RE: Alpine A110S vs. Porsche 718 GT4 vs. Audi R8 RWS

[julian64]

Miserablegit said:

“Back when I were a lad” a q-car was something that looked like a family car but went like the proverbial off a digging implement.
A v10-equipped car would never be in that category and I wouldn’t take issue with anyone describing a car with a howling v10 as “theatre”
Tough crowd !

When I were a lad a Q car would be a fiat 124 sport, and a theatre car would be the lancia montecarlo.

They both had similar ability but one would be on the wall of your bedroom and the other wouldn't
Never seen a kid with an Audi R8 on the wall unless it had iron man standing in front of it.
However change the skirts around the engine to a Gallardo and wham, 'theatre' back up on the wall despite the fact its possibly an inferior handling car.

Talking about the engine noise having theatre by itself doesn't impress the kid in me. And to be honest without the kid I wouldn't buy any impractical cars.

Just me though.

[CABC]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

although it's having to carry around less lard of course.

kind of important

[bcr5784]

Hungrymc said:

I don’t think it’s too hard to believe that some would find it disappointing that the Alpine has switchgear designed for a much cheaper car? That’s built on the reasonable assumption that generally quality and feel improve as specifications increase with models / costs.

.

But, as has been pointed out, that applies to some far more expensive cars too - Ferraris etc. I can concede that if I was buying a Rolls or a Bugatti I might expect something bespoke everywhere- but I suspect if I looked hard enough I'd be disappointed to find two bit components from the corporate parts bin. Can you believe a VW engine in a Chiron!!! You might like to delude yourself that a Lamborghini was built with higher quality components than an Audi, which was build to a higher standard than a VW. than a Seat or Skoda - but you would be deluding yourself.

[bcr5784]

mr pg said:

The Alpine is a car I'd seriously consider to replace our 981 CS, but there's one aspect that just wouldn't work for us.
We do a euro trip every year, and this year it's 2 1/2 weeks instead of 2, and there's just not enough luggage space in comparison. The front boot has about half the volume, and that alone rules it out which is a shame as I love the concept of a lightweight mid engine coupe.

Actually the front boot is 2/3 the size - 100 vs 150 littes but shallow I'd acknowledge, However I've had luggage for a 3 week holiday in the Alpine with space to spare for shopping. True I've got bespoke luggage to use the space most effectively - but not too expensive. There is a lot of space behind the seats of smaller passengers too - the A110 can accommodate a 6' 6 driver.. Have you thought of changing the wife?

Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 12th February 20:00

Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 12th February 20:10

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Miserablegit said:

“Back when I were a lad” a q-car was something that looked like a family car but went like the proverbial off a digging implement.

To me, that's still the definition of a Q-car. Sadly, though, the term has been abused to the point of being meaningless now.

[Hungrymc]

bcr5784 said:

Hungrymc said:

I don’t think it’s too hard to believe that some would find it disappointing that the Alpine has switchgear designed for a much cheaper car? That’s built on the reasonable assumption that generally quality and feel improve as specifications increase with models / costs.
.

But, as has been pointed out, that applies to some far more expensive cars too - Ferraris etc. I can concede that if I was buying a Rolls or a Bugatti I might expect something bespoke everywhere- but I suspect if I looked hard enough I'd be disappointed to find two bit components from the corporate parts bin. Can you believe a VW engine in a Chiron!!! You might like to delude yourself that a Lamborghini was built with higher quality components than an Audi, which was build to a higher standard than a VW. than a Seat or Skoda - but you would be deluding yourself.

Why go for “Deluding yourself” ? Once again you’re going straight into some personal judgment. Respectfully, I think this is the kind of approach that everyone is criticising some of the Porsche fans for.

I’m not fully buying into your argument. Take a look at the manufacturing method for the A-surface carbon fibre in the interior of a Chiron. It’s nothing short of spectacular craftsmanship. Now I can’t afford a Chiron anyway. But I find it odd that the inference is anyone who buys one is a badge snob and / or deluded.

I’m less familiar with the interior of Lamborghini. But I’m close enough to the supply of mainstream VAG interiors and off course there is a walk in specification from the city cars to the upper end. There are common specifications across all VAG brands, but there is also plenty of add on requirements as you walk up the platforms and models.

Don’t forget I’m absolutely fine with the Alpine interior I find it very pleasant. I’m only challenging the claim that anyone who wants higher quality is a badge snob and / or deluded.

[anonymous-user]

My Lotus Esprit had "Morris Marina door handles" and "Rover rear lights". Did I care? No.

[Hungrymc]

rockin said:

My Lotus Esprit had "Morris Marina door handles" and "Rover rear lights". Did I care? No.

Absolutely. The key to being able to build cars like these is to be efficient with the investments.

Nothing wrong with Alpine using Renault bits to my mind. The car wouldn’t exist (or would be far more expensive and poorly developed) if it didn’t have a good parts bin to use. But I also understand that some would favour higher quality, and that’s ok too.

I’m hoping that we really see Lotus kick on with their access to Volvo (and maybe even Daimler) through Geely. I personally don’t want to see Lotus developing HVACs or infotainment or switches etc. I want to see them fettling a good base power unit, and really focusing on chassis and dynamics.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

rockin said:

My Lotus Esprit had "Morris Marina door handles" and "Rover rear lights". Did I care? No.

My TVR has parts from all over the place too.

Although, and I realise this muddies the waters on the discussion somewhat, all major controls are lovely turned / cast aluminium and manage to disguise whatever humble underpinnings are beneath them. The indicators are something raided from the Vauxhall parts bin, I think, but you wouldn't know it.

Mind you, having said that, since TVR are effectively no more you could cite that as an example of why you shouldn't do that and should stick to the unadorned parts bin like Lotus did.

[Hungrymc]

mr pg said:

The Alpine is a car I'd seriously consider to replace our 981 CS, but there's one aspect that just wouldn't work for us.
We do a euro trip every year, and this year it's 2 1/2 weeks instead of 2, and there's just not enough luggage space in comparison. The front boot has about half the volume, and that alone rules it out which is a shame as I love the concept of a lightweight mid engine coupe.

I wouldn’t give up on it too quickly. I’d have a good go at packing a little lighter as it’s a shame to miss out on the car you want for the other 49.5 weeks a year. They’re tiny but that brings lots of benefits.

[bcr5784]

Hungrymc said:

Why go for “Deluding yourself” ? Once again you’re going straight into some personal judgment. Respectfully, I think this is the kind of approach that everyone is criticising some of the Porsche fans for.

I’m not fully buying into your argument. Take a look at the manufacturing method for the A-surface carbon fibre in the interior of a Chiron. It’s nothing short of spectacular craftsmanship. Now I can’t afford a Chiron anyway. But I find it odd that the inference is anyone who buys one is a badge snob and / or deluded.

I’m less familiar with the interior of Lamborghini. But I’m close enough to the supply of mainstream VAG interiors and off course there is a walk in specification from the city cars to the upper end. There are common specifications across all VAG brands, but there is also plenty of add on requirements as you walk up the platforms and models.

Don’t forget I’m absolutely fine with the Alpine interior I find it very pleasant. I’m only challenging the claim that anyone who wants higher quality is a badge snob and / or deluded.

As I have said the interior switchgear of the Cayman HAS more showroom appeal initially. Obviously, all things being equal, then we'd all prefer good aesthetics But things aren't equal - the Cayman switchgear ergonomics are crap. If you value form over function, that is a choice you can obviously make - it's not the choice I'd make.

But all that is pretty irrelevant - the criticisms being made weren't that the switchgear was poor or even unattractive, but that it came from other Renault models. As I said, I personally COULD make valid criticisms (apart of their origin) of the Alpine switchgear - fact is no-one actually has made any - and you have to ask yourself why.

[CS Garth]

Hungrymc said:

mr pg said:

The Alpine is a car I'd seriously consider to replace our 981 CS, but there's one aspect that just wouldn't work for us.
We do a euro trip every year, and this year it's 2 1/2 weeks instead of 2, and there's just not enough luggage space in comparison. The front boot has about half the volume, and that alone rules it out which is a shame as I love the concept of a lightweight mid engine coupe.

I wouldn’t give up on it too quickly. I’d have a good go at packing a little lighter as it’s a shame to miss out on the car you want for the other 49.5 weeks a year. They’re tiny but that brings lots of benefits.

Yep - just pack properly and pick up the inflatable unicorn when you’re out there.

[bcr5784]

Hungrymc said:

They’re tiny but that brings lots of benefits.

That's a bit of a misrepresentation - I wish it were really tiny. Small, sure but bigger - and with significantly more luggage space than an MX5 - 20% less than a Boxster (ignoring the greater space the Alpine has behind the seats) , about the same as the Supra (there's no division between the boot and the cabin). The only alternative which really trumps it for luggage space is the Cayman - and that trumps everything else too, including a Ford Focus....

[nickfrog]

blueg33 said:

The amateur psychologist in me thinks that some Porsche owners get defensive because deep down they know that they based their decision on the brand first and driving second, possibly assuming that the driving is the best because it’s a Porsche.

They then fall into cognitive dissonance when other cars especially cheaper or similar priced ones are reported as better to drive. They haven’t driven the other cars so resort to what they think is safe ground like switchgear and stitching

Sorry but that's very silly. If you buy the Porsche for the driving experience, which quite frankly is very possible IME of owning a couple, are you supposed to not buy it in case someone on PH is going to accuse you of being shallow? . It's entirely possible for a car to be a great drive despite the fact that it happens to also appeal to some badge snobs.

[Hungrymc]

I suspect those who have commented on its origins are questioning its quality. I believe the quality is perfectly acceptable. But I understand some would like more.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

nickfrog said:

Sorry but that's very silly. If you buy the Porsche for the driving experience, which quite frankly is very possible IME of owning a couple, are you supposed to not buy it in case someone on PH is going to accuse you of being shallow? . It's entirely possible for a car to be a great drive despite the fact that it happens to also appeal to some badge snobs.

Very true. However, it's the ones who buy it for the badge that are the ones who are so fragile and defensive about it, in my opinion. I guess that any criticism of the badge is going to be perceived, by extension, as a personal criticism.

[Matty3]

Great cars but wouldn't buy any of them because there are much better cars out there.

[anonymous-user]

Matty3 said:

Great cars but wouldn't buy any of them because there are much better cars out there.

If you've read the thread you'll know Lotus and McLaren have already been mentioned. Perhaps there was something else you had in mind?

[Dolf Stoppard]

Alpine looks brilliant and a heart vs head decision over cheaper Caymans. R8 is obviously in a different league. If you’re offered a £90k Cayman you’d probably buy it, not an Alpine, and probably not an R8. But if you want an R8, it’s what you’re going to buy. Unless you get offered a GT4 before...

For me, a new A110, used Cayman or £45k R8. I’ve had the middle one, so the first or the last.

I just don’t know..!

[nickfrog]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Very true. However, it's the ones who buy it for the badge that are the ones who are so fragile and defensive about it, in my opinion. I guess that any criticism of the badge is going to be perceived, by extension, as a personal criticism.

Yes probably.