RE: Honda e | Driven
Discussion
sideways man said:
Just noticed this is rear wheel drive....
With all that torque available instantly, this could be a a great way to practice oversteering
Being serious, a fun EV is what we need.
I reckon you'll find that the motor is in the boot for packaging/safety reasons and there's no chance the computer is going to let you have any fun with it.With all that torque available instantly, this could be a a great way to practice oversteering
Being serious, a fun EV is what we need.
Otispunkmeyer said:
Jonny Smith did a great review of this.
Although he didn't say it, I think there is a little insinuation there that whilst it basically "loses" to all the EV competition when you play top trumps, there is something a bit special about the car, something that makes it greater than the sum of its parts, that will have people buying it anyway.
I tend to agree. I think its a great looking car and although its a bit expensive for something that is essentially just a small city car, I think that is its only problem. The range is easily sufficient for the type of driving they've designed it for. Its not a long distance commuter, its not a road tripper, its not a bung the family in and go see granny car. It's too small for all that.
I mean it would actually work for my commute, which is fairly long compared to many, at 70 miles round trip, cross country with a mix of A and M-ways. It would work. But I've already experienced driving a small, short car over such a trip and to be honest its not that nice. Something bigger, with more mass, longer wheel base works so much better for that kind of thing.
I've found that people who are normally well into vociferous talk on smart phones and wouldn't usually be bothered about cars are, all of a sudden, all about EVs. I get it, they're essentially become wheeled smart devices. But they look at things in this totally abstract way of spec sheet vs spec sheet and that is how things are judged. No experience necessary. It all smacks of "knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing". So this little Honda E will (and is) getting roundly shouted down because it doesn't have the same range as a Tesla, or doesn't charge as fast or won't do 0-60 in 2 seconds (like that has ever been a useful metric beyond willy waving) and is a "compliance car". Shame.
Video here https://youtu.be/x6G-3_AasaoAlthough he didn't say it, I think there is a little insinuation there that whilst it basically "loses" to all the EV competition when you play top trumps, there is something a bit special about the car, something that makes it greater than the sum of its parts, that will have people buying it anyway.
I tend to agree. I think its a great looking car and although its a bit expensive for something that is essentially just a small city car, I think that is its only problem. The range is easily sufficient for the type of driving they've designed it for. Its not a long distance commuter, its not a road tripper, its not a bung the family in and go see granny car. It's too small for all that.
I mean it would actually work for my commute, which is fairly long compared to many, at 70 miles round trip, cross country with a mix of A and M-ways. It would work. But I've already experienced driving a small, short car over such a trip and to be honest its not that nice. Something bigger, with more mass, longer wheel base works so much better for that kind of thing.
I've found that people who are normally well into vociferous talk on smart phones and wouldn't usually be bothered about cars are, all of a sudden, all about EVs. I get it, they're essentially become wheeled smart devices. But they look at things in this totally abstract way of spec sheet vs spec sheet and that is how things are judged. No experience necessary. It all smacks of "knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing". So this little Honda E will (and is) getting roundly shouted down because it doesn't have the same range as a Tesla, or doesn't charge as fast or won't do 0-60 in 2 seconds (like that has ever been a useful metric beyond willy waving) and is a "compliance car". Shame.
Good review, hits on a lot of the things mentioned here in this thread.
J4CKO said:
Nobody bought a Twizy as you look a bit of a tit driving one, looks like a Jazzy mobility scooter rather than a car.
I don't think people are interested in EV's specifically, they are interested if its cheaper than their diesel to run, more reliable and doesn't cost vastly more to buy for the same size and capability. At the moment, like you say its early adopters, tech freaks, those who love the whole Tesla thing and a few of those who have done the figures, can charge it and can use one effectively.
Not every purchase is however based mainly on cost, need to see it from others perspectives, there are a lot of folk for whom money isnt such an issue, they buy what they fancy, like when you go into a shop we dont all buy food based on the most calories for the least money, or buy the strongest cheap cider for the most alcohol per pound.
The battery tech is much better than it was, but it is still an issue, as you say, when a battery with more power and greater density is developed then the ICE car will be (for most purposes) dead. Remember when we were told internet speeds were capped at 56k, a short, small, grainy video clip took minutes to arrive, pictures downloaded in bands ? Then broadband arrived, speeds rose and now that technology has enabled hi definition streamed video.
Back in 1994 when I first got internet I could see the possibilities but it seemed impossible that films and music would be delivered in real time to your computer, never mind a bloody mobile phone, which is now a hugely powerful pocket computer that happens to make phone calls.
Nobody had seriously been developing EV tech like their business depended on it, sure the odd thing appeared, then dissapeared but Tesla caught the industry on the hop by integrating existing tech into a package and flogging it, its only about 12 years since Tesla appeared, using tweaked versions of the batteries originally developed in the seventies.
Solid State battery tech is in development, cant say when it will appear, that or another development is the watershed, potentially four times the capacity for the same weight, thats when EV's get a lot more interesting for a lot more people, and when a lot of Lithium Ion based cars suddenly get cheap.
At least the Li Ion batteries are somewhat viable, weight up the old lead Acid milkfloat batteries.
I just hope I live to see it all come to fruition, preferably from behind the wheel of a Mustang GT.
Just imagine the nirvana of every utility sI don't think people are interested in EV's specifically, they are interested if its cheaper than their diesel to run, more reliable and doesn't cost vastly more to buy for the same size and capability. At the moment, like you say its early adopters, tech freaks, those who love the whole Tesla thing and a few of those who have done the figures, can charge it and can use one effectively.
Not every purchase is however based mainly on cost, need to see it from others perspectives, there are a lot of folk for whom money isnt such an issue, they buy what they fancy, like when you go into a shop we dont all buy food based on the most calories for the least money, or buy the strongest cheap cider for the most alcohol per pound.
The battery tech is much better than it was, but it is still an issue, as you say, when a battery with more power and greater density is developed then the ICE car will be (for most purposes) dead. Remember when we were told internet speeds were capped at 56k, a short, small, grainy video clip took minutes to arrive, pictures downloaded in bands ? Then broadband arrived, speeds rose and now that technology has enabled hi definition streamed video.
Back in 1994 when I first got internet I could see the possibilities but it seemed impossible that films and music would be delivered in real time to your computer, never mind a bloody mobile phone, which is now a hugely powerful pocket computer that happens to make phone calls.
Nobody had seriously been developing EV tech like their business depended on it, sure the odd thing appeared, then dissapeared but Tesla caught the industry on the hop by integrating existing tech into a package and flogging it, its only about 12 years since Tesla appeared, using tweaked versions of the batteries originally developed in the seventies.
Solid State battery tech is in development, cant say when it will appear, that or another development is the watershed, potentially four times the capacity for the same weight, thats when EV's get a lot more interesting for a lot more people, and when a lot of Lithium Ion based cars suddenly get cheap.
At least the Li Ion batteries are somewhat viable, weight up the old lead Acid milkfloat batteries.
I just hope I live to see it all come to fruition, preferably from behind the wheel of a Mustang GT.
t box being a silent EV and being able to hear the bloke in his V12 5 miles away!I remember, as a child, being able to hear the lion in Regent’s Park. No chance now with the 24/7 cacophony of the Diesel engine.
I think it’ll happen in our life times. I reckon that within a few years we will have a sizeable percentage of new cars lugging old bricks about, then we will go through a reality check of understanding that small, efficient petrol cars are the only way to infill where EVs don’t work plus the dawning of the reality of being beholden to the Chinese State and then there will be a sudden breakthrough in energy storage that will hurl us overnight from the old Victorian brick system into a completely new world.
We’ll also look back at all these screens making our cars look like the discount shelf of a TV superstore and like a man who looks back at his state of the art 80s mullet just wonder in amazement at how awful it was and how deluded we were.
‘Do you remember back at the turn of the century when we all thought a car filled full of bricks and kitted out to look like a night watchman’s desk was considered the future and how people took out massive loans to rent them?’
We’re just living through the ‘mulleted Motorola brick complete tool’ phase of EVs but the future is almost certainly bright and looking back will give many a laugh.
Butter Face said:
Looks great, but the Renault ZOE is a better buy for less money.
I'm of the same view and by coincidence guess what I placed a deposit on yesterday around the time you posted... (not so much about the green side, but having to move away from manual cars/clutches (back problem even post successful operation), increased ranges, improved interior, government grant may go, can haggle for a decent discount with Renault).Not watched the Johnny Smith review yet as I'm still at work, but did watch the What Car one yesterday, which was mixed. Seem to remember
Positives: Looks, handling, build quality, turning circle.
Dislikes: Low range, screens (slow, clunky graphics, confusing at first), practicality, seats
Also they mentioned that Honda had considered the size of journeys most people make, decided long range was not required as a result, allowing them to go for smaller batteries and thus save weight.
Not sure what this brings new to the market that the i3 did years ago.....i.e. a small premium product with 'loft type' interior that was genuinely different when launched. If you want an EV at a lower price point the revised Renault Zoe is a fine bet. Not sure where this really leaves the little Honda?
If you're going to launch an EV with a circa 90 mile range surely it needs to be stripped back to basics and affordable to the masses (a Dacia EV would do well I think)? Otherwise, give it a bigger range so it can at least justify its premium pricing.
And for those making comparisons to the iPhone don't forget when launched it was better than anything else on the market. This new Honda is not that equivalent car.
If you're going to launch an EV with a circa 90 mile range surely it needs to be stripped back to basics and affordable to the masses (a Dacia EV would do well I think)? Otherwise, give it a bigger range so it can at least justify its premium pricing.
And for those making comparisons to the iPhone don't forget when launched it was better than anything else on the market. This new Honda is not that equivalent car.
DonkeyApple said:
Just imagine the nirvana of every utility st box being a silent EV and being able to hear the bloke in his V12 5 miles away!
Nirvana indeed. And I wouldn't mind a reduction of local emissions as well. Can't really come soon enough.t box being a silent EV and being able to hear the bloke in his V12 5 miles away! DonkeyApple said:
We’ll also look back at all these screens making our cars look like the discount shelf of a TV superstore and like a man who looks back at his state of the art 80s mullet just wonder in amazement at how awful it was and how deluded we were.
‘Do you remember back at the turn of the century when we all thought a car filled full of bricks and kitted out to look like a night watchman’s desk was considered the future and how people took out massive loans to rent them?’
We’re just living through the ‘mulleted Motorola brick complete tool’ phase of EVs but the future is almost certainly bright and looking back will give many a laugh.
Bit of a stretch but made me think of this:‘Do you remember back at the turn of the century when we all thought a car filled full of bricks and kitted out to look like a night watchman’s desk was considered the future and how people took out massive loans to rent them?’
We’re just living through the ‘mulleted Motorola brick complete tool’ phase of EVs but the future is almost certainly bright and looking back will give many a laugh.
“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.”
Replace "digital watches" with favoured hyped tech of the day
.NJJ said:
Not sure what this brings new to the market that the i3 did years ago.....i.e. a small premium product with 'loft type' interior that was genuinely different when launched. If you want an EV at a lower price point the revised Renault Zoe is a fine bet. Not sure where this really leaves the little Honda?
If you're going to launch an EV with a circa 90 mile range surely it needs to be stripped back to basics and affordable to the masses (a Dacia EV would do well I think)? Otherwise, give it a bigger range so it can at least justify its premium pricing.
And for those making comparisons to the iPhone don't forget when launched it was better than anything else on the market. This new Honda is not that equivalent car.
Unfortunately, it's a bit of a fashion / status product. Bit like late stage classic / all new minis. Probably why people make the Apple connection. Honda themselves say they are still working out how many they actually need to sell (for their Co2 fleet target). Prices are likely to change over the next year(s). I would not buy one until that is becoming more clear.If you're going to launch an EV with a circa 90 mile range surely it needs to be stripped back to basics and affordable to the masses (a Dacia EV would do well I think)? Otherwise, give it a bigger range so it can at least justify its premium pricing.
And for those making comparisons to the iPhone don't forget when launched it was better than anything else on the market. This new Honda is not that equivalent car.
For those that are more rational and would like a cheap EV I think the market actually has a bit on offer by now. Used i3s start around 15k, a bit more gives you the flexibility of a Rex hybrid, first gen Zoes with battery rental really good value, rental deals on new Leafs / very soon 208e also not bad. And VW has some pretty big discounts on E-Golfs and Ups as well.
But as said umpteen times, _many_ people that currently buy the petrol equivalents can't charge the bloody EV variant.
Same for us, at around 25k I could see us replacing the better half's smart with that Honda. She really likes the design, I do to. But she doesn't want to move to the suburbs for a car (silly, right
). From our flat, no way to charge. Despite the efforts the fair city of Duesseldorf made to paint itself green, the nearest (slow) charger is 2.2km away from home. Landlords of the 2 parking spaces we rent have 0 interest to electrify. She takes public transport to work and could not charge there either. I'd need the range of a LR Tesla, the TCO of which (in Germany) isn't great.All that boring stuff just to describe why people bang in target market don't buy EVs.
If you dont have off street parking and/or home charging then large battery Evs are fine, fast charge them once a week whilst you shop for groceries etc.
Small battery EVs are more of a pain as you need to charge them every other day.
Small battery EVs are more of a pain as you need to charge them every other day.
Edited by RobDickinson on Wednesday 29th January 01:18
The reason that Honda are a bit late to the party is that their core business is the internal combustion engine (in many, many forms), not cars.
For them to have a production pure BEV for purchase is a huge shift in the company's mindset, especially following on from the Hydrogen Fuel Cell FCX Clarity "experiments" in North America
I expect it to be the first of many - especially as Honda's stated goal is to offer an all-EV lineup in Europe by 2025.
For them to have a production pure BEV for purchase is a huge shift in the company's mindset, especially following on from the Hydrogen Fuel Cell FCX Clarity "experiments" in North America
I expect it to be the first of many - especially as Honda's stated goal is to offer an all-EV lineup in Europe by 2025.
ash73 said:
Liked the concept but the production reality is a dog's breakfast.
The Sports EV concept looks great, but they'll ruin that as well.
They need to find a way to make EVs £10k cheaper, imo.
Their argument is that you will save more than £10k on fueling & maintenance, so suck it up. The Sports EV concept looks great, but they'll ruin that as well.
They need to find a way to make EVs £10k cheaper, imo.
Kolbenkopp said:
Unfortunately, it's a bit of a fashion / status product. Bit like late stage classic / all new minis. Probably why people make the Apple connection. Honda themselves say they are still working out how many they actually need to sell (for their Co2 fleet target). Prices are likely to change over the next year(s). I would not buy one until that is becoming more clear.
For those that are more rational and would like a cheap EV I think the market actually has a bit on offer by now. Used i3s start around 15k, a bit more gives you the flexibility of a Rex hybrid, first gen Zoes with battery rental really good value, rental deals on new Leafs / very soon 208e also not bad. And VW has some pretty big discounts on E-Golfs and Ups as well.
But as said umpteen times, _many_ people that currently buy the petrol equivalents can't charge the bloody EV variant.
Same for us, at around 25k I could see us replacing the better half's smart with that Honda. She really likes the design, I do to. But she doesn't want to move to the suburbs for a car (silly, right). From our flat, no way to charge. Despite the efforts the fair city of Duesseldorf made to paint itself green, the nearest (slow) charger is 2.2km away from home. Landlords of the 2 parking spaces we rent have 0 interest to electrify. She takes public transport to work and could not charge there either. I'd need the range of a LR Tesla, the TCO of which (in Germany) isn't great.
All that boring stuff just to describe why people bang in target market don't buy EVs.
Yup. The Skoda Citigo is about £17k in basic form. That’s a stomachable price and it’s lighter with better range and arguably well put together. For those that are more rational and would like a cheap EV I think the market actually has a bit on offer by now. Used i3s start around 15k, a bit more gives you the flexibility of a Rex hybrid, first gen Zoes with battery rental really good value, rental deals on new Leafs / very soon 208e also not bad. And VW has some pretty big discounts on E-Golfs and Ups as well.
But as said umpteen times, _many_ people that currently buy the petrol equivalents can't charge the bloody EV variant.
Same for us, at around 25k I could see us replacing the better half's smart with that Honda. She really likes the design, I do to. But she doesn't want to move to the suburbs for a car (silly, right
). From our flat, no way to charge. Despite the efforts the fair city of Duesseldorf made to paint itself green, the nearest (slow) charger is 2.2km away from home. Landlords of the 2 parking spaces we rent have 0 interest to electrify. She takes public transport to work and could not charge there either. I'd need the range of a LR Tesla, the TCO of which (in Germany) isn't great.All that boring stuff just to describe why people bang in target market don't buy EVs.
But if you have a driveway, multiple cars and a short commute then you’re probably not the sort of household that could emotionally cope with having something with a Skoda badge on your drive unless it belongs to a member of domestic staff.
The I3 seems to be finally finding traction in places like London among the older, more affluent residents. This Honda seems firmly focussed on that market and so does the impending Mini.
The issue is that EVs are a luxury purchase. No one actually has to buy one so while they remain more expensive and less efficient in their usability to the average consumer probably the only viable segment is the more premium side of the market.
An interesting aspect would be to see whether the much cheaper Skoda tips the sales charts for small EVs in the UK this year or whether consumers with the ability and desire to go electric will prefer to borrow an additional £10k than needed to procure brand and styling commensurate with their desired lifestyle.
My gut feeling is that the Mini might be the small car that tops the lists. I don’t know whether Honda has the brand power to sell premium? It’s not like anyone with a driveway and money to burn wants to tell anyone that they drive a Honda much more than they would a Skoda?
I think it will be the Mini that people will be renting through their company and chucking over to the wife to drive around in.
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. The Skoda Citigo is about £17k in basic form. That’s a stomachable price and it’s lighter with better range and arguably well put together.
But if you have a driveway, multiple cars and a short commute then you’re probably not the sort of household that could emotionally cope with having something with a Skoda badge on your drive unless it belongs to a member of domestic staff.
The I3 seems to be finally finding traction in places like London among the older, more affluent residents. This Honda seems firmly focussed on that market and so does the impending Mini.
The issue is that EVs are a luxury purchase. No one actually has to buy one so while they remain more expensive and less efficient in their usability to the average consumer probably the only viable segment is the more premium side of the market.
An interesting aspect would be to see whether the much cheaper Skoda tips the sales charts for small EVs in the UK this year or whether consumers with the ability and desire to go electric will prefer to borrow an additional £10k than needed to procure brand and styling commensurate with their desired lifestyle.
My gut feeling is that the Mini might be the small car that tops the lists. I don’t know whether Honda has the brand power to sell premium? It’s not like anyone with a driveway and money to burn wants to tell anyone that they drive a Honda much more than they would a Skoda?
I think it will be the Mini that people will be renting through their company and chucking over to the wife to drive around in.
Mini electric have a very competitive price starting at £26,XXX.But if you have a driveway, multiple cars and a short commute then you’re probably not the sort of household that could emotionally cope with having something with a Skoda badge on your drive unless it belongs to a member of domestic staff.
The I3 seems to be finally finding traction in places like London among the older, more affluent residents. This Honda seems firmly focussed on that market and so does the impending Mini.
The issue is that EVs are a luxury purchase. No one actually has to buy one so while they remain more expensive and less efficient in their usability to the average consumer probably the only viable segment is the more premium side of the market.
An interesting aspect would be to see whether the much cheaper Skoda tips the sales charts for small EVs in the UK this year or whether consumers with the ability and desire to go electric will prefer to borrow an additional £10k than needed to procure brand and styling commensurate with their desired lifestyle.
My gut feeling is that the Mini might be the small car that tops the lists. I don’t know whether Honda has the brand power to sell premium? It’s not like anyone with a driveway and money to burn wants to tell anyone that they drive a Honda much more than they would a Skoda?
I think it will be the Mini that people will be renting through their company and chucking over to the wife to drive around in.
It will be a very tough fight for Honda E, when Skoda offer reasonable entry EV, while Mini offer the more premium choice at same price as Honda E
kurokawa said:
Mini electric have a very competitive price starting at £26,XXX.
It will be a very tough fight for Honda E, when Skoda offer reasonable entry EV, while Mini offer the more premium choice at same price as Honda E
Yup. Zoe and others sitting in there also. Of the three, I think the Honda is better looking. But ultimately prefer the i3 as I think it’s just much more interesting, however odd it looks. It will be a very tough fight for Honda E, when Skoda offer reasonable entry EV, while Mini offer the more premium choice at same price as Honda E
Kolbenkopp said:
Bit of a stretch but made me think of this:
“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.”
Replace "digital watches" with favoured hyped tech of the day.
Mostly harmless“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.”
Replace "digital watches" with favoured hyped tech of the day
.Cardinal Hips said:
The poor paint edit actually suits the 80s vibe too.I personally like the car, I think it's great. People can live with that short range, it's forgivable because this is Honda's first attempt at an EV. The price however needs amending. It doesn't look like a £30k car.
Look forward to parking next to one with my 1983 Honda City to compare the size.
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