Driver101]

popeyewhite said:

Driver101 said:

popeyewhite said:

Driver101 said:

popeyewhite said:

BrassMan said:

You can hear the tyres skid as he starts to run wide, .

No you can't.

There's higher quality videos on YouTube.

It sounds as if there is a couple of chirps mid corner as the car looks as if it's bouncing a bit. The brakes go on after this.

You can hear the driver gasp mid corner too.

Perhaps you could link the clip?

Here is one.


https://youtu.be/XUK16hxemKA

Thanks. I can't identify any road/car noise on that clip that's not on the first?

Seems much clearer to me.

[Driver101]

M4CK 1 said:

Same question to you?

IMO I would've said 70 mph should've been a safe speed.

He wasn't actually doing 70mph. He went as high as 67mph before the corner, then lifted off.

The speed displayed by dashcams always lags behind real speed and he was decelerating on the way in.

[Electro1980]

M4CK 1 said:

Captain Smerc said:

M4CK 1 said:

Electro1980 said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Electro1980 said:

It’s not for “getting one corner wrong”. It’s for poor driving that resulted in the serious injury of another road user. It was clearly and easily avoidable, but the driver was going too fast for the conditions that put someone in hospital for a long time.

We don't know he was going too fast for the conditions.

Did he make it safely round the corner? No. Therefore he was going too fast. Wether those conditions were caused primarily by the road layout, the car setup, the drivers skill, knowledge or attention is irrelevant. The simple fact is if the driver had been going slower he would be a free man and the biker would have got home unscathed.

The only other option is that the driver intentionally crossed in to the other lane.

All the reasoning going on boils down to two things, firstly one of the above and secondly people trying to show why it will never be them. “Didn’t know the road” and all this talk of how the driver should have done this or that is just people saying “it would never happen to me”. If you drive too fast and without thought of what might be round the corner it doesn’t matter how skilled you are.

I would like to know what speed you think was safe for the corner??? From what I can see he's doing 66 just before the corner and comes out at 55mph, conditions are dry and clear!!

Perhaps if he was going slower he may have stayed on his own side of the road.

Same question to you?

IMO I would've said 70 mph should've been a safe speed.

Slow enough that he made it round the corner without ending up on the wrong side of the road and putting someone in hospital. I have no idea what number that is, but slower than he was going clearly.

[M4CK 1]

Driver101 said:

M4CK 1 said:

Same question to you?

IMO I would've said 70 mph should've been a safe speed.

He wasn't actually doing 70mph. He went as high as 67mph before the corner, then lifted off.

The speed displayed by dashcams always lags behind real speed and he was decelerating on the way in.

Not sure what your point is. OK he was going 70 prior to the corner and then slowed to 67 and then 55. That's clear that up.
My question was, what speed was safe??
To many people saying his speed contributed to running onto the wrong side of the road, so I'd like their opinion.
Me, personally, his speed wasn't the contributing factor, it was either down to a lack of concentration or lack of knowledge on how to drive a country road!!

[768]

Electro1980 said:

Slow enough that he made it round the corner without ending up on the wrong side of the road and putting someone in hospital. I have no idea what number that is, but slower than he was going clearly.

You have no idea if he was browsing PH on his phone. He could've been doing 10mph and caused a head on there.

[M4CK 1]

Electro1980 said:

M4CK 1 said:

Captain Smerc said:

M4CK 1 said:

Electro1980 said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Electro1980 said:

It’s not for “getting one corner wrong”. It’s for poor driving that resulted in the serious injury of another road user. It was clearly and easily avoidable, but the driver was going too fast for the conditions that put someone in hospital for a long time.

We don't know he was going too fast for the conditions.

Did he make it safely round the corner? No. Therefore he was going too fast. Wether those conditions were caused primarily by the road layout, the car setup, the drivers skill, knowledge or attention is irrelevant. The simple fact is if the driver had been going slower he would be a free man and the biker would have got home unscathed.

The only other option is that the driver intentionally crossed in to the other lane.

All the reasoning going on boils down to two things, firstly one of the above and secondly people trying to show why it will never be them. “Didn’t know the road” and all this talk of how the driver should have done this or that is just people saying “it would never happen to me”. If you drive too fast and without thought of what might be round the corner it doesn’t matter how skilled you are.

I would like to know what speed you think was safe for the corner??? From what I can see he's doing 66 just before the corner and comes out at 55mph, conditions are dry and clear!!

Perhaps if he was going slower he may have stayed on his own side of the road.

Same question to you?

IMO I would've said 70 mph should've been a safe speed.

Slow enough that he made it round the corner without ending up on the wrong side of the road and putting someone in hospital. I have no idea what number that is, but slower than he was going clearly.

As a driver surely you would know what speed you'd take this corner. It's dry and clear and you're looking at the blind corner approaching!!
Surely you have an idea??
It's very easy to blame speed, but watching this chap drive, I would say his driving technique was to blame!!

[Esceptico]

The mental gymnastics from some posters on here to claim he wasn’t going too fast beggars belief.

We can’t see whether he steered left on entering the corner but having driven half a million km or more in my life I can’t recall ever “forgetting” to steer. One can hear chirping of the tyres so he was definitely doing something.

The more likely conclusion is that he was going too fast and when he tried to turn the car when straight on. It doesn’t matter that a skilled driver could have taken the corner at the same speed or higher (in the same car). He misjudged the corner and once you go across the centre line (at which point the camber goes in the other direction) it is easy to unsettle a car (especially I would imagine one with stiff suspension and very low profile tyres) leading to more understeer. Panic reactions like slamming on the brakes probably made it worse.

Had he slowed down considerably before the corner, even with st driving he would not have ended up on the other side of the road.

It is possible that a newer car with a much better safety net might have been able to compensate for his st driving and allowed him to get around the corner at that speed even with his poor inputs.

It would be interesting to hear what was said in court ie the driver’s version of events and also other witness statements.

[Dont like rolls]

Open question to those who know ?

Is the transcript/evidence published on line after conviction in such cases ?

[Eyersey1234]

One of my workmates killed a biker when he aquaplaned on a bend in pouring rain and slid across the road. He was prosecuted but was found not guilty of death by careless driving because an expert witness couldn't say what a safe speed would have been. He was lucky to get away with it.

[Driver101]

M4CK 1 said:

Driver101 said:

M4CK 1 said:

Same question to you?

IMO I would've said 70 mph should've been a safe speed.

He wasn't actually doing 70mph. He went as high as 67mph before the corner, then lifted off.

The speed displayed by dashcams always lags behind real speed and he was decelerating on the way in.

Not sure what your point is. OK he was going 70 prior to the corner and then slowed to 67 and then 55. That's clear that up.
My question was, what speed was safe??
To many people saying his speed contributed to running onto the wrong side of the road, so I'd like their opinion.
Me, personally, his speed wasn't the contributing factor, it was either down to a lack of concentration or lack of knowledge on how to drive a country road!!

The point was he wasn't going as fast as 70mph as many people have quoted as being the correct speed through the various threads on here. We've had as high as 120mph closing speed at impact!

That car should have easily managed that corner at the speed he was going. I would expect a normal family hatch to take that bend without an issue.

You can see the car bouncing and hear the tyres chirping. I think poor maintenance, cheap/knackered suspension or tyres all played a role in the incident.

All of which the driver is still responsible.

[Dont like rolls]

Driver101 said:

The point was he wasn't going as fast as 70mph as many people have quoted as being the correct speed through the various threads on here. We've had as high as 120mph closing speed at impact!

That car should have easily managed that corner at the speed he was going. I would expect a normal family hatch to take that bend without an issue.

You can see the car bouncing and hear the tyres chirping. I think poor maintenance, cheap/knackered suspension or tyres all played a role in the incident.

All of which the driver is still responsible.

Looking at the car I would not think that at all, it might look st but my bet it has a stupidly stiff track set-up unsuitable for the road and lack of attention to what matters.the road ahead.

[M4CK 1]

Esceptico said:

The mental gymnastics from some posters on here to claim he wasn’t going too fast beggars belief.

We can’t see whether he steered left on entering the corner but having driven half a million km or more in my life I can’t recall ever “forgetting” to steer. One can hear chirping of the tyres so he was definitely doing something.

The more likely conclusion is that he was going too fast and when he tried to turn the car when straight on. It doesn’t matter that a skilled driver could have taken the corner at the same speed or higher (in the same car). He misjudged the corner and once you go across the centre line (at which point the camber goes in the other direction) it is easy to unsettle a car (especially I would imagine one with stiff suspension and very low profile tyres) leading to more understeer. Panic reactions like slamming on the brakes probably made it worse.

Had he slowed down considerably before the corner, even with st driving he would not have ended up on the other side of the road.

It is possible that a newer car with a much better safety net might have been able to compensate for his st driving and allowed him to get around the corner at that speed even with his poor inputs.

It would be interesting to hear what was said in court ie the driver’s version of events and also other witness statements.

You say you've driven 1/2million km. Sorry that doesn't really ring with me. You could've done all that on a motorway.

I'm not going to start bragging about my driving life I've not even going to calculate how many miles I've done.
I've been driving for 23 years on a mixture of roads.
The car he was travelling in was more than capable of going around the corner in a safe manner at the speed he was travelling, it was his misjudgement that was the issue and when he saw the biker he froze instead of moving back onto the correct lane.

[Bumblebee7]

Driver101 said:

The point was he wasn't going as fast as 70mph as many people have quoted as being the correct speed through the various threads on here. We've had as high as 120mph closing speed at impact!

I'm sure that referred to the biker's speed + the car's speed. And although that's too high, I'd guess 80mph wouldn't be far from the truth.

[anonymous-user]

Looking at the state of the road kerb I think he's been on this road before and has always gone to the very edge on the middle even over, the follow car does, just this time he got caught out as various circumstances took hold.

[nickfrog]

Esceptico said:

The mental gymnastics from some posters on here to claim he wasn’t going too fast beggars belief.
.

It's very weird indeed. Surely people can accept that he was going over the speed at which the front outside tyre lost adhesion, hence the understeer.

[M4CK 1]

Bumblebee7 said:

Driver101 said:

The point was he wasn't going as fast as 70mph as many people have quoted as being the correct speed through the various threads on here. We've had as high as 120mph closing speed at impact!

I'm sure that referred to the biker's speed + the car's speed. And although that's too high, I'd guess 80mph wouldn't be far from the truth.

Having slowly go through the clip as the subaru crosses the white line the biker is on his front wheel. I'm guessing he was going pretty fast. The subaru driver had dropped to just over 40 at point of contact.
In some ways with the biker already in the air, on his front wheel meant the impact was not as heavy and probably why he survived.

[carl_w]

Speculation: one of the news reports (I now can't find which) said that the dash cams had been activated shortly before the crash.

Distracted by fiddling with dash cams?

[anonymous-user]

Max_Torque said:

The latest Bosch motorsport systems (which i calibrate) use the road hardware, but they simply introduce a calibration, usually set via a driver interface potentiometer that means the driver can decide between "Pick low" (max stability because there is no cross axle yaw) and "Pick high" (Max retardation because each wheel is braked individually to max mU) Road systems as i mention, driven by non skilled drivers always are set for Pick Low and maximum stability over max retardation (Also because frontal impacts are much more surviveable and are therefore prefered)

So do you therefore accept that a road biased ABS system is sacrificing some retardation performance to improve stability control for Mr average?

That by definition means you are not at the limit of the potential tyre grip, does it not?

For a separate thread, but i might do some datalogging and post this up as it's an interesting subject in its own right. I have an active centre diff controller i map myself and tune during the events i compete in, this uses the four wheel speed inputs as part of its control strategy input. The strategy then averages out the front and rear wheel speeds and sets the centre diff lock to maintain the amount of % slip i want to achieve between the front and rear axles, to maximise traction and set the chassis balance i want.

Under braking i can map how much centre diff lock i want to use to help maximise the tyre performance by using the centre diff to stop the tyres individually locking, it's quite aggressive on the centre diff but quite a powerful tool.

Part of this kit is the ability to log the wheel speeds, so it would really easy for me to compare an ABS triggered and threshold braked stop and compare the two. Below is the data just showing brake info, i have all the various slip rates and lock rates for the diff unit logging also.

[mikeyw85]

BrassMan said:

You can hear the tyres skid as he starts to run wide,

Yeah I can hear that, mid corner, 18-19 seconds into video. Can't ehar on rear view cam but theres too much tyre/wind rumble.

[M4CK 1]

jsf said:

Max_Torque said:

The latest Bosch motorsport systems (which i calibrate) use the road hardware, but they simply introduce a calibration, usually set via a driver interface potentiometer that means the driver can decide between "Pick low" (max stability because there is no cross axle yaw) and "Pick high" (Max retardation because each wheel is braked individually to max mU) Road systems as i mention, driven by non skilled drivers always are set for Pick Low and maximum stability over max retardation (Also because frontal impacts are much more surviveable and are therefore prefered)

So do you therefore accept that a road biased ABS system is sacrificing some retardation performance to improve stability control for Mr average?

That by definition means you are not at the limit of the potential tyre grip, does it not?

For a separate thread, but i might do some datalogging and post this up as it's an interesting subject in its own right. I have an active centre diff controller i map myself and tune during the events i compete in, this uses the four wheel speed inputs as part of its control strategy input. The strategy then averages out the front and rear wheel speeds and sets the centre diff lock to maintain the amount of % slip i want to achieve between the front and rear axles, to maximise traction and set the chassis balance i want.

Under braking i can map how much centre diff lock i want to use to help maximise the tyre performance by using the centre diff to stop the tyres individually locking, it's quite aggressive on the centre diff but quite a powerful tool.

Part of this kit is the ability to log the wheel speeds, so it would really easy for me to compare an ABS triggered and threshold braked stop and compare the two. Below is the data just showing brake info, i have all the various slip rates and lock rates for the diff unit logging also.

You do know onto a hiding for nothing.
He will now be filing all his technological information to prove you wrong.
Good luck