Stupid design / difficult repairs caused by "packaging"
Discussion
Only had a very brief involvement with VAG cars but a few months with a Mk 7 golf was enough for me.
On the 1.6 CR oil burner:
No ability to prime the fuel filter without diags on a laptop.
No ability to easily change rear brake pads without diags on a laptop (prob fairly standard on auto handbrake cars but still).
Silly little bag of silicone crap in coolant tank which makes coolant viscous and block the heater core on a 5 year old car.
Very difficult to change coolant, removing lower hose gets you about 1 litre out of it. No idea what the official procedure is but the cooling system has an electric slave pump so I presume that involves a laptop also.
DAB reception was laughable, no aerial all done by a slave box to rear of car using the rear demister as a aerial. s
te.
Passenger side headlight bulb needed to be changed through the wheel arch liner. Drivers could be done in 30 secs normally.
EGR valve on these also is best part of a all day job and requires the removal of the DPF and a drive shaft.
We no longer have the Golf.
On the 1.6 CR oil burner:
No ability to prime the fuel filter without diags on a laptop.
No ability to easily change rear brake pads without diags on a laptop (prob fairly standard on auto handbrake cars but still).
Silly little bag of silicone crap in coolant tank which makes coolant viscous and block the heater core on a 5 year old car.
Very difficult to change coolant, removing lower hose gets you about 1 litre out of it. No idea what the official procedure is but the cooling system has an electric slave pump so I presume that involves a laptop also.
DAB reception was laughable, no aerial all done by a slave box to rear of car using the rear demister as a aerial. s
te.Passenger side headlight bulb needed to be changed through the wheel arch liner. Drivers could be done in 30 secs normally.
EGR valve on these also is best part of a all day job and requires the removal of the DPF and a drive shaft.
We no longer have the Golf.
If we're talking pollen filters, on the mk3 megane you have you remove several trim panels and the clutch pedal to get anywhere near it. You'll still have to be laying upside down in the footwell though. Probably an easier job on LHD cars mind you.
The hole the filter goes in is smaller than the filter so you have to sort of squash it in and hope it springs back to the right shape when its inside.
The hole the filter goes in is smaller than the filter so you have to sort of squash it in and hope it springs back to the right shape when its inside.
Edited by Nealio on Monday 17th February 18:43
Nealio said:
The hole the filter goes in is smaller than the filter so you have to sort of squash it in and hope it springs back to the right shape when its inside.
The pollen filter on the Clio has this squashy feature too. And you have to be in the footwell to squash it in.Edited by Nealio on Monday 17th February 18:43
Krikkit said:
Love these threads, believe it or not the car companies do think about this stuff, design engineers aren't just doing it to wind you guys up.
Cost, regulation, cost, packaging for design, cost, cost cost. Pick any 3 reasons.
e.g. Porsche and the 996 headlight mechanism - a very expensive and convoluted piece of design, doesn't make sense for BMW to engineer that kind of thing into a 1-series.
Cost, regulation, cost, packaging for design, cost, cost cost. Pick any 3 reasons.
e.g. Porsche and the 996 headlight mechanism - a very expensive and convoluted piece of design, doesn't make sense for BMW to engineer that kind of thing into a 1-series.
No doubt true of modern cars, but not much of an excuse for MGBs and BL Minis!
jamesson said:
Mixed bag on my cars. BMW E36 six cylinder oil filter in a metal housing front and centre upon lifting the bonnet. An absolute doddle to replace and the air filter takes about twenty seconds from start to finish.
Cabin filter, on the other hand, means removal of the entire windsreen wiper mechanism and scuttle.
Aircon models had the pollen filter under the dash (driver's side footwell), much easier. Cabin filter, on the other hand, means removal of the entire windsreen wiper mechanism and scuttle.
smiley_boy2501 said:
Volvo V50 T5
Good - headlight slips out after 1 tent peg removed
Bad - battery disconnection requires removing the front strut brace. There's an easy access panel for the positive but not negative wires?!
- washer bottle lid is just above the left headlamp so you inevitably soak the connectors everytime and the Volvo loves to drink washer fluid (and fuel)
Tried changing your cabin filter yet? You'll wish you had to change the battery 3 times by the time that's done.Good - headlight slips out after 1 tent peg removed
Bad - battery disconnection requires removing the front strut brace. There's an easy access panel for the positive but not negative wires?!
- washer bottle lid is just above the left headlamp so you inevitably soak the connectors everytime and the Volvo loves to drink washer fluid (and fuel)
jamesson said:
Mixed bag on my cars. BMW E36 six cylinder oil filter in a metal housing front and centre upon lifting the bonnet. An absolute doddle to replace and the air filter takes about twenty seconds from start to finish.
Cabin filter, on the other hand, means removal of the entire windsreen wiper mechanism and scuttle.
.
Yes BMW didn't really get cabin filters right in the early days... like cupholders.... Again, if it's anything like the E34 I mentioned earlier, I wonder if the E36 cabin filter was also added mid production run.Cabin filter, on the other hand, means removal of the entire windsreen wiper mechanism and scuttle.
.
g3org3y said:
jamesson said:
Mixed bag on my cars. BMW E36 six cylinder oil filter in a metal housing front and centre upon lifting the bonnet. An absolute doddle to replace and the air filter takes about twenty seconds from start to finish.
Cabin filter, on the other hand, means removal of the entire windsreen wiper mechanism and scuttle.
Aircon models had the pollen filter under the dash (driver's side footwell), much easier. Cabin filter, on the other hand, means removal of the entire windsreen wiper mechanism and scuttle.
The BMW washer reservoir can get the filters bunged up if you swap between different brands of screen wash a lot, I had an E53 X5 that had filters covered in blue goo, luckily the bottle was i the engine bay so it was a 5 min fix. I've always been careful to stick to one brand (Prestone from Costco) since with no issues.
I did once have to change the aux belt on an MGF. I looked on google, first step, jack up the car and remove the rear wheel!
The belt was behind a panel in the wheelarch.
Limpet said:
Coincidentally our old one (mk2 Grand Scenic) was the car that immediately sprang to mind when I saw the thread title.
Whereas some cars strike you as having been designed without consideration given to maintenance, the Scenic II was so horrible to do even the simplest jobs on that I cannot believe it wasn't deliberately designed that way. No manufacturer gets something that wrong through chance or thoughtlessness. I hated working on it, but more tellingly so did the professional mechanics I entrusted with various jobs. They all remarked how appallingly, almost spitefully designed these cars are from a maintenance perspective.
Not helped either by the number of designed-in faults, and shoddy quality which see to it that it will be coming apart frequently.
Our old one was last MOT'd at 7 years old with 80,000 miles on it.
I haven't had another Renault since this, and I would still struggle to own one now. Utter, utter crap.
As a former Renault owner, I agree 100% with everything you say, haven’t had another since and have struck them off as a consideration. Truly terrible. Whereas some cars strike you as having been designed without consideration given to maintenance, the Scenic II was so horrible to do even the simplest jobs on that I cannot believe it wasn't deliberately designed that way. No manufacturer gets something that wrong through chance or thoughtlessness. I hated working on it, but more tellingly so did the professional mechanics I entrusted with various jobs. They all remarked how appallingly, almost spitefully designed these cars are from a maintenance perspective.
Not helped either by the number of designed-in faults, and shoddy quality which see to it that it will be coming apart frequently.
Our old one was last MOT'd at 7 years old with 80,000 miles on it.
I haven't had another Renault since this, and I would still struggle to own one now. Utter, utter crap.
One local garage even declined to do work on it. I laughed and asked why. He’s exact response: “mate we’ve always got enough work to be busy for 2 weeks ahead, can’t stand working on them and the labour costs for even simple jobs are so eye watering it feels like an insult to customers when we provide the bill. So we just decided to decline working on them. Sorry lad. Bye”.
Edited by Plate spinner on Tuesday 18th February 15:05
Plate spinner said:
Limpet said:
Coincidentally our old one (mk2 Grand Scenic) was the car that immediately sprang to mind when I saw the thread title.
Whereas some cars strike you as having been designed without consideration given to maintenance, the Scenic II was so horrible to do even the simplest jobs on that I cannot believe it wasn't deliberately designed that way. No manufacturer gets something that wrong through chance or thoughtlessness. I hated working on it, but more tellingly so did the professional mechanics I entrusted with various jobs. They all remarked how appallingly, almost spitefully designed these cars are from a maintenance perspective.
Not helped either by the number of designed-in faults, and shoddy quality which see to it that it will be coming apart frequently.
Our old one was last MOT'd at 7 years old with 80,000 miles on it.
I haven't had another Renault since this, and I would still struggle to own one now. Utter, utter crap.
As a former Renault owner, I agree 100% with everything you say, haven’t had another since and have struck them off as a consideration. Truly terrible. Whereas some cars strike you as having been designed without consideration given to maintenance, the Scenic II was so horrible to do even the simplest jobs on that I cannot believe it wasn't deliberately designed that way. No manufacturer gets something that wrong through chance or thoughtlessness. I hated working on it, but more tellingly so did the professional mechanics I entrusted with various jobs. They all remarked how appallingly, almost spitefully designed these cars are from a maintenance perspective.
Not helped either by the number of designed-in faults, and shoddy quality which see to it that it will be coming apart frequently.
Our old one was last MOT'd at 7 years old with 80,000 miles on it.
I haven't had another Renault since this, and I would still struggle to own one now. Utter, utter crap.
One local garage even declined to do work on it. I laughed and asked why. He’s exact response: “mate we’ve always got enough work to be busy for 2 weeks ahead, can’t stand working on them and the labour costs for even simple jobs are so eye watering it feels like an insult to customers when we provide the bill. So we just decided to decline working on them. Sorry lad. Bye”.
Edited by Plate spinner on Tuesday 18th February 15:05
The hardest job (that is a routine one) that I have come across is changing rear brake pads on Alfa Alfettas and 75s with inboard discs. There is only *just* enough space to get the pads in and out and it is a matter of feel to remove/replace the pins and clips.
Citroen DS spark plugs can be interesting, too...with one only accessible from inside the car through the dash!
The bypass hose mentioned previously on a BL A-series was a pain until I had a small aluminium pipe made with O-rings internally...lasted the life of a head gasket!
Some things are just (very) bad design, if not difficult to access...
Changing the front strut inserts on a Skoda Felicia...the strut clamp bolt is totally unprotected and gets properly corroded in, requiring cutting out!
More recently, have to say the rear hub bearings on E46 BMWs are a proper mission to get out! Certainly not a DIY job.
Citroen DS spark plugs can be interesting, too...with one only accessible from inside the car through the dash!
The bypass hose mentioned previously on a BL A-series was a pain until I had a small aluminium pipe made with O-rings internally...lasted the life of a head gasket!
Some things are just (very) bad design, if not difficult to access...
Changing the front strut inserts on a Skoda Felicia...the strut clamp bolt is totally unprotected and gets properly corroded in, requiring cutting out!
More recently, have to say the rear hub bearings on E46 BMWs are a proper mission to get out! Certainly not a DIY job.
fushion julz said:
The hardest job (that is a routine one) that I have come across is changing rear brake pads on Alfa Alfettas and 75s with inboard discs. There is only *just* enough space to get the pads in and out and it is a matter of feel to remove/replace the pins and clips.
I had a Cloverleaf Sprint, the inboard discs were at the front, absolute nightmare.Just remembered that one of the rear parking sensors stopped working on the Beetle so had to go to the local auto electrician who informed me that he couldn't tell me which sensor was faulty until the rear bumper was off the car, which obviously turned a simple five minute job into a full blown afternoon task and a subsequent £300 + bill which I was none too chuffed about.
And it gets better...
Having replaced the faulty rear parking sensor I noticed a few days later a few scratch marks on the rear bumper so asked the wife what had happened and she confessed that she had backed the car into the wall whilst reversing the car on the driveway, I asked her whether the parking sensors were working to which she replied yes, so I asked her why did she hit the wall... she said she thought she had more space!!!
And it gets better...
Having replaced the faulty rear parking sensor I noticed a few days later a few scratch marks on the rear bumper so asked the wife what had happened and she confessed that she had backed the car into the wall whilst reversing the car on the driveway, I asked her whether the parking sensors were working to which she replied yes, so I asked her why did she hit the wall... she said she thought she had more space!!!
gazza285 said:
fushion julz said:
The hardest job (that is a routine one) that I have come across is changing rear brake pads on Alfa Alfettas and 75s with inboard discs. There is only *just* enough space to get the pads in and out and it is a matter of feel to remove/replace the pins and clips.
I had a Cloverleaf Sprint, the inboard discs were at the front, absolute nightmare.A couple of recently experienced issues with a Smart Roadster.
To change the six spark plugs you need to remove the entire rear of the car. This often means three of the plugs have never been changed because of the costs involved......
To change the brake pedal switch means opening the roof, put your legs out the roof to gain access to the switch which can get water damaged. Or you can remove the bonnet and scuttle tray to gain access. I ached for sometime afterwards having contorted myself into the correct position.
Alfa 156 was also a pain to change the headlight bulbs.
Probably plenty of others that I cannot recall at the moment.....
Mike
To change the six spark plugs you need to remove the entire rear of the car. This often means three of the plugs have never been changed because of the costs involved......
To change the brake pedal switch means opening the roof, put your legs out the roof to gain access to the switch which can get water damaged. Or you can remove the bonnet and scuttle tray to gain access. I ached for sometime afterwards having contorted myself into the correct position.
Alfa 156 was also a pain to change the headlight bulbs.
Probably plenty of others that I cannot recall at the moment.....
Mike
Volvo C30 head light removal consists of pulling out a small bar then pushing / pulling it off the rubber grommet / sleeve things. It took longer to get the bulb out of the packet.
Mini Cooper convertible brake light bulb replacement was a bit more of a challenge as you need to remove a small panel behind the light. then, with your double jointed wrists you need to unbolt a 10mm bolt you can't see, 1/8 of a turn at a time, being careful to not drop the nut when you get it off else it disappears into the depths of the rear wing. Replacement is fun, as you have to get the same nut back onto the stud on the back of the light and tighten it without dropping it into the depths of the rear wing, meaning you have to take the light back out again...
Mini Cooper convertible brake light bulb replacement was a bit more of a challenge as you need to remove a small panel behind the light. then, with your double jointed wrists you need to unbolt a 10mm bolt you can't see, 1/8 of a turn at a time, being careful to not drop the nut when you get it off else it disappears into the depths of the rear wing. Replacement is fun, as you have to get the same nut back onto the stud on the back of the light and tighten it without dropping it into the depths of the rear wing, meaning you have to take the light back out again...
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