Myth about former luxury car brands
Discussion
LuS1fer said:
However, the funniest thing is the superiority complex that some people believe such cars bestow upon you or the irrefutable belief that the car is better.
I thing what's funnier is the inferiority complex of those who find that the above is widespread.Balanced individuals don't give a s
t what people think of them through their choice of car, one way or the other. Deranged Rover said:
my vote went to a Mondeo as it was the only one she could have had with a V6 engine.
My mate did the same thing faced with a similar choice and ended up with a Mondeo Si 24v. All was great for a year or so, then the govt announced the CO2 based BIK system. In the last year, the tax bill tripled!
jakesmith said:
Having a chat with my parents about cars and they’re very much of the view that BMW and Mercedes are expensive luxury cars that cost a fortune to run.
jakesmith said:
They seem unaware that BMW and Mercedes etc moved significantly mass market about 20+ years ago and do several ranges of cars that compete with Fords and Vauxhall’s.
My parents (in their seventies) are of a similar view. My dad always coveted a BMW, but never bought one until he retired. He's on his third 1-series now, and he's delighted with it. There must be plenty of others of a similar age out there, who can remember the old days when BMWs and Mercs really were fancy, and are now delighted to be able to own one. BMW dealers must love them.
There's an interesting article here, highlighting just how much cheaper *all* cars have become over the last 25 years when adjusted for inflation, and how far BMW has reached into the mainstream.
https://driventowrite.com/2016/03/14/understanding...
The myth that the like of Mercedes, BMW, and AUDI were somehow "prestige" brands was well and truly dispelled for me when I was posted to Germany in 1989.
Every second taxi was a dull beige Mercedes, and obviously the BMWs and AUDIs were pretty ubiquitous on the streets of any German town. It was a long way from when we used to gawp in awe into the windows of Neyland Motors to see the latest Mercedes-Benz "limos" and small boys would literally wet their pants at the sight of a BMW 733i wafting through the local council estate.
I've never been swayed by brand image when buying a car. I just work out what size/class of car I need that does all I need it to do, then read reviews and crunch numbers to see which of the ones that I like the look of I can afford. Then I just buy something that is in budget and available.
Never owned anything with a "prestige" tag. Never felt the need, really. Although I'd never dismiss one just because of it's brand image, either.
Every second taxi was a dull beige Mercedes, and obviously the BMWs and AUDIs were pretty ubiquitous on the streets of any German town. It was a long way from when we used to gawp in awe into the windows of Neyland Motors to see the latest Mercedes-Benz "limos" and small boys would literally wet their pants at the sight of a BMW 733i wafting through the local council estate.
I've never been swayed by brand image when buying a car. I just work out what size/class of car I need that does all I need it to do, then read reviews and crunch numbers to see which of the ones that I like the look of I can afford. Then I just buy something that is in budget and available.
Never owned anything with a "prestige" tag. Never felt the need, really. Although I'd never dismiss one just because of it's brand image, either.
I was a young lad in the 80's and worked for a while in a Honda / Alfa dealers. Back then BMW were seen by us as low quality because of the European attitude towards trim levels. Unless spec'd BMW came with rubber floor mats, window winders etc. As Brits we were used to the base model being "L" luxury which meant carpets etc.
Things have definitely changed - when I was a kid, those with BMW's or Mercedes were generally pretty well off, but these days with their aggressive finance / lease deals they're the go to for most people in the UK.
VAG are the masters of the perceived quality thing - in some cases they're able to sell pretty much the same car at four different price points with the external design / plastics changing. Amazingly there are still people that buy into the Audi being the better product. For example a colleagues paid an extra £50 per month for an S Line A3 over a Golf GTD because it was deemed to be posher. £50 for four years is a long time especially when the Golf was better spec'd. He was also adamant that they were not the same car despite using the MQB chassis and having identical power outputs....
Brand perception can change - look how much an Octavia vRS is now compared to older models. It's definitely been pushed up market. If VAG can do it with Skoda, surely the likes of Kia and Hyundai can too? The latter has made a good start with the i30N despite people moaning about the plastics compared to a Golf (they didn't really bother me when I looked at one).
VAG are the masters of the perceived quality thing - in some cases they're able to sell pretty much the same car at four different price points with the external design / plastics changing. Amazingly there are still people that buy into the Audi being the better product. For example a colleagues paid an extra £50 per month for an S Line A3 over a Golf GTD because it was deemed to be posher. £50 for four years is a long time especially when the Golf was better spec'd. He was also adamant that they were not the same car despite using the MQB chassis and having identical power outputs....
Brand perception can change - look how much an Octavia vRS is now compared to older models. It's definitely been pushed up market. If VAG can do it with Skoda, surely the likes of Kia and Hyundai can too? The latter has made a good start with the i30N despite people moaning about the plastics compared to a Golf (they didn't really bother me when I looked at one).
What were considered 'luxury' brands are certainly far more affordable than they ever were. There are models which if you're looking at brand new or nearly new are not dissimilar to many 'normal' brands, even in terms of running and servicing costs.
There is a view that all Audi/BMW/Mercedes are somehow more exclusive than they are. I've had someone reference my, 'Fancy Mercedes' yet it's a 16 year old E Class with 140k on the clock. It was £4k and worth half that now!
I think it depends on the models you go for too. It seems that parts on E Class models and upwards, perhaps where models have more features, technology etc. become more pricey. For example I damaged a small control module which tells the car the battery voltage. Resulted in an error everytime I started the car. Little black box would have been £600 to replace, I got a used one for £90.
They CAN be expensive but aren't by default a killer to run. M/AMG/RS models aside that is.
There is a view that all Audi/BMW/Mercedes are somehow more exclusive than they are. I've had someone reference my, 'Fancy Mercedes' yet it's a 16 year old E Class with 140k on the clock. It was £4k and worth half that now!
I think it depends on the models you go for too. It seems that parts on E Class models and upwards, perhaps where models have more features, technology etc. become more pricey. For example I damaged a small control module which tells the car the battery voltage. Resulted in an error everytime I started the car. Little black box would have been £600 to replace, I got a used one for £90.
They CAN be expensive but aren't by default a killer to run. M/AMG/RS models aside that is.
Court_S said:
Things have definitely changed - when I was a kid, those with BMW's or Mercedes were generally pretty well off, but these days with their aggressive finance / lease deals they're the go to for most people in the UK.
VAG are the masters of the perceived quality thing - in some cases they're able to sell pretty much the same car at four different price points with the external design / plastics changing. Amazingly there are still people that buy into the Audi being the better product. For example a colleagues paid an extra £50 per month for an S Line A3 over a Golf GTD because it was deemed to be posher. £50 for four years is a long time especially when the Golf was better spec'd. He was also adamant that they were not the same car despite using the MQB chassis and having identical power outputs....
Brand perception can change - look how much an Octavia vRS is now compared to older models. It's definitely been pushed up market. If VAG can do it with Skoda, surely the likes of Kia and Hyundai can too? The latter has made a good start with the i30N despite people moaning about the plastics compared to a Golf (they didn't really bother me when I looked at one).
VAG are the masters of the perceived quality thing - in some cases they're able to sell pretty much the same car at four different price points with the external design / plastics changing. Amazingly there are still people that buy into the Audi being the better product. For example a colleagues paid an extra £50 per month for an S Line A3 over a Golf GTD because it was deemed to be posher. £50 for four years is a long time especially when the Golf was better spec'd. He was also adamant that they were not the same car despite using the MQB chassis and having identical power outputs....
Brand perception can change - look how much an Octavia vRS is now compared to older models. It's definitely been pushed up market. If VAG can do it with Skoda, surely the likes of Kia and Hyundai can too? The latter has made a good start with the i30N despite people moaning about the plastics compared to a Golf (they didn't really bother me when I looked at one).
Hasn't it just!
Gone are the old Skoda jokes. "Why does the Skoda Estelle have a rear window heater? To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it!"
Just as a reminder...
Škoda Garde, 1981. Remember when blanking caps were used on base spec models to replace nearside door mirrors? That was actually a "thing" done by many manufacturers to "save money" back in the 80s.
nickfrog said:
LuS1fer said:
However, the funniest thing is the superiority complex that some people believe such cars bestow upon you or the irrefutable belief that the car is better.
I thing what's funnier is the inferiority complex of those who find that the above is widespread.Balanced individuals don't give a s
t what people think of them through their choice of car, one way or the other. 
In all my years as a car enthusiast, having been an active member of many car clubs, reading and posting on PH (check the post count!), and chatting with friends about cars, I've only ever come across one or two people, usually wildly eccentric 70-somethings, that fit that description of traditional snobbery. This number is dwarfed by the most common type of snob: the Ford or Skoda driver who won't stop banging on about BMWs or Audis. They are the image obsessed ones - the people who refuse to buy a BMW because of the badge on the nose, or because it's "German"; we all know those people!
You find similar in the wine world (New World vs Old World), and since 2007 in the Smartphone world with Apple vs Android. To take that latter example, look through Facebook or You Tube comments on new smartphones from companies like Samsung and you won't find any comments from people saying they're s
t and that Apple phones are better. However, look through comments on an Apple post and they're full of people attacking Apple phones and owners.Psychologically these effects are interesting; it's almost as if because everyone takes traditional snobbery for granted, even though it's very rare, it gives a green light for reverse snobbery to bloom unchecked.
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 17th January 12:14
LuS1fer said:
However, the funniest thing is the superiority complex that some people believe such cars bestow upon you or the irrefutable belief that the car is better.
There is also the Inferiority complex that a lot of folk have about German cars, its like you have introduced yourself as "Hello Englander, my name is Wolfgang and I drive a Mercedes, which is far superior to your Ford peasant chariot"I have relatives that seem to view me buying a BMW as some kind of class treachery, regularly posts anything about a BMW going wrong/recall/fires on BMW and rattles on about how terrible they are and how he would never have one.
I really dont care about badges on cars, quite happy to have anything as long as I enjoy it, I find the performance figures and stuff more interesting, finding the BMW a little underwhelming to be honest so fancy a big noisy Ford.
A lot of the reticence with older folk is when they were younger, they were expensive cars to buy and maintain, and to a point its a bit pricer to get a BMW 1 series serviced than a Focus but not night and day, if you use main dealers. Its hard to break your programming sometimes, especially if you have driven a certain brand all your life.
I bought a Focus Vignale with every option apart from the panoramic roof. I'm a f*cking idiot, yes, but...
The criteria was a reasonably cheap car, which sipped petrol and was a nice, relaxing and comfy place to sit on my dreary commute.
Even taking the best of best deals into account, to have achieved a like-for-like product form the 'grand trio of sausage', would've cost me at least another £4,500 overall. This, I suppose, is because there appears to be zero demand for a tiny-engined car with a big comfort/toy spec.
The criteria was a reasonably cheap car, which sipped petrol and was a nice, relaxing and comfy place to sit on my dreary commute.
Even taking the best of best deals into account, to have achieved a like-for-like product form the 'grand trio of sausage', would've cost me at least another £4,500 overall. This, I suppose, is because there appears to be zero demand for a tiny-engined car with a big comfort/toy spec.
sasha320 said:
As a small aside, all Golf production has or is due to return to Germany as I believe the labour unions have demanded it - not sure if this impacts the points made above but it does show that the argument is multi-variate.
That could turn out to be the equivalent of just cutting all production that isn't currently in Germany altogether, bring no advantage to the German workforce but a large drop in fortunes for the company overall.In SA, Golfs, BMWs and other cars are competitively priced because they are produced locally. If the manufacturer makes enough volume or percentage of cars locally in SA, they avoid paying duty on any cars they import. For example, BMW makes enough 3 series cars in SA that it can import 5 and Seven series (and all the other ranges that have popped up in the last few years), and sell them at a price in the market that is still competitive with locally produced competition. On the other side of the coin, Jaguar has no production capacity in SA... or not enough... and so has to pay import duty on every XE it wants to sell there. XEs in SA are therefore ridiculously expensive compared to BMW 3 series and Merc C class competitors, and so nobody buys them.
Now, it could be said that nobody is buying Jaguar XEs anywhere, but the same was true with the Ford Focus Mk1 and Peugeot 306. Both were available to buy in SA - with a limited range only. I think the Focus was only available as a 2.0 Ghia, and the 306 as a 5 door XSi. Both were miles more expensive than a Golf GTI or an Opel Kadett GSi, slower, but at least well equipped. Nobody bought them.
In both cases the only example I ever saw on the road were the dealer demonstrators that my company managed to wangle test drives in.
Golfs sell well in SA because they are produced there. If they stop making VWs in SA, then VW sales in the country will dry up because the whole range will have import duty added and everyone will buy the cheaper alternatives from Opel, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, Mazda, Ford, BMW.....
That's the case I know of reasonably well, but I know Australia is similar and I'd expect other countries to have similar laws to protect local manufacturing too.
Maybe the labour unions have thought it through better than that, but on the surface it does sound to me like the idea is about as well conceived as the Brexit NHS bus, and they'd be shooting their own members in the kneecaps if they went through with such a plan.
Court_S said:
Things have definitely changed - when I was a kid, those with BMW's or Mercedes were generally pretty well off, but these days with their aggressive finance / lease deals they're the go to for most people in the UK.
VAG are the masters of the perceived quality thing - in some cases they're able to sell pretty much the same car at four different price points with the external design / plastics changing. Amazingly there are still people that buy into the Audi being the better product. For example a colleagues paid an extra £50 per month for an S Line A3 over a Golf GTD because it was deemed to be posher. £50 for four years is a long time especially when the Golf was better spec'd. He was also adamant that they were not the same car despite using the MQB chassis and having identical power outputs....
Brand perception can change - look how much an Octavia vRS is now compared to older models. It's definitely been pushed up market. If VAG can do it with Skoda, surely the likes of Kia and Hyundai can too? The latter has made a good start with the i30N despite people moaning about the plastics compared to a Golf (they didn't really bother me when I looked at one).
If you’d asked me ten years ago if I’d have taken a Kia or Hyundai over my current car at the time, a Seat Leon Cupra 1.8T 180 I’d have said no instantly. Now? I’d love a Kia Stinger and have been keeping a very close eye on the i30N used pricing. It’ll be another couple of years but as soon as they hit around £10k I’ll be checking them out.VAG are the masters of the perceived quality thing - in some cases they're able to sell pretty much the same car at four different price points with the external design / plastics changing. Amazingly there are still people that buy into the Audi being the better product. For example a colleagues paid an extra £50 per month for an S Line A3 over a Golf GTD because it was deemed to be posher. £50 for four years is a long time especially when the Golf was better spec'd. He was also adamant that they were not the same car despite using the MQB chassis and having identical power outputs....
Brand perception can change - look how much an Octavia vRS is now compared to older models. It's definitely been pushed up market. If VAG can do it with Skoda, surely the likes of Kia and Hyundai can too? The latter has made a good start with the i30N despite people moaning about the plastics compared to a Golf (they didn't really bother me when I looked at one).
av185 said:
Venturist said:
Agreed, it is quite incredible that Porsche and now Lamborghini in the news today, sell far more family cars than sports cars but are somehow perceived as a sports car company;
Porsche wouldn't have survived if they solely relied on 'sports car' manufacturing.Greg the Fish said:
i certainly wouldn't consider BMW a 'luxury' brand.Sold itself out a long time ago.
Inherent in that statement is the fact that they were at some point? I'm only 42, so can't speak for the early days of BMW, but in my lifetime at least I've never considered them 'luxury' per se, just a solidly made normal car, like VW. When I think 'luxury' I think Rolls Royce, Bentley etc.MissChief said:
If you’d asked me ten years ago if I’d have taken a Kia or Hyundai over my current car at the time, a Seat Leon Cupra 1.8T 180 I’d have said no instantly. Now? I’d love a Kia Stinger and have been keeping a very close eye on the i30N used pricing. It’ll be another couple of years but as soon as they hit around £10k I’ll be checking them out.
Much the same here if I'm honest - buying a Hyundai over a Golf? I'd have pissed myself laughing, but I genuinely wanted an i30N over a Golf GTI.The Stinger is a pretty interesting car. But there is still a snob factor for them to overcome. Another friend commented about how bad the i30N interior was despite driving a van or an old 1 series. I think it was the badge that he was more anti.
I'm certainly no snob having had a vRS for four years which although pretty dull was one of the best cars that I've ever had.
av185 said:
Venturist said:
Agreed, it is quite incredible that Porsche and now Lamborghini in the news today, sell far more family cars than sports cars but are somehow perceived as a sports car company;
Porsche wouldn't have survived if they solely relied on 'sports car' manufacturing.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff