Reasons why you don’t go to a main dealer for a service
Discussion
Read nearly all 14pages of this, just like to clear a few things up as a dealer employee for many years.
1) price of oil, just cos you can get it from euro car parts that meets the manufacturer spec cheaper doesn't mean the dealer is ripping you off. The manufacturer will specifically instruct what oil the dealer must use. And I dont mean it must be 5/30. It must be 5/30 castrol magnetec specifically for ford engines. Sometimes a barrel of engine oil can cost over a grand.
2) I know they never even replaced my oil filter.... yeah, well, some manufacturer scheduled servicing doesn't include an oil filter change, the official line is "engineering processes have proven the filter is just as good after 20k miles therefore isn't required at first 10k service to be replaced this reducing cost for the customer" so dont be alarmed if the filter appears untouched. There is even annual services with some manufacturers that dont include the oil to be changed.
And as for the whole oil being sucked out they cant even be bothered to drain it, well, again manufacturer will specify that's how to do it. You want the factory trained tech but dont want it done how the factory advises?
3) the oil is black so not been changed, I have personally changed oil and its black by the time it's got to the sump.
4) the pollen filter wasnt even changed cos I can tell the trim hasnt been removed.... well that's because the guy who does it does ten a day. Every day. For the last 15 years. He knows exactly how to remove that trim without leaving a mark. It's called experience.
5) parts are expensive. Manufacturer says that door handle is 90£ that's it, the dealer adds a small percentage plus vat that door handle is now £120. Sadly the parts department aim to make £10 on this door handle sale. That's ten whole pounds. But you'll be down the pub later saying what a rip off that main dealer is down the road are for charging £120 for a door handle. If we made it ourselves out the back for 50p I would agree with you, but we dont.
6) work charged and not done, honestly I have never come across this. Manufacturer mystery shops, Vosa mystery shops, trading standards mystery shops, internal mystery shops, outside agencies doing spot check quality checks. Work charged for IS carried out in my experience.
7) warranty work, nightmare in most cases. Manufacturer will tell the dealer what the labour rate will be this year, typically 50% of retail rate. Oh and they wont pay retail prices on parts either so we won't make any money out of that. And then will only pay what they say the time of the job should take. So that engine job they might only pay 6 hours for, when really a tech might have spent 12 hours on it. So say retail price is 100£ and hour. Manufacturer will pay £50. So essentially £25 an hour. And not made any money on parts. Take out techs wages, insurance, pension and all other overheads we will literally be lucky to make £20 profit on a big warranty job. And the comes the warranty audit. You missed off those bell housing bolts that you should of replaced on that engine job, rejected we're not paying.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
9) theres good and bad in all trades. I know customers that go back to the dealer for everything simply because they trust them. Tyres, key batteries,everything. These people aren't stupid. They just use a service provided by someone they trust.
One very final note to remember, once the manufacturer has sold the car their only source of revenue is from selling parts and from the dealer such as training courses, warranty charge backs, non compliance fines etc. I.e. you have the wrong shade of grey on those floor tiles, ten grand fine coming your way by the end of the month unless its retiled with the correct tiles. Oh by the way there is only one supplier in Europe of the correct tiles, and guess who the major shareholder is..... and guess what, they are four times the cost of anyone else.
1) price of oil, just cos you can get it from euro car parts that meets the manufacturer spec cheaper doesn't mean the dealer is ripping you off. The manufacturer will specifically instruct what oil the dealer must use. And I dont mean it must be 5/30. It must be 5/30 castrol magnetec specifically for ford engines. Sometimes a barrel of engine oil can cost over a grand.
2) I know they never even replaced my oil filter.... yeah, well, some manufacturer scheduled servicing doesn't include an oil filter change, the official line is "engineering processes have proven the filter is just as good after 20k miles therefore isn't required at first 10k service to be replaced this reducing cost for the customer" so dont be alarmed if the filter appears untouched. There is even annual services with some manufacturers that dont include the oil to be changed.
And as for the whole oil being sucked out they cant even be bothered to drain it, well, again manufacturer will specify that's how to do it. You want the factory trained tech but dont want it done how the factory advises?
3) the oil is black so not been changed, I have personally changed oil and its black by the time it's got to the sump.
4) the pollen filter wasnt even changed cos I can tell the trim hasnt been removed.... well that's because the guy who does it does ten a day. Every day. For the last 15 years. He knows exactly how to remove that trim without leaving a mark. It's called experience.
5) parts are expensive. Manufacturer says that door handle is 90£ that's it, the dealer adds a small percentage plus vat that door handle is now £120. Sadly the parts department aim to make £10 on this door handle sale. That's ten whole pounds. But you'll be down the pub later saying what a rip off that main dealer is down the road are for charging £120 for a door handle. If we made it ourselves out the back for 50p I would agree with you, but we dont.
6) work charged and not done, honestly I have never come across this. Manufacturer mystery shops, Vosa mystery shops, trading standards mystery shops, internal mystery shops, outside agencies doing spot check quality checks. Work charged for IS carried out in my experience.
7) warranty work, nightmare in most cases. Manufacturer will tell the dealer what the labour rate will be this year, typically 50% of retail rate. Oh and they wont pay retail prices on parts either so we won't make any money out of that. And then will only pay what they say the time of the job should take. So that engine job they might only pay 6 hours for, when really a tech might have spent 12 hours on it. So say retail price is 100£ and hour. Manufacturer will pay £50. So essentially £25 an hour. And not made any money on parts. Take out techs wages, insurance, pension and all other overheads we will literally be lucky to make £20 profit on a big warranty job. And the comes the warranty audit. You missed off those bell housing bolts that you should of replaced on that engine job, rejected we're not paying.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
9) theres good and bad in all trades. I know customers that go back to the dealer for everything simply because they trust them. Tyres, key batteries,everything. These people aren't stupid. They just use a service provided by someone they trust.
One very final note to remember, once the manufacturer has sold the car their only source of revenue is from selling parts and from the dealer such as training courses, warranty charge backs, non compliance fines etc. I.e. you have the wrong shade of grey on those floor tiles, ten grand fine coming your way by the end of the month unless its retiled with the correct tiles. Oh by the way there is only one supplier in Europe of the correct tiles, and guess who the major shareholder is..... and guess what, they are four times the cost of anyone else.
Edited by hi court on Monday 24th February 23:38
hi court said:
Read nearly all 14pages of this, just like to clear a few things up as a dealer employee for many years.
1) price of oil, just cos you can get it from euro car parts that meets the manufacturer spec cheaper doesn't mean the dealer is ripping you off. The manufacturer will specifically instruct what oil the dealer must use. And I dont mean it must be 5/30. It must be 5/30 castrol magnetec specifically for ford engines. Sometimes a barrel of engine oil can cost over a grand.
2) I know the never even replaced my oil filter.... yeah, well, some manufacturer scheduled servicing doesn't include an oil filter change, the official line is "engineering processes have proven the filter is just as good after 20k miles therefore isn't required at first 10k service to be replaced this reducing cost for the customer" so dont be alarmed if the filter appears untouched.
3) the oil is black so not been changed, I have personally changed oil and its black by the time it's got to the sump.
4) the pollen filter wasnt even changed cos I can tell the trim hasnt been removed.... well that's because the guy who does it does ten a day. Every day. For the last 15 years. He knows exactly how to remove that trim without leaving a mark. It's called experience.
5) parts are expensive. Manufacturer says that door handle is 90£ that's it, the dealer adds a small percentage plus vat that door handle is now £120. Sadly the parts department aim to make £10 on this door handle sale. That's ten whole pounds. But you'll be down the pub later saying what a rip off that main dealer is down the road are for charging £120 for a door handle. If we made it ourselves out the back for 50p I would agree with you, but we dont.
6) work charged and not done, honestly I have never come across this. Manufacturer mystery shops, Vosa mystery shops, trading standards mystery shops, internal mystery shops, outside agencies doing spot check quality checks. Work charged for IS carried out in my experience.
7) warranty work, nightmare in most cases. Manufacturer will tell the dealer what the labour rate will be this year, typically 50% of retail rate. Oh and they wont pay retail prices on parts either so we won't make any money out of that. And then will only pay what they say the time of the job should take. So that engine job they might only pay 6 hours for, when really a tech might have spent 12 hours on it. So say retail price is 100£ and hour. Manufacturer will pay £50. So essentially £25 an hour. And not made any money on parts. Take out techs wages, insurance, pension and all other overheads we will literally be lucky to make £20 profit on a big warranty job. And the comes the warranty audit. You missed off those bell housing bolts that you should of replaced on that engine job, rejected we're not paying.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
9) theres good and bad in all trades. I know customers that go back to the dealer for everything simply because they trust them. Tyres, key batteries,everything. These people aren't stupid. They just use a service provided by someone they trust.
I agree with all of this. We get an unnecessarily bad rep. The making stuff up and charging for work not done is not accurate of my experience.1) price of oil, just cos you can get it from euro car parts that meets the manufacturer spec cheaper doesn't mean the dealer is ripping you off. The manufacturer will specifically instruct what oil the dealer must use. And I dont mean it must be 5/30. It must be 5/30 castrol magnetec specifically for ford engines. Sometimes a barrel of engine oil can cost over a grand.
2) I know the never even replaced my oil filter.... yeah, well, some manufacturer scheduled servicing doesn't include an oil filter change, the official line is "engineering processes have proven the filter is just as good after 20k miles therefore isn't required at first 10k service to be replaced this reducing cost for the customer" so dont be alarmed if the filter appears untouched.
3) the oil is black so not been changed, I have personally changed oil and its black by the time it's got to the sump.
4) the pollen filter wasnt even changed cos I can tell the trim hasnt been removed.... well that's because the guy who does it does ten a day. Every day. For the last 15 years. He knows exactly how to remove that trim without leaving a mark. It's called experience.
5) parts are expensive. Manufacturer says that door handle is 90£ that's it, the dealer adds a small percentage plus vat that door handle is now £120. Sadly the parts department aim to make £10 on this door handle sale. That's ten whole pounds. But you'll be down the pub later saying what a rip off that main dealer is down the road are for charging £120 for a door handle. If we made it ourselves out the back for 50p I would agree with you, but we dont.
6) work charged and not done, honestly I have never come across this. Manufacturer mystery shops, Vosa mystery shops, trading standards mystery shops, internal mystery shops, outside agencies doing spot check quality checks. Work charged for IS carried out in my experience.
7) warranty work, nightmare in most cases. Manufacturer will tell the dealer what the labour rate will be this year, typically 50% of retail rate. Oh and they wont pay retail prices on parts either so we won't make any money out of that. And then will only pay what they say the time of the job should take. So that engine job they might only pay 6 hours for, when really a tech might have spent 12 hours on it. So say retail price is 100£ and hour. Manufacturer will pay £50. So essentially £25 an hour. And not made any money on parts. Take out techs wages, insurance, pension and all other overheads we will literally be lucky to make £20 profit on a big warranty job. And the comes the warranty audit. You missed off those bell housing bolts that you should of replaced on that engine job, rejected we're not paying.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
9) theres good and bad in all trades. I know customers that go back to the dealer for everything simply because they trust them. Tyres, key batteries,everything. These people aren't stupid. They just use a service provided by someone they trust.
If your brakes are 70% worn, I'm not going to tell you you'll crash and burn as soon as you leave the dealership. I'll advise you they might not get to the next service as you are doing 1500 miles a month. I'll offer to have them done now more for your convenience. I'll say it may be possible to save the discs at this point. I'll give you a price with the discs and without (if they are ok). Then you say yes or no.
You may ignore the advice, and turn up out of the blue in a couple of months with a brake warning light on and grinding, ruined discs, demanding a courtesy car that's been booked for someone else weeks in advance, that you think it's outrageous you might have to refuel it or even pay a few pennies for a reduced insurance excess! We don't have a courtesy vehicle but we can do the work, if you wait, within 90 minutes, which you agree to. You get your free coffee, wifi newspapers and TV and food whilst you wait in a warm showroom whilst your car is fixed, and maybe washed. Then you go and give us a bad review online "too expensive and took too long, told me I had thousands of miles left at the last service"
The above isn't based on any particular experience, but is typical of what happens frequently.
p4cks said:
Why don’t you visit your main dealer for servicing or repairs?
Last time I did was 1991 - the result was 3 weeks without my car and a succession of really crappy loan cars - it's a long story and the garage is no longer trading - every time I picked the car up something else was broken - all I asked for was a major service and by the time they'd finished it had a brand new cyl head all new valves and a new clutch (the clutch I paid 50% of the cost)p4cks said:
How does it make you feel when you HAVE to go to the main dealer for something?
I have no problems with going to buy parts both BMW and Mercedes dealers I have used recently give reasonable discount on partsp4cks said:
What do they do that you DON’T like?
Actually no idea these days but since 1991 I figured if I wanted it done right I'd better do it myself and I'd rather spend the labour cost on tools 
p4cks said:
What do they do that you DO like?
If they don't have the part I need in stock they normally get it quite quickly and ring me to say it's inIn fact the parts guys are always great and are often amazed initially I've come to get parts from a main dealer but a conversation about cheap Chinese crap in the aftermarket sources normally gets agreement and then often they discount the parts
Currently the daily is a 2013 125i with FBMWSH - I'm unlikely to change it for a while - already done gearbox and diff oil as well as pollen filter and air filter - neither of the filters looked like they had been changed recently so I'll probably going to service it myself and just keep all the receipts for parts
jamoor said:
But it is expensive!
Paying someone £150 an hour when the average wage is maybe £15-20 is by definition expensive!
It's those pesky floor tiles, grrrr!Paying someone £150 an hour when the average wage is maybe £15-20 is by definition expensive!
And I'm not buying the last couple of defensive statements either.
I say this not through heresy but personal experience.
A salesman friend at my local VW dealership told me that the 'best' techs charged out 16 hours work in an 8 hour day and that anyone 'only' charging out 8 hours of work per day were considered financially inefficient.
My local indie doesn't have a floor tiled by Gucci, it's concrete and decorated with oil paintings by just about every vehicle manufacturer.
I stand by my original post that - in my experience - the majority of main dealer servicing is carried out beyond the facade of fancy tiles, coffee machines and well suited advisors, by the poor bods tasked to knock out a £400 oil change in twenty minutes and and tick off the 300 point check in another 5 minutes.
As for 'sucking' out the engine oil because that's what the manufacturer states as correct policy, don't even get me started.
I thought that I would show you a picture of a garage specialising in classic Jaguars and specifically preparing them for racing and repairing them when bent. The place is climate controlled, always spotless, tea or coffee is often made for me by the MD, they have six lifts, lots of qualified staff, a body shop, a paint shop, an extremely well built dyno room in case the engine gives way on testing, and upstairs a number of the usual servicing parts such as oil, brake pads etc. Tyres and balancing are dealt with across the yard. A pretty impressive set-up all in all. Their labour rate is about one third of a main dealer's rate, yet they must have roughly the same overheads.
cheddar said:
jamoor said:
But it is expensive!
Paying someone £150 an hour when the average wage is maybe £15-20 is by definition expensive!
A salesman friend at my local VW dealership told me that the 'best' techs charged out 16 hours work in an 8 hour day and that anyone 'only' charging out 8 hours of work per day were considered financially inefficient.Paying someone £150 an hour when the average wage is maybe £15-20 is by definition expensive!
Different types of technician will display different overall efficiency across the month-typically you’d look for a service technician (so the guy doing service work, brake replacement, tyres-maintenance stuff, basically) to be approximately 110-115% efficient. He’d probably be paid top level bonus on 110%, maybe.
Anything more than that, I would be asking questions over whether he was doing the job properly.
A diagnostic or master tech-typically they’d only be 60-75% efficient. On paper, this makes them look not so great. However, given the nature of the work they do (and a fair proportion of this would be warranty, which pays the bare minimum time and usually nowhere near the time it takes to actually diagnose the fault), this really isn’t a bad shout.
For example, Fred spends an hour and a half diagnosing a job with an engine management light on, which turns out to be a fuel injector issue, one of which requires replacing. Unfortunately the injector is seized in the cylinder head, necessitating extra time to free it off.
Warranty will probably pay the following;
Global ECU scan 0.3 hours
Extended diagnosis and wiring checks 0.5
Replace injector 0.6
This doesn’t take into account the 0.8 hours additional diag time the tech spend to ensure the fault was actually where he was looking, plus the hour to free off the injector.
Hence the tech looks inefficient, but he’s actually done the job properly.
Of course, upper management will only look at the numbers on paper...
lowdrag said:
I thought that I would show you a picture of a garage specialising in classic Jaguars and specifically preparing them for racing and repairing them when bent. The place is climate controlled, always spotless, tea or coffee is often made for me by the MD, they have six lifts, lots of qualified staff, a body shop, a paint shop, an extremely well built dyno room in case the engine gives way on testing, and upstairs a number of the usual servicing parts such as oil, brake pads etc. Tyres and balancing are dealt with across the yard. A pretty impressive set-up all in all. Their labour rate is about one third of a main dealer's rate, yet they must have roughly the same overheads.
Where’s that? I’ve got a Series 1 E that will need the occasional fettle.
In the south at Battle. But for regular servicing and attention I would very strongly recommend Just Historics at St Leonards on Seas. All are Jaguar specialists. They do regular servicing and all mechanical woes. I've known them for 20 years. Speak to David or Melvin and say Tony from le Mans recommended you. No involvement on my part of course, just have known them for years. Melvin built my race/rally engine in 2004 and it is a peach.
http://www.justhistoriccars.co.uk/
http://www.justhistoriccars.co.uk/
Just watched a driver for a main Audi dealer in London put in his best Lewis Hamliton performance in a new still plastic wrapped car I guess he was late getting back to the dealership in.
No plates on the car yet, trade plates obscured by heavy tint on rear and was sat flat down on the front dash, roads were wet and greasy and he was flying at high speed in and out of every gap he could, tailgating everyone in his way.
Not a reason not to go to a main dealer. But I was impressed by the sheer stupidity of his driving and the arrogance of treating a someone else’s car like that. Thought I’d share!
No plates on the car yet, trade plates obscured by heavy tint on rear and was sat flat down on the front dash, roads were wet and greasy and he was flying at high speed in and out of every gap he could, tailgating everyone in his way.
Not a reason not to go to a main dealer. But I was impressed by the sheer stupidity of his driving and the arrogance of treating a someone else’s car like that. Thought I’d share!
lowdrag said:
In the south at Battle. But for regular servicing and attention I would very strongly recommend Just Historics at St Leonards on Seas. All are Jaguar specialists. They do regular servicing and all mechanical woes. I've known them for 20 years. Speak to David or Melvin and say Tony from le Mans recommended you. No involvement on my part of course, just have known them for years. Melvin built my race/rally engine in 2004 and it is a peach.
http://www.justhistoriccars.co.uk/
Thanks very much for the info.http://www.justhistoriccars.co.uk/
lowdrag said:
I thought that I would show you a picture of a garage specialising in classic Jaguars and specifically preparing them for racing and repairing them when bent. The place is climate controlled, always spotless, tea or coffee is often made for me by the MD, they have six lifts, lots of qualified staff, a body shop, a paint shop, an extremely well built dyno room in case the engine gives way on testing, and upstairs a number of the usual servicing parts such as oil, brake pads etc. Tyres and balancing are dealt with across the yard. A pretty impressive set-up all in all. Their labour rate is about one third of a main dealer's rate, yet they must have roughly the same overheads.
Main dealer overheads are greater by order of magnitude, BS costs money, and it also costs a lot of money to have pretty young women wandering about doing next to f**k all. Then there are targets, and sales types love their targets, the more profit they can squeeze the better, whereas the place you describe will mostly be doing it for the love of doing it, that is until the owner retires and it gets bought out.lyonspride said:
Main dealer overheads are greater by order of magnitude, BS costs money, and it also costs a lot of money to have pretty young women wandering about doing next to f**k all. Then there are targets, and sales types love their targets, the more profit they can squeeze the better, whereas the place you describe will mostly be doing it for the love of doing it, that is until the owner retires and it gets bought out.
Exactly, lots of business seem to have done away with huge overheads to increase value to the consumer, think dollar shave club, Ryanair, Large Supermarkets (they cut out wholesalers and went directly from manufacturer to retailer) and I'm sure there are more.The motor industry refuses to move forward with the times.
itcaptainslow said:
Your friend is a salesman, with due respect. Not a service manager. Most of the sales personnel I’ve come across have very little idea how a service department operates, nor how efficiencies are calculated.
Different types of technician will display different overall efficiency across the month-typically you’d look for a service technician (so the guy doing service work, brake replacement, tyres-maintenance stuff, basically) to be approximately 110-115% efficient. He’d probably be paid top level bonus on 110%, maybe.
Anything more than that, I would be asking questions over whether he was doing the job properly.
A diagnostic or master tech-typically they’d only be 60-75% efficient. On paper, this makes them look not so great. However, given the nature of the work they do (and a fair proportion of this would be warranty, which pays the bare minimum time and usually nowhere near the time it takes to actually diagnose the fault), this really isn’t a bad shout.
For example, Fred spends an hour and a half diagnosing a job with an engine management light on, which turns out to be a fuel injector issue, one of which requires replacing. Unfortunately the injector is seized in the cylinder head, necessitating extra time to free it off.
Warranty will probably pay the following;
Global ECU scan 0.3 hours
Extended diagnosis and wiring checks 0.5
Replace injector 0.6
This doesn’t take into account the 0.8 hours additional diag time the tech spend to ensure the fault was actually where he was looking, plus the hour to free off the injector.
Hence the tech looks inefficient, but he’s actually done the job properly.
Of course, upper management will only look at the numbers on paper...
You talk a lot about warranty work (which does sound poorly paid) but nothing about the £300/£400/£500 glorified oil changes or the seemingly constant cock ups made by MD service techs.Different types of technician will display different overall efficiency across the month-typically you’d look for a service technician (so the guy doing service work, brake replacement, tyres-maintenance stuff, basically) to be approximately 110-115% efficient. He’d probably be paid top level bonus on 110%, maybe.
Anything more than that, I would be asking questions over whether he was doing the job properly.
A diagnostic or master tech-typically they’d only be 60-75% efficient. On paper, this makes them look not so great. However, given the nature of the work they do (and a fair proportion of this would be warranty, which pays the bare minimum time and usually nowhere near the time it takes to actually diagnose the fault), this really isn’t a bad shout.
For example, Fred spends an hour and a half diagnosing a job with an engine management light on, which turns out to be a fuel injector issue, one of which requires replacing. Unfortunately the injector is seized in the cylinder head, necessitating extra time to free it off.
Warranty will probably pay the following;
Global ECU scan 0.3 hours
Extended diagnosis and wiring checks 0.5
Replace injector 0.6
This doesn’t take into account the 0.8 hours additional diag time the tech spend to ensure the fault was actually where he was looking, plus the hour to free off the injector.
Hence the tech looks inefficient, but he’s actually done the job properly.
Of course, upper management will only look at the numbers on paper...
I could honestly write pages about my poor experiences.
And, when I drove an Amarok I asked for periodic servicing as I only drove 4000 miles annually, I was declined despite the handbook quoting 'Every 15000 miles or every 2nd year, whichever comes first'.
Pure greed.
Well I never had a problem with main dealers when I had pre-paid 5 year Service Plans in place for some reason!
But since then I've been taking my older BMWs to a former Sytner Apprentice of the Year who set up on his own once he finished his apprenticeship and I've also had no problems, at half the Sytner labour hourly rate - probably because he worked on cars of that age at Sytner.
Would a newbie technician realise any BMW with an N52 engine (that went out of production in around 2008) had a magnesium/aluminium block, so anything attached to it was attached with single use aluminium stretch bolts?
Or that an Inspection 1 or 2 service on a car with an S54 engine (also out of production around 2008) involved checking valve clearances and adjusting them by fitting shims if required?
My other local BMW Indy knows all this after 15 years at Sytner!
Now my cars are older I'm so much more comfortable taking them to people who worked on them back in the day, rather than risking a main dealer "monkey" at twice the price!
But since then I've been taking my older BMWs to a former Sytner Apprentice of the Year who set up on his own once he finished his apprenticeship and I've also had no problems, at half the Sytner labour hourly rate - probably because he worked on cars of that age at Sytner.
Would a newbie technician realise any BMW with an N52 engine (that went out of production in around 2008) had a magnesium/aluminium block, so anything attached to it was attached with single use aluminium stretch bolts?
Or that an Inspection 1 or 2 service on a car with an S54 engine (also out of production around 2008) involved checking valve clearances and adjusting them by fitting shims if required?
My other local BMW Indy knows all this after 15 years at Sytner!
Now my cars are older I'm so much more comfortable taking them to people who worked on them back in the day, rather than risking a main dealer "monkey" at twice the price!
Mr Tidy said:
Well I never had a problem with main dealers when I had pre-paid 5 year Service Plans in place for some reason!
But since then I've been taking my older BMWs to a former Sytner Apprentice of the Year who set up on his own once he finished his apprenticeship and I've also had no problems, at half the Sytner labour hourly rate - probably because he worked on cars of that age at Sytner.
You do realise the metrics by which he won that, would have been based on quantity of work and not on skill? I'm absolutely not saying he doesn't know what he's doing, I'm just saying that award had nothing to do with his skill level and only how fast he worked, because the people handing out those awards have never so much as picked up a spanner.But since then I've been taking my older BMWs to a former Sytner Apprentice of the Year who set up on his own once he finished his apprenticeship and I've also had no problems, at half the Sytner labour hourly rate - probably because he worked on cars of that age at Sytner.
Not dissimilar to where I work, people get promoted in title (not money, as the company is too tight for that) for being fast workers, but most of them, whilst nice enough people, are utterly clueless.
hi court said:
Read nearly all 14pages of this, just like to clear a few things up as a dealer employee for many years.
1) price of oil, just cos you can get it from euro car parts that meets the manufacturer spec cheaper doesn't mean the dealer is ripping you off. The manufacturer will specifically instruct what oil the dealer must use. And I dont mean it must be 5/30. It must be 5/30 castrol magnetec specifically for ford engines. Sometimes a barrel of engine oil can cost over a grand.
2) I know they never even replaced my oil filter.... yeah, well, some manufacturer scheduled servicing doesn't include an oil filter change, the official line is "engineering processes have proven the filter is just as good after 20k miles therefore isn't required at first 10k service to be replaced this reducing cost for the customer" so dont be alarmed if the filter appears untouched. There is even annual services with some manufacturers that dont include the oil to be changed.
And as for the whole oil being sucked out they cant even be bothered to drain it, well, again manufacturer will specify that's how to do it. You want the factory trained tech but dont want it done how the factory advises?
3) the oil is black so not been changed, I have personally changed oil and its black by the time it's got to the sump.
4) the pollen filter wasnt even changed cos I can tell the trim hasnt been removed.... well that's because the guy who does it does ten a day. Every day. For the last 15 years. He knows exactly how to remove that trim without leaving a mark. It's called experience.
5) parts are expensive. Manufacturer says that door handle is 90£ that's it, the dealer adds a small percentage plus vat that door handle is now £120. Sadly the parts department aim to make £10 on this door handle sale. That's ten whole pounds. But you'll be down the pub later saying what a rip off that main dealer is down the road are for charging £120 for a door handle. If we made it ourselves out the back for 50p I would agree with you, but we dont.
6) work charged and not done, honestly I have never come across this. Manufacturer mystery shops, Vosa mystery shops, trading standards mystery shops, internal mystery shops, outside agencies doing spot check quality checks. Work charged for IS carried out in my experience.
7) warranty work, nightmare in most cases. Manufacturer will tell the dealer what the labour rate will be this year, typically 50% of retail rate. Oh and they wont pay retail prices on parts either so we won't make any money out of that. And then will only pay what they say the time of the job should take. So that engine job they might only pay 6 hours for, when really a tech might have spent 12 hours on it. So say retail price is 100£ and hour. Manufacturer will pay £50. So essentially £25 an hour. And not made any money on parts. Take out techs wages, insurance, pension and all other overheads we will literally be lucky to make £20 profit on a big warranty job. And the comes the warranty audit. You missed off those bell housing bolts that you should of replaced on that engine job, rejected we're not paying.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
9) theres good and bad in all trades. I know customers that go back to the dealer for everything simply because they trust them. Tyres, key batteries,everything. These people aren't stupid. They just use a service provided by someone they trust.
One very final note to remember, once the manufacturer has sold the car their only source of revenue is from selling parts and from the dealer such as training courses, warranty charge backs, non compliance fines etc. I.e. you have the wrong shade of grey on those floor tiles, ten grand fine coming your way by the end of the month unless its retiled with the correct tiles. Oh by the way there is only one supplier in Europe of the correct tiles, and guess who the major shareholder is..... and guess what, they are four times the cost of anyone else.
That pretty much ties in with what someone told me recently about warranty claims and manufacturers.1) price of oil, just cos you can get it from euro car parts that meets the manufacturer spec cheaper doesn't mean the dealer is ripping you off. The manufacturer will specifically instruct what oil the dealer must use. And I dont mean it must be 5/30. It must be 5/30 castrol magnetec specifically for ford engines. Sometimes a barrel of engine oil can cost over a grand.
2) I know they never even replaced my oil filter.... yeah, well, some manufacturer scheduled servicing doesn't include an oil filter change, the official line is "engineering processes have proven the filter is just as good after 20k miles therefore isn't required at first 10k service to be replaced this reducing cost for the customer" so dont be alarmed if the filter appears untouched. There is even annual services with some manufacturers that dont include the oil to be changed.
And as for the whole oil being sucked out they cant even be bothered to drain it, well, again manufacturer will specify that's how to do it. You want the factory trained tech but dont want it done how the factory advises?
3) the oil is black so not been changed, I have personally changed oil and its black by the time it's got to the sump.
4) the pollen filter wasnt even changed cos I can tell the trim hasnt been removed.... well that's because the guy who does it does ten a day. Every day. For the last 15 years. He knows exactly how to remove that trim without leaving a mark. It's called experience.
5) parts are expensive. Manufacturer says that door handle is 90£ that's it, the dealer adds a small percentage plus vat that door handle is now £120. Sadly the parts department aim to make £10 on this door handle sale. That's ten whole pounds. But you'll be down the pub later saying what a rip off that main dealer is down the road are for charging £120 for a door handle. If we made it ourselves out the back for 50p I would agree with you, but we dont.
6) work charged and not done, honestly I have never come across this. Manufacturer mystery shops, Vosa mystery shops, trading standards mystery shops, internal mystery shops, outside agencies doing spot check quality checks. Work charged for IS carried out in my experience.
7) warranty work, nightmare in most cases. Manufacturer will tell the dealer what the labour rate will be this year, typically 50% of retail rate. Oh and they wont pay retail prices on parts either so we won't make any money out of that. And then will only pay what they say the time of the job should take. So that engine job they might only pay 6 hours for, when really a tech might have spent 12 hours on it. So say retail price is 100£ and hour. Manufacturer will pay £50. So essentially £25 an hour. And not made any money on parts. Take out techs wages, insurance, pension and all other overheads we will literally be lucky to make £20 profit on a big warranty job. And the comes the warranty audit. You missed off those bell housing bolts that you should of replaced on that engine job, rejected we're not paying.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
9) theres good and bad in all trades. I know customers that go back to the dealer for everything simply because they trust them. Tyres, key batteries,everything. These people aren't stupid. They just use a service provided by someone they trust.
One very final note to remember, once the manufacturer has sold the car their only source of revenue is from selling parts and from the dealer such as training courses, warranty charge backs, non compliance fines etc. I.e. you have the wrong shade of grey on those floor tiles, ten grand fine coming your way by the end of the month unless its retiled with the correct tiles. Oh by the way there is only one supplier in Europe of the correct tiles, and guess who the major shareholder is..... and guess what, they are four times the cost of anyone else.
Edited by hi court on Monday 24th February 23:38
But, from totally different industry perspective, I can tell you that customers who think their particular scenario requires all other paying customers to move aside, is not restricted to the motor industry.
PH is full of such people, expressing outrage that someone else isn't responsible for their poor personal planning and decision making.
But, it does also seem excessive when you have to pay £400 for a first oil change at 4500 miles.
hi court said:
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
A good tech or mechanic will say "no i'm bodging that customers car so that it has to come back again in a years time", "no i'm not going to find extra work that doesn't really need doing", "no I won't cover up for the salesman that took it out to lunch and dinged it".Such a tech/mechanic wouldn't last 5 minutes in a dealership...... They don't like people who have an opinion outside of the meeting/board room, they just want people who will do what they're told and are willing to compromise their professional integrity in the interest of profit.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff