Reasons why you don’t go to a main dealer for a service
Discussion
If this has been mentioned before, please forgive me, but for me the downhill path started many years ago when the whole franchise system was changed by the manufacturers. In my day the dealership margin on a new car was 17.5% and you negotiated it down as hard as you could, but I never had a deal under 10%. But, buying as I was an M6 that still left a good margin for the dealership. I had usually pre-sold my existing car privately in the day. the profit on the sale of cars meant that the service side of things could be more "honest" shall we say. For example, the M6 went in for the first proper service at 13 months so one month out of warranty and it was found that a head stud had snapped and the dealership, obviously with the agreement of BMW, changed the head for free. Phew!
But then the system was turned around, with the margin dropping to about 5% and bonuses paid on meeting targets, so it was more moving the metal at any cost in some cases. It was obvious from the deals available at the end of the month with cars being sold at virtually cost. So, the sales side was no longer taking the strain of making a good profit, and so it moved over to the servicing side, and the labour rates shot up. There is considerably less to service these days (no greasing points for example) but as a Jaguar man (though classic only) reading the horror stories of lies, incompetence, shoddy workmanship etc from the dealers makes my blood boil. The poor mechanics on the clock, given X minutes for each job, so who can blame them if a nut proves obstinate to remove and then they don't have the time allotted to do the rest? I have not been near a dealer this century, nor, at my age now, am ever likely to do so.
But then the system was turned around, with the margin dropping to about 5% and bonuses paid on meeting targets, so it was more moving the metal at any cost in some cases. It was obvious from the deals available at the end of the month with cars being sold at virtually cost. So, the sales side was no longer taking the strain of making a good profit, and so it moved over to the servicing side, and the labour rates shot up. There is considerably less to service these days (no greasing points for example) but as a Jaguar man (though classic only) reading the horror stories of lies, incompetence, shoddy workmanship etc from the dealers makes my blood boil. The poor mechanics on the clock, given X minutes for each job, so who can blame them if a nut proves obstinate to remove and then they don't have the time allotted to do the rest? I have not been near a dealer this century, nor, at my age now, am ever likely to do so.
lowdrag said:
If this has been mentioned before, please forgive me, but for me the downhill path started many years ago when the whole franchise system was changed by the manufacturers. In my day the dealership margin on a new car was 17.5% and you negotiated it down as hard as you could, but I never had a deal under 10%. But, buying as I was an M6 that still left a good margin for the dealership. I had usually pre-sold my existing car privately in the day. the profit on the sale of cars meant that the service side of things could be more "honest" shall we say. For example, the M6 went in for the first proper service at 13 months so one month out of warranty and it was found that a head stud had snapped and the dealership, obviously with the agreement of BMW, changed the head for free. Phew!
But then the system was turned around, with the margin dropping to about 5% and bonuses paid on meeting targets, so it was more moving the metal at any cost in some cases. It was obvious from the deals available at the end of the month with cars being sold at virtually cost. So, the sales side was no longer taking the strain of making a good profit, and so it moved over to the servicing side, and the labour rates shot up. There is considerably less to service these days (no greasing points for example) but as a Jaguar man (though classic only) reading the horror stories of lies, incompetence, shoddy workmanship etc from the dealers makes my blood boil. The poor mechanics on the clock, given X minutes for each job, so who can blame them if a nut proves obstinate to remove and then they don't have the time allotted to do the rest? I have not been near a dealer this century, nor, at my age now, am ever likely to do so.
You can thank the internet for dropping margins. Three clicks and you can compare the entire markets prices for a specific carBut then the system was turned around, with the margin dropping to about 5% and bonuses paid on meeting targets, so it was more moving the metal at any cost in some cases. It was obvious from the deals available at the end of the month with cars being sold at virtually cost. So, the sales side was no longer taking the strain of making a good profit, and so it moved over to the servicing side, and the labour rates shot up. There is considerably less to service these days (no greasing points for example) but as a Jaguar man (though classic only) reading the horror stories of lies, incompetence, shoddy workmanship etc from the dealers makes my blood boil. The poor mechanics on the clock, given X minutes for each job, so who can blame them if a nut proves obstinate to remove and then they don't have the time allotted to do the rest? I have not been near a dealer this century, nor, at my age now, am ever likely to do so.
lyonspride said:
A good tech or mechanic will say "no i'm bodging that customers car so that it has to come back again in a years time", "no i'm not going to find extra work that doesn't really need doing", "no I won't cover up for the salesman that took it out to lunch and dinged it".
Such a tech/mechanic wouldn't last 5 minutes in a dealership...... They don't like people who have an opinion outside of the meeting/board room, they just want people who will do what they're told and are willing to compromise their professional integrity in the interest of profit.
Total and utter garbage.Such a tech/mechanic wouldn't last 5 minutes in a dealership...... They don't like people who have an opinion outside of the meeting/board room, they just want people who will do what they're told and are willing to compromise their professional integrity in the interest of profit.
jamoor said:
p4cks said:
swisstoni said:
The whole setup needs a kick up the backside ...
I whole-heartedly agree. My background is in Customer Service/Customer Experience and I'd love to work for a dealership (even for a month or two) to show them the error of their ways and what customers actually want. They only seem to hire anyone with dealership experience as opposed to anyone outside of the industry who has new ideas so really, they'll never improve! I really want to leave school and be a service advisor at a dealership said no one ever. The industry doesn’t attract staff because of its terrible reputation.
It's not a terrible career choice? I don't think I'd earn the same money doing anything else similar. I love my job, I haven't always loved it, but I ended up at a good dealership.
Edited by sparks_190e on Wednesday 26th February 22:31
Edited by sparks_190e on Wednesday 26th February 22:38
hi court said:
Read nearly all 14pages of this, just like to clear a few things up as a dealer employee for many years.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
Yes, arent they just. As ive said before on this thread, motivate people to do the wrong thing and they will. Smashing through work in order to get bonus, simply cannot and never will result in good quality work.8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
Edited by hi court on Monday 24th February 23:38
As i say, hardly the techs fault, they are human and will respond to the pressures applied. Or get shown the door.
monkfish1 said:
hi court said:
Read nearly all 14pages of this, just like to clear a few things up as a dealer employee for many years.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
Yes, arent they just. As ive said before on this thread, motivate people to do the wrong thing and they will. Smashing through work in order to get bonus, simply cannot and never will result in good quality work.8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
Edited by hi court on Monday 24th February 23:38
As i say, hardly the techs fault, they are human and will respond to the pressures applied. Or get shown the door.
sparks_190e said:
monkfish1 said:
hi court said:
Read nearly all 14pages of this, just like to clear a few things up as a dealer employee for many years.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
Yes, arent they just. As ive said before on this thread, motivate people to do the wrong thing and they will. Smashing through work in order to get bonus, simply cannot and never will result in good quality work.8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
Edited by hi court on Monday 24th February 23:38
As i say, hardly the techs fault, they are human and will respond to the pressures applied. Or get shown the door.
Most people wouldnt even notice if the undertray fell off.
You will never persuade me the current bonus structure used by most main dealers is a good thing, at least as far as customer outcomes are concerned.
The success of our buisness was in no small part due to the way the main dealers treated the customers. Lets be honest, taking their business was like taking candy from a kid.
sparks_190e said:
jamoor said:
p4cks said:
swisstoni said:
The whole setup needs a kick up the backside ...
I whole-heartedly agree. My background is in Customer Service/Customer Experience and I'd love to work for a dealership (even for a month or two) to show them the error of their ways and what customers actually want. They only seem to hire anyone with dealership experience as opposed to anyone outside of the industry who has new ideas so really, they'll never improve! I really want to leave school and be a service advisor at a dealership said no one ever. The industry doesn’t attract staff because of its terrible reputation.
It's not a terrible career choice? I don't think I'd earn the same money doing anything else similar. I love my job, I haven't always loved it, but I ended up at a good dealership.
p4cks said:
sparks_190e said:
jamoor said:
p4cks said:
swisstoni said:
The whole setup needs a kick up the backside ...
I whole-heartedly agree. My background is in Customer Service/Customer Experience and I'd love to work for a dealership (even for a month or two) to show them the error of their ways and what customers actually want. They only seem to hire anyone with dealership experience as opposed to anyone outside of the industry who has new ideas so really, they'll never improve! I really want to leave school and be a service advisor at a dealership said no one ever. The industry doesn’t attract staff because of its terrible reputation.
It's not a terrible career choice? I don't think I'd earn the same money doing anything else similar. I love my job, I haven't always loved it, but I ended up at a good dealership.
It’s actually quite funny. The revolution is beginning and the salesman in a suit will very quickly be a thing of the past
It’s surprising that BMW staff haven’t realised that suits are for funerals.
Another gripe of the main dealers was deciding to take my Transit to the local Ford dealer when tracing a mystery misfire. Symptoms were Engine Malfunction message on the dashboard over 50mph. They managed to diagnose a cracked piston in cylinder 1. This was diagnosed without removal of injectors, glow plugs, engine head, anything. they quoted £8500 for a new engine (including £600 to dispose of the old engine?!). Stuff that, not throwing £8500 at any repair. It's a transit, not a Lamborghini. I think they didn't want the work in all honesty, the didn't even charge for the diagnosis and the free fault finding mission they give to all visiting vehicles (although this did show up a snapped drop link for me to fix afterwards). Turned out it was an injector on cylinder 2. Perhaps Mystic Meg's diagnostics were having an off day..
RazerSauber said:
Another gripe of the main dealers was deciding to take my Transit to the local Ford dealer when tracing a mystery misfire. Symptoms were Engine Malfunction message on the dashboard over 50mph. They managed to diagnose a cracked piston in cylinder 1. This was diagnosed without removal of injectors, glow plugs, engine head, anything. they quoted £8500 for a new engine (including £600 to dispose of the old engine?!). Stuff that, not throwing £8500 at any repair. It's a transit, not a Lamborghini. I think they didn't want the work in all honesty, the didn't even charge for the diagnosis and the free fault finding mission they give to all visiting vehicles (although this did show up a snapped drop link for me to fix afterwards). Turned out it was an injector on cylinder 2. Perhaps Mystic Meg's diagnostics were having an off day..
Indeed why would they book a mechanics time to diagnose a fault and repair which may not work at £85 an hour and all of the liability that comes with it when they can drop the oil in one for the same hourly rate with zero liability.That or they wanted you to buy a new van. Either way they didn’t want to work on your vehicle.
jamoor said:
RazerSauber said:
Another gripe of the main dealers was deciding to take my Transit to the local Ford dealer when tracing a mystery misfire. Symptoms were Engine Malfunction message on the dashboard over 50mph. They managed to diagnose a cracked piston in cylinder 1. This was diagnosed without removal of injectors, glow plugs, engine head, anything. they quoted £8500 for a new engine (including £600 to dispose of the old engine?!). Stuff that, not throwing £8500 at any repair. It's a transit, not a Lamborghini. I think they didn't want the work in all honesty, the didn't even charge for the diagnosis and the free fault finding mission they give to all visiting vehicles (although this did show up a snapped drop link for me to fix afterwards). Turned out it was an injector on cylinder 2. Perhaps Mystic Meg's diagnostics were having an off day..
Indeed why would they book a mechanics time to diagnose a fault and repair which may not work at £85 an hour and all of the liability that comes with it when they can drop the oil in one for the same hourly rate with zero liability.That or they wanted you to buy a new van. Either way they didn’t want to work on your vehicle.
I hate main dealers with a passion. They boil my piss and make me irrationally rage filled.
I don't have a problem with the overcharging, upselling, the ridiculous suits, the sales bull, the expensive oil, and everything else that gets levelled their way. It's not exactly uncommon for businesses to set up with a strategy of milking the thick or unwary and if the market can bear it then let them get stuck in.
What I have a problem with is the dishonesty and contempt shown whenever anyone dares to exercise their right to a warranty repair. They will push their dishonesty far beyond stubbornness to the point that any warranty claim may as well have to be submitted by a lawyer to have any chance of getting approved.
I've had a car belching oil vapour out of the engine to be told that some oil has been spilled on the exhaust. Before its first oil change. Claim denied. £80 diagnostic thanks.
I've had a van in for a chirping turbo that was sat on for a week to be told there was nothing up with it. It managed a couple of feet out of their parking space before it sat down and died with every warning light lit. Claim still denied. £80 Thanks.
Car fitted with clearly the wrong battery and would not stop-start in traffic. No sir it's normal behaviour. Claim denied, give us cash though.
I could go on, but it's worth mentioning that in the first case the piston rings were blown, in the second the turbo had eaten it's bearings, and in the third I needed to get a lawyer involved as the vehicle became unsafe in traffic.
With that level of dishonesty would I then pay over the odds to have them change engine critical parts that may or may not do to spec, and may affect the vehicle for years to come? A root canal with a used toothpick is more appealing.
Customer service for the win.
I don't have a problem with the overcharging, upselling, the ridiculous suits, the sales bull, the expensive oil, and everything else that gets levelled their way. It's not exactly uncommon for businesses to set up with a strategy of milking the thick or unwary and if the market can bear it then let them get stuck in.
What I have a problem with is the dishonesty and contempt shown whenever anyone dares to exercise their right to a warranty repair. They will push their dishonesty far beyond stubbornness to the point that any warranty claim may as well have to be submitted by a lawyer to have any chance of getting approved.
I've had a car belching oil vapour out of the engine to be told that some oil has been spilled on the exhaust. Before its first oil change. Claim denied. £80 diagnostic thanks.
I've had a van in for a chirping turbo that was sat on for a week to be told there was nothing up with it. It managed a couple of feet out of their parking space before it sat down and died with every warning light lit. Claim still denied. £80 Thanks.
Car fitted with clearly the wrong battery and would not stop-start in traffic. No sir it's normal behaviour. Claim denied, give us cash though.
I could go on, but it's worth mentioning that in the first case the piston rings were blown, in the second the turbo had eaten it's bearings, and in the third I needed to get a lawyer involved as the vehicle became unsafe in traffic.
With that level of dishonesty would I then pay over the odds to have them change engine critical parts that may or may not do to spec, and may affect the vehicle for years to come? A root canal with a used toothpick is more appealing.
Customer service for the win.
Edited by Coire on Thursday 27th February 13:17
Fortunately we can remind ourselves of some of the more realistic input to this thread,
hi court said:
Read nearly all 14pages of this, just like to clear a few things up as a dealer employee for many years.
1) price of oil, just cos you can get it from euro car parts that meets the manufacturer spec cheaper doesn't mean the dealer is ripping you off. The manufacturer will specifically instruct what oil the dealer must use. And I dont mean it must be 5/30. It must be 5/30 castrol magnetec specifically for ford engines. Sometimes a barrel of engine oil can cost over a grand.
2) I know they never even replaced my oil filter.... yeah, well, some manufacturer scheduled servicing doesn't include an oil filter change, the official line is "engineering processes have proven the filter is just as good after 20k miles therefore isn't required at first 10k service to be replaced this reducing cost for the customer" so dont be alarmed if the filter appears untouched. There is even annual services with some manufacturers that dont include the oil to be changed.
And as for the whole oil being sucked out they cant even be bothered to drain it, well, again manufacturer will specify that's how to do it. You want the factory trained tech but dont want it done how the factory advises?
3) the oil is black so not been changed, I have personally changed oil and its black by the time it's got to the sump.
4) the pollen filter wasnt even changed cos I can tell the trim hasnt been removed.... well that's because the guy who does it does ten a day. Every day. For the last 15 years. He knows exactly how to remove that trim without leaving a mark. It's called experience.
5) parts are expensive. Manufacturer says that door handle is 90£ that's it, the dealer adds a small percentage plus vat that door handle is now £120. Sadly the parts department aim to make £10 on this door handle sale. That's ten whole pounds. But you'll be down the pub later saying what a rip off that main dealer is down the road are for charging £120 for a door handle. If we made it ourselves out the back for 50p I would agree with you, but we dont.
6) work charged and not done, honestly I have never come across this. Manufacturer mystery shops, Vosa mystery shops, trading standards mystery shops, internal mystery shops, outside agencies doing spot check quality checks. Work charged for IS carried out in my experience.
7) warranty work, nightmare in most cases. Manufacturer will tell the dealer what the labour rate will be this year, typically 50% of retail rate. Oh and they wont pay retail prices on parts either so we won't make any money out of that. And then will only pay what they say the time of the job should take. So that engine job they might only pay 6 hours for, when really a tech might have spent 12 hours on it. So say retail price is 100£ and hour. Manufacturer will pay £50. So essentially £25 an hour. And not made any money on parts. Take out techs wages, insurance, pension and all other overheads we will literally be lucky to make £20 profit on a big warranty job. And the comes the warranty audit. You missed off those bell housing bolts that you should of replaced on that engine job, rejected we're not paying.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
9) theres good and bad in all trades. I know customers that go back to the dealer for everything simply because they trust them. Tyres, key batteries,everything. These people aren't stupid. They just use a service provided by someone they trust.
One very final note to remember, once the manufacturer has sold the car their only source of revenue is from selling parts and from the dealer such as training courses, warranty charge backs, non compliance fines etc. I.e. you have the wrong shade of grey on those floor tiles, ten grand fine coming your way by the end of the month unless its retiled with the correct tiles. Oh by the way there is only one supplier in Europe of the correct tiles, and guess who the major shareholder is..... and guess what, they are four times the cost of anyone else.
1) price of oil, just cos you can get it from euro car parts that meets the manufacturer spec cheaper doesn't mean the dealer is ripping you off. The manufacturer will specifically instruct what oil the dealer must use. And I dont mean it must be 5/30. It must be 5/30 castrol magnetec specifically for ford engines. Sometimes a barrel of engine oil can cost over a grand.
2) I know they never even replaced my oil filter.... yeah, well, some manufacturer scheduled servicing doesn't include an oil filter change, the official line is "engineering processes have proven the filter is just as good after 20k miles therefore isn't required at first 10k service to be replaced this reducing cost for the customer" so dont be alarmed if the filter appears untouched. There is even annual services with some manufacturers that dont include the oil to be changed.
And as for the whole oil being sucked out they cant even be bothered to drain it, well, again manufacturer will specify that's how to do it. You want the factory trained tech but dont want it done how the factory advises?
3) the oil is black so not been changed, I have personally changed oil and its black by the time it's got to the sump.
4) the pollen filter wasnt even changed cos I can tell the trim hasnt been removed.... well that's because the guy who does it does ten a day. Every day. For the last 15 years. He knows exactly how to remove that trim without leaving a mark. It's called experience.
5) parts are expensive. Manufacturer says that door handle is 90£ that's it, the dealer adds a small percentage plus vat that door handle is now £120. Sadly the parts department aim to make £10 on this door handle sale. That's ten whole pounds. But you'll be down the pub later saying what a rip off that main dealer is down the road are for charging £120 for a door handle. If we made it ourselves out the back for 50p I would agree with you, but we dont.
6) work charged and not done, honestly I have never come across this. Manufacturer mystery shops, Vosa mystery shops, trading standards mystery shops, internal mystery shops, outside agencies doing spot check quality checks. Work charged for IS carried out in my experience.
7) warranty work, nightmare in most cases. Manufacturer will tell the dealer what the labour rate will be this year, typically 50% of retail rate. Oh and they wont pay retail prices on parts either so we won't make any money out of that. And then will only pay what they say the time of the job should take. So that engine job they might only pay 6 hours for, when really a tech might have spent 12 hours on it. So say retail price is 100£ and hour. Manufacturer will pay £50. So essentially £25 an hour. And not made any money on parts. Take out techs wages, insurance, pension and all other overheads we will literally be lucky to make £20 profit on a big warranty job. And the comes the warranty audit. You missed off those bell housing bolts that you should of replaced on that engine job, rejected we're not paying.
8) techs in the garage are just fitters, the ones any good go and setup by them selves. Wrong. On so many levels. The techs I know who have set up by themselves weren't wanted badly enough by the dealer so they let them go. The ones genuinely pretty good are retained and rewarded in surprising ways ££££.
9) theres good and bad in all trades. I know customers that go back to the dealer for everything simply because they trust them. Tyres, key batteries,everything. These people aren't stupid. They just use a service provided by someone they trust.
One very final note to remember, once the manufacturer has sold the car their only source of revenue is from selling parts and from the dealer such as training courses, warranty charge backs, non compliance fines etc. I.e. you have the wrong shade of grey on those floor tiles, ten grand fine coming your way by the end of the month unless its retiled with the correct tiles. Oh by the way there is only one supplier in Europe of the correct tiles, and guess who the major shareholder is..... and guess what, they are four times the cost of anyone else.
Kind of thing you battle against as a mechanic...
Did a job the other day, my diagnosis was spark plugs needed and new thermostat housing (vauxhall)
Girl in office phones woman “but it had new plugs a few months ago at vauxhall and I’ve hardly used it”
It’s no wonder people have trust issues with garages really. See so much of this sort of thing.
Oh, here’s the recent plugs she had fitted compared to the new plugs I fitted.
Did a job the other day, my diagnosis was spark plugs needed and new thermostat housing (vauxhall)
Girl in office phones woman “but it had new plugs a few months ago at vauxhall and I’ve hardly used it”
It’s no wonder people have trust issues with garages really. See so much of this sort of thing.
Oh, here’s the recent plugs she had fitted compared to the new plugs I fitted.
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