Brexit will change the mix of cars sold in the UK.
Discussion
Olivergt said:
I would accept all his points as valid, question is, so what? Nothing to be done and hasn't for the past 4 and a half years - columns like this are just moaning and 'I told you so-ism', there is no other point to them.I voted to stay, but god almighty the grieving process is tiresome.
Olivergt said:
sasha320 said:
Debaser said:
What happens if not enough people in the UK want to buy low CO2 cars? How will they get the average down?
That’s the point of the legislation.The thing that Brexit added was:
Pre Brexit : The average CO2 was taken from the cars sold in the whole of the EU.
Post Brexit : The average is taken from the cars only sold in the UK.
The reason this is a problem is historiclly the UK bought quite a lot of high CO2 cars compared to countries like France, where a lot of low CO2 cars are purchased.
wisbech said:
Olivergt said:
sasha320 said:
Debaser said:
What happens if not enough people in the UK want to buy low CO2 cars? How will they get the average down?
That’s the point of the legislation.The thing that Brexit added was:
Pre Brexit : The average CO2 was taken from the cars sold in the whole of the EU.
Post Brexit : The average is taken from the cars only sold in the UK.
The reason this is a problem is historiclly the UK bought quite a lot of high CO2 cars compared to countries like France, where a lot of low CO2 cars are purchased.
df76 said:
wisbech said:
Olivergt said:
sasha320 said:
Debaser said:
What happens if not enough people in the UK want to buy low CO2 cars? How will they get the average down?
That’s the point of the legislation.The thing that Brexit added was:
Pre Brexit : The average CO2 was taken from the cars sold in the whole of the EU.
Post Brexit : The average is taken from the cars only sold in the UK.
The reason this is a problem is historiclly the UK bought quite a lot of high CO2 cars compared to countries like France, where a lot of low CO2 cars are purchased.
In the case of the Jimny they have jigged about with the interior so that they can fudge it into the more lax 'Commercial' segment and it is backnon sale in the UK.
But the important point is that the whole saga has nothing to do with Brexit but a manifest failure of Suzuki to build a cheap, high volume product that is sufficiently tax efficient for developed markets.
There aren't too many examples out there of global manufacturers failing to understand emission rules and taxation's of major global markets and not factoring them correctly into their product development, financial projections and general coatings etc.
Most premium vehicles emanate from Europe anyway and most can be tweaked via software. Plus, it is more likely that a manufacturer will cut products from the middle than sacrifice the halo product that helps sell millions of the base models where the big profit is.
And unlike Suzuki, most of these firms have pure EVs to sell which are the best means to drop a fleet average.
There will be a change to the balance of cars on the road but Brexit is going to have an impact on the lower, middle end of the market where the volume is and also where the incomes are that are most sensitive to economic change. The number of people able to buy a high end or halo car isn't going to change as Brexit isn't going to impact that group but it will change that much lower segment where just a small reduction in purchasing power will trigger a large movement away from the more expensive middle income brands such as BMW, Audi or Mercedes back to the cheaper ones such as Ford, Vauxhall, Renault, Nissan etc and ultimately the arrival of new sub brands as we saw with the Korean manufacturers the last time household incomes came under pressure and opened up a space.
Here in Australia it is the other way round. As Australia resolutely refuses to do anything serious about emissions (91 RON is still sold) the new generation of cleaner cars are not being sold here, as they just can’t compete with the ‘3rd world spec’ cars for Thailand/ India etc (made by Honda/ Toyota/ Kia etc).
Honda isn’t bothering with the new Jazz, and the new Yaris has caused massive sticker shock. European cars are hobbled by having to buy 95/98 RON which is 10-20% more expensive. The Japanese and Koreans, with big markets in India/ SE Asia etc are still producing engines that can run on the cheap stuff
Honda isn’t bothering with the new Jazz, and the new Yaris has caused massive sticker shock. European cars are hobbled by having to buy 95/98 RON which is 10-20% more expensive. The Japanese and Koreans, with big markets in India/ SE Asia etc are still producing engines that can run on the cheap stuff
powerstroke said:
We could elect a government more in tune
With normal people ,
That's the likely evolution to appear from Brexit but it will take a very long time. You aren't going to get an immediate change. With normal people ,
Of course, there is an argument that the government already represents normal people and that those who feel strongly that it doesn't aren't normal?
. Or that the current alternative is a party that hasn't represented the normal inhabitants of Britain for decades?Besides, there is the slight matter of the definition of normal. Is it someone who doesn't have personal responsibility and expects the Government to do and pay for everything for them or is it more normal to want to have as little as possible to do with Government which means not living a lifestyle that results in you being dependent on handouts? Ie, are the electorate likely to stop over shopping and build up capital reserves that free them from the yoke of Government or continue on the long term trend of being beholden and reliant on others as those trapped at the bottom of society are?
Let's face reality, the biggest cultural change in the West over the last 40 years has been middle income earners shopping themselves into poverty and making themselves beggars, endlessly holding out a bowl to central Go ernment desperate for scraps while blaming that very central Government for forcing them to spend all their money on living the dream.
We've had a very rapid change in social mobility that has seen huge numbers of people migrate from working class income levels to what were traditionally middle class income brackets but they have maintained their working class spending habits and so have not created long term benefits from that elevated income or frees themselves from being slaves and victims to the State.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Saturday 16th January 12:39
DonkeyApple said:
That's the likely evolution to appear from Brexit but it will take a very long time. You aren't going to get an immediate change.
Of course, there is an argument that the government already represents normal people and that those who feel strongly that it doesn't aren't normal?. Or that the current alternative is a party that hasn't represented the normal inhabitants of Britain for decades?
Besides, there is the slight matter of the definition of normal. Is it someone who doesn't have personal responsibility and expects the Government to do and pay for everything for them or is it more normal to want to have as little as possible to do with Government which means not living a lifestyle that results in you being dependent on handouts? Ie, are the electorate likely to stop over shopping and build up capital reserves that free them from the yoke of Government or continue on the long term trend of being beholden and reliant on others as those trapped at the bottom of society are?
Let's face reality, the biggest cultural change in the West over the last 40 years has been middle income earners shopping themselves into poverty and making themselves beggars, endlessly holding out a bowl to central Go ernment desperate for scraps while blaming that very central Government for forcing them to spend all their money on living the dream.
We've had a very rapid change in social mobility that has seen huge numbers of people migrate from working class income levels to what were traditionally middle class income brackets but they have maintained their working class spending habits and so have not created long term benefits from that elevated income or frees themselves from being slaves and victims to the State.
Agree But I do think people will start to realise Of course, there is an argument that the government already represents normal people and that those who feel strongly that it doesn't aren't normal?
. Or that the current alternative is a party that hasn't represented the normal inhabitants of Britain for decades?Besides, there is the slight matter of the definition of normal. Is it someone who doesn't have personal responsibility and expects the Government to do and pay for everything for them or is it more normal to want to have as little as possible to do with Government which means not living a lifestyle that results in you being dependent on handouts? Ie, are the electorate likely to stop over shopping and build up capital reserves that free them from the yoke of Government or continue on the long term trend of being beholden and reliant on others as those trapped at the bottom of society are?
Let's face reality, the biggest cultural change in the West over the last 40 years has been middle income earners shopping themselves into poverty and making themselves beggars, endlessly holding out a bowl to central Go ernment desperate for scraps while blaming that very central Government for forcing them to spend all their money on living the dream.
We've had a very rapid change in social mobility that has seen huge numbers of people migrate from working class income levels to what were traditionally middle class income brackets but they have maintained their working class spending habits and so have not created long term benefits from that elevated income or frees themselves from being slaves and victims to the State.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Saturday 16th January 12:39
What they have lost when it’s a bit late ... like as now
Government thinking gets hijacked by shouty minoritys like The green lobby ..
I hope we will end up with a proportional representation
System like most of the progressive society’s one day..
And a more measured and considered form of government as a result...
powerstroke said:
Agree But I do think people will start to realise
What they have lost when it’s a bit late ... like as now
Government thinking gets hijacked by shouty minoritys like The green lobby ..
I hope we will end up with a proportional representation
System like most of the progressive society’s one day..
And a more measured and considered form of government as a result...
Yup. Also, for 20 years the EU has been this enormous buffer that has protected the British people from the lunacy of successive Governments whose craziest desires for the manipulation of society have been blocked by the EU. What they have lost when it’s a bit late ... like as now
Government thinking gets hijacked by shouty minoritys like The green lobby ..
I hope we will end up with a proportional representation
System like most of the progressive society’s one day..
And a more measured and considered form of government as a result...
Clear examples of where a British government managed to allude tempering was the gerrymandering of key urban locations through the massive importing of people from outside the EU to restructure the very elements of society that voted then into power and of course the IGNORING of the British people and the EU to go to war in Iraq in knowingly false premises. And of course, the lunacy of the Brexit process itself.
It will though, take the British electorate years to learn to not vote for that type of politician and for the new type of politician to come through the education system and into Westminster.
But are people really about to change from simply voting for whichever party offers them more benefits or the party their dad or village elder tells them to vote for?
Personally, I don't think the electorate will change and that we have just removed the best buffer we had to protect us from the extremists of Westminster who want to create some kind of social Europe's where everyone is the same and the poor are neither seen or heard until needed to go on the rampage against those who stand up against the lunacy. In other words, more Momentum and Farridge and less civilised, respectful common sense.
For good or for bad, the effects of Brexit (beyond the immediate trauma of having to fill in forms in triplicate to take a ham sandwich over the border) will be gradual. Whilst there are obviously economic risks, it's the social ones which are making us seriously consider whether our future lies in the UK.
I think the first major shift we'll see is Scotland leaving the UK to rejoin the EU, probably followed by Northern Ireland not long afterwards. That will put increasing political power in the hands of Little Englanders, causing England (and probably Wales with it) to turn in on itself. We'll see increasingly insular governments who will impose increasing trade barriers and we'll end up like a smaller version of Russia, where we have to put up with driving whatever crap is produced locally because everything else is priced out of the market.
Realistically, that's a process which will take longer than I have left to live, though.
I think the first major shift we'll see is Scotland leaving the UK to rejoin the EU, probably followed by Northern Ireland not long afterwards. That will put increasing political power in the hands of Little Englanders, causing England (and probably Wales with it) to turn in on itself. We'll see increasingly insular governments who will impose increasing trade barriers and we'll end up like a smaller version of Russia, where we have to put up with driving whatever crap is produced locally because everything else is priced out of the market.
Realistically, that's a process which will take longer than I have left to live, though.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 16th January 14:14
kambites said:
For good or for bad, the effects of Brexit (beyond the immediate trauma of having to fill in forms in triplicate to take a ham sandwich over the border) will be gradual. Whilst there are obviously economic risks, it's the social ones which are making us seriously consider whether our future lies in the UK.
I think the first major shift we'll see is Scotland leaving the UK to rejoin the EU, probably followed by Northern Ireland not long afterwards. That will put increasing political power in the hands of Little Englanders, causing England (and probably Wales with it) to turn in on itself. We'll see increasingly insular governments who will impose increasing trade barriers and we'll end up like a smaller version of Russia, where we have to put up with driving whatever crap is produced locally because everything else is priced out of the market.
Realistically, that's a process which will take longer than I have left to live, though.
Scotland was always set to leave. It'll be their own Brexit when it happens as the Little Scotlanders steer their entire nation from being dependent on a benign England to be a third world corner of the EU empire. In some ways the sooner they leave and learn the mistake of being a subsidised non entity under the control of a Franco German regime and its currency and debt policy the better. I think the first major shift we'll see is Scotland leaving the UK to rejoin the EU, probably followed by Northern Ireland not long afterwards. That will put increasing political power in the hands of Little Englanders, causing England (and probably Wales with it) to turn in on itself. We'll see increasingly insular governments who will impose increasing trade barriers and we'll end up like a smaller version of Russia, where we have to put up with driving whatever crap is produced locally because everything else is priced out of the market.
Realistically, that's a process which will take longer than I have left to live, though.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 16th January 14:14
Little Englandsrs will probably only start to work out what they have done when they are standing in an airport queue in Spain surrounded by non whites and looking longingly at the other queue for white people where they thought they belonged and checking their online bank balances to see them in greater deficit than before. All while waiting to return to their same crappy job, home and lifestyle.
Meanwhile others will take advantage of being able to buy their way into premium processing services that will inevitably be offered by airlines as Speedy Boarding sales give way to Speedy Passport Control options.
Personally, I'm glad to longer be part of the EU as it had distorted too far away from what it was supposed to be and it's expansionist policy is a recipe for disaster as is its policy of oppression and asset stripping of the weaker members. But I don't think I was ever under any illusion as to the ramifications and cost to myself and others.
DonkeyApple said:
Personally, I'm glad to longer be part of the EU as it had distorted too far away from what it was supposed to be and it's expansionist policy is a recipe for disaster as is its policy of oppression and asset stripping of the weaker members. But I don't think I was ever under any illusion as to the ramifications and cost to myself and others.
and this is the crux of the matter (not that I make you wrong on the standard of politicians, ours or 'theirs'). Had the Common Market remained just that then the UK would not have left, sure there were people who didn't even want that (though was that because they read the small-print?) but a loose trade-affiliation would have been perfect.....irocfan said:
DonkeyApple said:
Personally, I'm glad to longer be part of the EU as it had distorted too far away from what it was supposed to be and it's expansionist policy is a recipe for disaster as is its policy of oppression and asset stripping of the weaker members. But I don't think I was ever under any illusion as to the ramifications and cost to myself and others.
and this is the crux of the matter (not that I make you wrong on the standard of politicians, ours or 'theirs'). Had the Common Market remained just that then the UK would not have left, sure there were people who didn't even want that (though was that because they read the small-print?) but a loose trade-affiliation would have been perfect.....Arguably the situation we found ourselves in was a result of 40 years of people emigrating from the regions to Westminster and choosing to neglect the people they left behind and to hang out with the rich and famous, drink free booze and embark on self enrichment.
I think it is fair to say that if the deindustrialisation of the regions had been handled properly instead of sticking the masses on benefits and giving them easy credit instead of shifting even more power and wealth to the South East then no one would have given a damn about the EU.
The referendum in hindsight was a classic, bloodless, British revolution that was handed by a fool to a public that had reached the end of its tether with a London centric economy and political gerrymandering.
But like any revolutionaries, the foot soldiers will be worse off than before and will realise that they were simply expendable pawns used by a group who themselves sought to be elevated to greater positions of power, wealth and authority.
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