Re : TVR appoints new CEO; laments factory issues
Discussion
Julian Thompson said:
I recall reading that they were fitting out the factory a while back.
Does anyone know where they are actually up to? Are we talking about an empty freezing cold warehouse with a dripping roof still? Or is it bristling with activity, fitted out with heating, power, jigs, machines and with staff arriving each day? (But they now discover the roof needs attention)
Does anyone know where they are actually up to? Are we talking about an empty freezing cold warehouse with a dripping roof still? Or is it bristling with activity, fitted out with heating, power, jigs, machines and with staff arriving each day? (But they now discover the roof needs attention)
The site at the moment is in a hell of a state, the only work that's been done is to try and secure it (which hasn't worked), it's pretty much derelict.
LucyP said:
If you don't test and develop properly, and leave it to the dealers, and customers, then you end up with TVR as it used to be.
Indeed, and times have changed.So in the past, people would put up with it "oh, it's a small manufacturer, what do you expect ? I will just have to accept it as part and parcel of owning a TVR" (or other small scale production car).
But not anymore. If things are s
te you send them back and demand your money back (with any product). People are finally coming round to not accepting crap products any more.LucyP said:
Yes it is unfeasible because the vehicle hasn't been tested or developed. The only car that they have is a prototype, built by a 3rd party. Prototypes are expensive to build and you need several, even with all the virtual testing. No manufacturer builds as few as 10 of them, let alone one, because you need to run several programs at one - hot weather, cold weather, endurance, crash, etc etc. and you have to modify each new prototype to take account of what you discover during testing, and that all takes time too.
If you don't test and develop properly, and leave it to the dealers, and customers, then you end up with TVR as it used to be. The undeveloped, badly built with rubbish components, Speed 6 engine sunk the company. The Griffith is priced like a Porsche, and it has to be built and be reliable like one. The problem is that TVR do not have the money, the facilities or the staff to do any of that, and even if they did, they would never recoup the development costs and make it a profitable venture on the projected sales at the projected price.
It's also worth noting that however developed (or not) you protoype(s) is/are, the PRODUCTION ENGINEERING to get to any kind of viable / efficient line built product is enourmous. When you build a protoype, not having say a jubille clip for a radiator hose is not a problem, you just wait whilst "dave" pops out to halfords to get one. A production line, even when building just a few cars is totally different. You need 100% of the parts for each car, and those parts need to be ordered, recieved from suppliers, booked in to stores, assigned to a car, booked out, then fitted. A modern car has tens of thousands of parts, even a simple one like a TVR. The big OEs increasingly farm out this work to the Tier1's, who supply pre-assembled "modules" for example the complete dash assembly, pre built, pre tested, supplied on custom transport stilages, with all the hardware to fit each module. TVR can't afford to do this, they will have to hand build every single last part, down to each nut and bolt, screw, washer and clip. Working out how to do that, and how to do it profitably is an enourmous undertaking, in fact, far more onerous than actually developing a prototype itself!If you don't test and develop properly, and leave it to the dealers, and customers, then you end up with TVR as it used to be. The undeveloped, badly built with rubbish components, Speed 6 engine sunk the company. The Griffith is priced like a Porsche, and it has to be built and be reliable like one. The problem is that TVR do not have the money, the facilities or the staff to do any of that, and even if they did, they would never recoup the development costs and make it a profitable venture on the projected sales at the projected price.
Max_Torque said:
It's also worth noting that however developed (or not) you protoype(s) is/are, the PRODUCTION ENGINEERING to get to any kind of viable / efficient line built product is enourmous.
Indeed. The new hybrid Transit van was developed by Prodrive. It was publicly visible (if bits under wraps) at teh PH Sunday Service a couple of years back. Prodrive were to develop and then build the first 100. the latter no mean feat. they would not have the desire or capacity to build more, but I was quite surprised they were building that many, albeit I'm not sure what the timescale was.It's a great shame TVR don't use someone like Prodrive to at least get some vehicles built and out there and thereby get some development of the production engineering.
Gandahar said:
Going to buy one then to prove us sad sacks wrong?
Form an orderly queue behind schmee.
Tim, what's happening with your order?
No am not, not in the market for a car like that. But i still wish them well, admire their ambition and transparency, sympathise with the issues they are facing....Form an orderly queue behind schmee.
Tim, what's happening with your order?
I'm 42, and wondering when I'm going to grow into this tendency to be a miserable sneering old man everytime something "new" , "different", or even "not perfect" is shared on the web. At the moment, feel no desire to live my life in such misery, but so many seem to choose that path... so surely it'll happen soon...
Not quite Max_Torque.
It's not Bristol Ave. TVR! The powertrain is being bought in from Ford via Cosworth, so that will be ready assembled. The same with the HVAC. The days of building their own engine and; fibreglass flaps etc for HVAC are over, sensibly. They surely will buy in the seats, all trimmed and ready to bolt in. And hopefully they will keep as many Mustang parts/wiring loom as they can, knowing that they all work together, and leave the Blackpool idea of a BL Mini wiper motor, Vauxhall Cavalier steering column/stalks and Ford Fiesta lights in past.
It's also not worth counting the jubilee clips for a small manufacturer. You're right in that it isn't sensible to wait for Jeff to come back with a pack from Halfords, but it isn't cost effective to book in and out every clip. I doubt that they could even afford the systems to do that. There won't be any production line as such. It will still have to be very Blackpool or Malvern (Morgan) in that respect, pushing the chassis on it's wheels down the "line", and it will have to rely on some old school methods, such as Jeff looking in the box and thinking, we're low on clips, better order some more!
It's not Bristol Ave. TVR! The powertrain is being bought in from Ford via Cosworth, so that will be ready assembled. The same with the HVAC. The days of building their own engine and; fibreglass flaps etc for HVAC are over, sensibly. They surely will buy in the seats, all trimmed and ready to bolt in. And hopefully they will keep as many Mustang parts/wiring loom as they can, knowing that they all work together, and leave the Blackpool idea of a BL Mini wiper motor, Vauxhall Cavalier steering column/stalks and Ford Fiesta lights in past.
It's also not worth counting the jubilee clips for a small manufacturer. You're right in that it isn't sensible to wait for Jeff to come back with a pack from Halfords, but it isn't cost effective to book in and out every clip. I doubt that they could even afford the systems to do that. There won't be any production line as such. It will still have to be very Blackpool or Malvern (Morgan) in that respect, pushing the chassis on it's wheels down the "line", and it will have to rely on some old school methods, such as Jeff looking in the box and thinking, we're low on clips, better order some more!
njw1 said:
Julian Thompson said:
I recall reading that they were fitting out the factory a while back.
Does anyone know where they are actually up to? Are we talking about an empty freezing cold warehouse with a dripping roof still? Or is it bristling with activity, fitted out with heating, power, jigs, machines and with staff arriving each day? (But they now discover the roof needs attention)
Does anyone know where they are actually up to? Are we talking about an empty freezing cold warehouse with a dripping roof still? Or is it bristling with activity, fitted out with heating, power, jigs, machines and with staff arriving each day? (But they now discover the roof needs attention)
The site at the moment is in a hell of a state, the only work that's been done is to try and secure it (which hasn't worked), it's pretty much derelict.
I was never overly keen on the styling to be honest, especially the interior. Nothing offensive but nothing that blew me away like a TVR always used to. I still wanted this to be a success though as a TVR I don’t personally aspire to would be better than no TVR at all. Shame it has become such a struggle.
LucyP said:
There won't be any production line as such. It will still have to be very Blackpool or Malvern (Morgan) in that respect, pushing the chassis on it's wheels down the "line"
So why are they using a new (refurbished) factory as an excuse for only producing one pre-prototype car and nothing else? What are all the engineers, designers, management etc. doing at TVR towers every day? If they don't need a huge factory yet to get crash-test cars, longevity prototypes and show motors out before commencing full production, why haven't they got those built by hand (or by 3rd party) and completed the pre-production testing and certification? When are they thinking of doing that, when 'Jones the brick' has finished?
What they seem to be saying is we can't get anywhere near start up of production because we don't have a factory. But when we have a factory we can build all the necessary pre-production stuff, get it out around the World for type approval etc and then when all that is done, we can try and make some for customers.
That sounds like years from now, not just years from 2015. They need a fully developed car, trickling out enough to get the first LE ones in the public eye (and in buyers garages) to show that they are capable of running the project. Yes, they will loose money on very single hand built one of them. But at this rate, there won't be any momentum to buy one when they finally get the factory in Wales up and running. Hand back the deposits and put the key in the door.
Most companies would be on a facelift model by now. Even the Ineos Grenadier crew have got their heads around how to make it to production - develop and build the prototypes, then use someone else's factory and staff for production!
What "engineers, desginers" Cookie1600. How many do you think they have?
They are using the "factory" excuse because it's better than saying: we haven't got any money, staff, facilities or any production ready car. Once you say that: (a) The media will report: Resurrection of TVR has failed/No car production from TVR/TVR bust and; (b) everyone from the Welsh government to other investors/lenders to the deposit payers will want their money back, and then it really will be over.
They are using the "factory" excuse because it's better than saying: we haven't got any money, staff, facilities or any production ready car. Once you say that: (a) The media will report: Resurrection of TVR has failed/No car production from TVR/TVR bust and; (b) everyone from the Welsh government to other investors/lenders to the deposit payers will want their money back, and then it really will be over.
In fact forget the factory issue for now, that's probably smoke and mirrors. TVR would do themselves a world of good if they clarified to potential customers:
How far down the line to certification and approval in the UK, EU and possibly USA are they (I presume EC SSTA and NSSTA to start with)?
How many development cars have been built and tested (crash, temp cycled, distance etc.) towards rationalising a production ready vehicle?
Have they developed partnerships with suppliers for every nut, bolt, screw and bulb. Not just engines, gearboxes, suspension, but wiring harnesses, brakes, radiators, axles steering wheels etc. etc.?
Do they now how much it will cost to make. Is that nut, bolt, screw and bulb on a spreadsheet with the potential hours to build it all and the overheads involved in the factory and equipment?
How long after the factory is refurbished and production equipment made, installed and paid-for, will they be ready to get cars to customers?
Maybe they don't have answers to some or all of the above, maybe they've let the people who put down £5k know all of that and more. It would be nice to get a deposit holders in-depth view on all this.
Come on TVR, don't let this slip and become Gilbern, Jensen, Panther or one of those other long-lost British low production greats!
How far down the line to certification and approval in the UK, EU and possibly USA are they (I presume EC SSTA and NSSTA to start with)?
How many development cars have been built and tested (crash, temp cycled, distance etc.) towards rationalising a production ready vehicle?
Have they developed partnerships with suppliers for every nut, bolt, screw and bulb. Not just engines, gearboxes, suspension, but wiring harnesses, brakes, radiators, axles steering wheels etc. etc.?
Do they now how much it will cost to make. Is that nut, bolt, screw and bulb on a spreadsheet with the potential hours to build it all and the overheads involved in the factory and equipment?
How long after the factory is refurbished and production equipment made, installed and paid-for, will they be ready to get cars to customers?
Maybe they don't have answers to some or all of the above, maybe they've let the people who put down £5k know all of that and more. It would be nice to get a deposit holders in-depth view on all this.
Come on TVR, don't let this slip and become Gilbern, Jensen, Panther or one of those other long-lost British low production greats!
LucyP said:
What "engineers, desginers" Cookie1600. How many do you think they have?
More than Dyson Automotive right now, less then Radical or Ginetta.....I think we are of exactly the same view Lucy, I'm trying to draw out of someone that knows (a potential buyer or Les himself) where they actually are, not using a derelict factory as an excuse for nothing moving forward.
Some PR could be useful to them right now to give confidence. Silence or excuses won't last for long.
I am not an engineer or a car manufacturing executive, nor do i have a massive insight into the challenges they face. However as notes by others the skills needed to build a car are almost secondary to those needed to Test, develop and ready it, build a factory, market and sell it.
Perhaps TVR should be built under licence by an already set up firm with the skills needed, then branch out when a critical mass has been reached? If Aston or Lotus or Ginetta, or the bus people in Ireland (sorry i should know their name) were able to build it, perhaps we could see this in existence quickly?
Perhaps TVR should be built under licence by an already set up firm with the skills needed, then branch out when a critical mass has been reached? If Aston or Lotus or Ginetta, or the bus people in Ireland (sorry i should know their name) were able to build it, perhaps we could see this in existence quickly?
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