RE: Honda e | Driven
Discussion
RobDickinson said:
ash73 said:
They need to find a way to make EVs £10k cheaper, imo.
Problem is when your paycheck depends on ICE profits you dont want to make your EV as cheap to buy ...It'll come, but at the moment they really aren't raking it in hand over fist.
Krikkit said:
RobDickinson said:
ash73 said:
They need to find a way to make EVs £10k cheaper, imo.
Problem is when your paycheck depends on ICE profits you dont want to make your EV as cheap to buy ...It'll come, but at the moment they really aren't raking it in hand over fist.
But then your production line costs are still similar and you are then amortising your entire investment over a few thousand units rather than a few million.
It’s pretty obvious that volume is needed and that takes time. This is very early days for a compromised product that no one actually needs.
And once volumes reach a point that the investment can be amortised better there will be the additional advantage of EVs being quicker to assemble which is what will give them their true pricing advantage.
VW are hoping to be building their MEB cars 30% quicker than their ICE and that’s an absolutely enormous gain for an industry which counts profits in their smaller units based on the number of minutes they take to build.
It’s pretty obvious that volume is needed and that takes time. This is very early days for a compromised product that no one actually needs.
And once volumes reach a point that the investment can be amortised better there will be the additional advantage of EVs being quicker to assemble which is what will give them their true pricing advantage.
VW are hoping to be building their MEB cars 30% quicker than their ICE and that’s an absolutely enormous gain for an industry which counts profits in their smaller units based on the number of minutes they take to build.
I would absolutely piss myself laughing if Johnson appeared on the news tomorrow to say that environmental credentials of the policy of moving cars to electric propulsion had been comprehensively debunked by the enthusiasts of the Pistonheads forum, and that clearly the only remaining option is a complete ban on the sale of cars and £5/l on petrol.
RobDickinson said:
I'f sick and tired of this excuse, the Honda-e has a 35kwh battery,m prices for batteries are down to $120 per kwh or so, $4200 for the cells, some for the charger, motor and inverter etc , then you dont have the cost of an engine, transmission, exhaust system, fuel tank etc.
$156/kW at best actually: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/04/powering-the-...So that's about $5500 for the battery pack alone, at the absolute best-case according to various papers. Motors, inverters and the various other bits required are approx another $3000. Add in the R&D costs, low-volume production lines etc and they're really not cheap to make.
If someone could build an EV much cheaper they would - someone like PSA would smash out the e208/Corsa E sufficiently cheap that they'd sell like hotcakes.
Krikkit said:
$156/kW at best actually: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/04/powering-the-...
So that's about $5500 for the battery pack alone, at the absolute best-case according to various papers. Motors, inverters and the various other bits required are approx another $3000. Add in the R&D costs, low-volume production lines etc and they're really not cheap to make.
If someone could build an EV much cheaper they would - someone like PSA would smash out the e208/Corsa E sufficiently cheap that they'd sell like hotcakes.
Gm were paying LG $145 years ago already.So that's about $5500 for the battery pack alone, at the absolute best-case according to various papers. Motors, inverters and the various other bits required are approx another $3000. Add in the R&D costs, low-volume production lines etc and they're really not cheap to make.
If someone could build an EV much cheaper they would - someone like PSA would smash out the e208/Corsa E sufficiently cheap that they'd sell like hotcakes.
https://pushevs.com/2015/10/02/lg-chem-and-gm-145k...
RobDickinson said:
Krikkit said:
$156/kW at best actually: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/04/powering-the-...
So that's about $5500 for the battery pack alone, at the absolute best-case according to various papers. Motors, inverters and the various other bits required are approx another $3000. Add in the R&D costs, low-volume production lines etc and they're really not cheap to make.
If someone could build an EV much cheaper they would - someone like PSA would smash out the e208/Corsa E sufficiently cheap that they'd sell like hotcakes.
Gm were paying LG $145 years ago already.So that's about $5500 for the battery pack alone, at the absolute best-case according to various papers. Motors, inverters and the various other bits required are approx another $3000. Add in the R&D costs, low-volume production lines etc and they're really not cheap to make.
If someone could build an EV much cheaper they would - someone like PSA would smash out the e208/Corsa E sufficiently cheap that they'd sell like hotcakes.
https://pushevs.com/2015/10/02/lg-chem-and-gm-145k...
otolith said:
I would absolutely piss myself laughing if Johnson appeared on the news tomorrow to say that environmental credentials of the policy of moving cars to electric propulsion had been comprehensively debunked by the enthusiasts of the Pistonheads forum, and that clearly the only remaining option is a complete ban on the sale of cars and £5/l on petrol.
Do you believe that the core solution to air pollution lies with EVs? Because it doesn’t. And it’s actually remarkable illogical if you step away from the fanatical aspects and apply some logic. They are currently toys for the affluent and while that is changing how many years will it be before 50% of new sales are pure EV? 5, 10, 15? Even at that point, with 1.5m new EVs a year how many years will it take to replace the 30m cars? Decades?
So while we wait for EVs to become cheaper and more popular why would you ridicule the argument of tackling the amount of petrol being burnt more directly?
If we have a problem then where is the logic in steadfastly sticking to a single, slow and flawed solution that is going to take decades? Why would you not consider other ideas that would yield much quicker results?
We can already buy an endless supply of smaller, frugal transport boxes so using taxation to steer those who favour not using them is a very sound concept.
Why would someone favour the adoption of EVs and yet not favour other, more efficient means to reduce petrol consumption without restricting mobility in any way?
Why wouldn’t you levy additional taxes on excess consumption? Or on any engines above 1L etc? Or restrict credit to no greater than that required by someone on minimum wage to be efficiently mobile?
What a horrid dash. Does it really need all the screens and features? I would have thought that as a city car, mostly used for commuting, school runs, and trips to the shops, that no 'connectivity' would be needed. Not even sat nav. Surely a simple display of dials which use no power, wipe clean seats, and a bench seat with a flat floor making it easy to clean out would have been better. This just seems to be pointless gadgets for the sake of it.
otolith said:
I believe that our choice is between electric cars and public transport. If it’s not EVs, it’s the loser-cruiser all round.
But you appreciate that this will take decades to achieve right? In the meantime do you then disagree that more should be done to reduce the biting of fossil fuels as best possible or disagree that any action taken to limit the use of fossil fuels will drive forward the rate of EV adoption?Your view seems not only a little extremist but tremendously flawed and yet you make posts attempting to mock discussions which actually support your own personal desires.
R400TVR said:
What a horrid dash. Does it really need all the screens and features? I would have thought that as a city car, mostly used for commuting, school runs, and trips to the shops, that no 'connectivity' would be needed. Not even sat nav. Surely a simple display of dials which use no power, wipe clean seats, and a bench seat with a flat floor making it easy to clean out would have been better. This just seems to be pointless gadgets for the sake of it.
Rob was explaining that it’s meant for kids who have blown their house deposit on iPhones, subscriptions and three time filtered, organic Peruvian lama p1ss so it’s kitted out like a little living room so they can park up for the evening on an industrial estate with some mates and watch Cbeebees while using social media to complain how the planet has been destroyed by feckless idiots who keep buying pointless tat they don’t need with money they don’t have. It’s provably also useful for cool dad’s desperately trying to get down with the kids or just trying to piss the wife off who wanted a Mini or ideally an absolutely massive Tesla, the one with the pedo doors so that all the other mothers understood that her husband was richer than theirs.
We arent perhaps the target market for this particular model.
Despite all being PBCD's and everything, other folk do have money and wildly different needs and aspirations.
I will spend 30 ish on my next car, M4 or Mustang, fairly sure it wont be a small, expensive EV but I cant imagine those wanting one of these fancy the Urban Drug dealer staff car or a Billy Jo Jim Bob Yee har Chestwig chariot either.
If I were looking at motoring purely from a cost/utility angle, I wouldn't be considering either of the above, high VED, crap economy, expensive to keep going, depreciation etc.
I could buy a ten year old diesel Octavia for a couple of grand, and maybe if I had to, I would, but I dont and you are a long time dead so ridiculous Coupe it is, same goes for someone who wants a cute little Honda EV.
Despite all being PBCD's and everything, other folk do have money and wildly different needs and aspirations.
I will spend 30 ish on my next car, M4 or Mustang, fairly sure it wont be a small, expensive EV but I cant imagine those wanting one of these fancy the Urban Drug dealer staff car or a Billy Jo Jim Bob Yee har Chestwig chariot either.
If I were looking at motoring purely from a cost/utility angle, I wouldn't be considering either of the above, high VED, crap economy, expensive to keep going, depreciation etc.
I could buy a ten year old diesel Octavia for a couple of grand, and maybe if I had to, I would, but I dont and you are a long time dead so ridiculous Coupe it is, same goes for someone who wants a cute little Honda EV.
Edited by J4CKO on Thursday 30th January 09:09
Dave Hedgehog said:
RobDickinson said:
Krikkit said:
$156/kW at best actually: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/04/powering-the-...
So that's about $5500 for the battery pack alone, at the absolute best-case according to various papers. Motors, inverters and the various other bits required are approx another $3000. Add in the R&D costs, low-volume production lines etc and they're really not cheap to make.
If someone could build an EV much cheaper they would - someone like PSA would smash out the e208/Corsa E sufficiently cheap that they'd sell like hotcakes.
Gm were paying LG $145 years ago already.So that's about $5500 for the battery pack alone, at the absolute best-case according to various papers. Motors, inverters and the various other bits required are approx another $3000. Add in the R&D costs, low-volume production lines etc and they're really not cheap to make.
If someone could build an EV much cheaper they would - someone like PSA would smash out the e208/Corsa E sufficiently cheap that they'd sell like hotcakes.
https://pushevs.com/2015/10/02/lg-chem-and-gm-145k...
We're still ignoring the fact that just about everyone is producing an EV of some kind now, and either everyone is price-fixing, or they cost more to produce...
Krikkit said:
Honda probably won't get the same rates as GM or Tesla yet as they're only taking low volumes for now... Even assuming they do get $120 it still doesn't change the fact that the drivetrain is hugely more expensive than an ICE that's produced for group-wide use.
We're still ignoring the fact that just about everyone is producing an EV of some kind now, and either everyone is price-fixing, or they cost more to produce...
How many countries can you sell EVs in? It’s only the small number who have tax incentive programs. And then how many of those countries can those tax incentives be obtained only via a pure EV?We're still ignoring the fact that just about everyone is producing an EV of some kind now, and either everyone is price-fixing, or they cost more to produce...
Lots of EV fans don’t recognise the real world but demand to live in a fabricated utopia that fits their needs. Other EV fans are more pragmatic and appreciate that this is an evolution of the motor vehicle not the apocalypse of the ICE.
The higher prices of EVs isn’t really due to their batteries alone. People make the mistake of trying to compare the cost of the battery pack to cost of the engine and drivetrain. The battery pack is just the petrol tank. It’s the electric motor that is replacing the engine, gearbox et al. How expensive are these electric motors and how many are being fitted to some cars? Gearboxes and engines are actually really very cheap and there’s only one of each in a car. Electric motors are still very expensive and often there is more than one being installed.
So you have a more expensive drivetrain at factory level costs, a much more expensive fuel tank in terms of initial purchase and you have very low volumes but your product development costs haven’t changed much and the maintaining of completely new and untested supply lines adds an additional cost.
For the last ten years the biggest EV manufacturer outside of China has been selling every single car for a sizeable loss. Even in China where consumers are forced to buy EVs and the EV manufacturers have been completely bankrolled by State funds these businesses are still losing money and living off benefits.
It’s going to take time for the cost advanatages that EVs habe on paper over ICE to be able to be brought to bear and demanding that products are just sold at a loss so a few people can get their hands on the latest toys is just a window into the crippling greed and dimwitted avarice of the modern Western consumer and their selfish mindsets.
Irrotational said:
I'm tempted to get one, I really like it...might sell my Caterham to fund it...
Does anyone know what the wait times are like? Has anyone reserved one?
It should be a good idea to get in if you like it, regardless of waiting time as it is a fresh car from Honda and if you look at the current models they are very JVC in terms of styling. Does anyone know what the wait times are like? Has anyone reserved one?
The problem with EV and anti-diesel arguments is that they a metro-centric. They want to get pollution out of the cities and in cities short journeys are common. If you don't live in the city, the range of EVs can be a problem and the generally better fuel consumption of diesels is an advantage.
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