Stupid design / difficult repairs caused by "packaging"
Discussion
Pat H said:
It’s nothing new.
Try replacing the thermostat bypass hose on an Austin Mini.
But the worst, by a country mile, is the rear manifold lambda sensor on an Alfa 156 V6.
I have replaced a petrol tank on an Esprit, which is almost mission impossible, but that Alfa lambda sensor defeated me.
No it isn’t. Replacing the starter motor on a CF3 156 V6 is the worst thing in the world!Try replacing the thermostat bypass hose on an Austin Mini.
But the worst, by a country mile, is the rear manifold lambda sensor on an Alfa 156 V6.
I have replaced a petrol tank on an Esprit, which is almost mission impossible, but that Alfa lambda sensor defeated me.
The lambda is an absurd pain in the arse, but is possible with the front engine mounts removed and the engine rotated around the rear one. If it is stuck, you’ll need to take the rad out.
The starter motor - just give up and take the engine out.....then you can replace the lambda as well.
Try changing a sidelight/angel eye bulb in an e85/86 Z4.
BMW, in their infinite wisdom, decided to not only make it near impossible to access via their wheel-arch access panel - which normally requires the wheel completely off, not just on full lock as per their owner's manual (as the hinge for the headlight housing cover is behind the bodywork) - but have encased the simple W5W bulb in a custom housing and charge you £34 for it.
It turns out there was no need to really, as it could have easily have been designed as a 2-piece unit where you remove the top, put the bulb in and refit the top - well it was, but they decided to glue/melt the 2 parts together. If you break the seal/melted plastic the housing and the bulb holder will easily separate and you can upgrade to a nice white LED rather than the yellow incandescent they fitted originally.
BMW, in their infinite wisdom, decided to not only make it near impossible to access via their wheel-arch access panel - which normally requires the wheel completely off, not just on full lock as per their owner's manual (as the hinge for the headlight housing cover is behind the bodywork) - but have encased the simple W5W bulb in a custom housing and charge you £34 for it.
It turns out there was no need to really, as it could have easily have been designed as a 2-piece unit where you remove the top, put the bulb in and refit the top - well it was, but they decided to glue/melt the 2 parts together. If you break the seal/melted plastic the housing and the bulb holder will easily separate and you can upgrade to a nice white LED rather than the yellow incandescent they fitted originally.
cib24 said:
The answer is anything German from BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche.
The Japanese engineer well and think about servicing items. The Germans go really far on the engineering but don't consider practicalities such as replacing a light bulb.
Really? Like my mum's 2009 Yaris that needs the arch liner and bumper removing in order to remove the headlight and then change the headlight bulb?The Japanese engineer well and think about servicing items. The Germans go really far on the engineering but don't consider practicalities such as replacing a light bulb.
I think you're talking rubbish.
gnc said:
pain in the bum trying to line up studless wheels, thats why ive made 2 studs to screw in a few threads, then you can hang the wheel on them while yo get the others n;l
Some Pugs - 406 for a start - came with a special long stud with a knurled end so you could get it in with you fingers for just this purpose. I've an old one that I still keep handy now - works a treat for the OH's winter wheels which wont hang on the central boss of the hub like the normal fat wheels do.richs2891 said:
Headlight bulbs that can not be changed without removing the entire light or in some case the bumper
Or lights that require a special tool to remove them
Yeah, that's really annoying! This is one thing I loved about my MK2 Octavia - it was so easy to change bulbs. Unscrew a nut, pull a lever and the whole headlamp unit would pop out. Or lights that require a special tool to remove them
Love these threads, believe it or not the car companies do think about this stuff, design engineers aren't just doing it to wind you guys up.
Cost, regulation, cost, packaging for design, cost, cost cost. Pick any 3 reasons.
e.g. Porsche and the 996 headlight mechanism - a very expensive and convoluted piece of design, doesn't make sense for BMW to engineer that kind of thing into a 1-series.
Cost, regulation, cost, packaging for design, cost, cost cost. Pick any 3 reasons.
e.g. Porsche and the 996 headlight mechanism - a very expensive and convoluted piece of design, doesn't make sense for BMW to engineer that kind of thing into a 1-series.
The Oil filter on the Clio 197 is located on the front of the engine, below the top radiator hose and above the bottom one. Oh and bumper bar in front of it. So when it gets lovely and tight its near impossible to get off, both times i resorted to smashing a pry bar through it and rotating that way...
Blippy said:
BMW did this with the F20 1-Series. The pump filters eventually gum up, but it wasn't the end of the world as you could siphon it out the top and flush the system using some aquarium tube, boiling water and a bit of patience.
Guess what they did for the mid-life facelift? Exact same washer bottle but with a slightly different neck and a kink near the top that effectively stops you doing the easy DIY fix...
Bavarian b
ks.
Not if you use the BMW screenwash, as per handbook, and it is not expensive.Guess what they did for the mid-life facelift? Exact same washer bottle but with a slightly different neck and a kink near the top that effectively stops you doing the easy DIY fix...
Bavarian b
ks.I have no insider knowledge into the industry, but my guess is that many of these problems are a result of unitary construction.
My wife's Seat Ibiza had the same 1.6 diesel engine and gearbox as at least another half dozen VAG cars. It was impossible to remove the EGR cooler without either removing the turbo and manifold to get to it from above or one of the drive shafts to get to it from below. I reckon the entire engine/gearbox was assembled as a working unit and the body lowered on to it at manufacture.
My daughter's Hyundai Tucson was similar, no way to change the glow plugs without stripping our half of the other engine components first.
The engines and other components are no longer designed to fit one individual car, but instead are manufactured as swappable components and shoehorned into any vehicle that it makes economic sense to fit it to.
My wife's Seat Ibiza had the same 1.6 diesel engine and gearbox as at least another half dozen VAG cars. It was impossible to remove the EGR cooler without either removing the turbo and manifold to get to it from above or one of the drive shafts to get to it from below. I reckon the entire engine/gearbox was assembled as a working unit and the body lowered on to it at manufacture.
My daughter's Hyundai Tucson was similar, no way to change the glow plugs without stripping our half of the other engine components first.
The engines and other components are no longer designed to fit one individual car, but instead are manufactured as swappable components and shoehorned into any vehicle that it makes economic sense to fit it to.
67Dino said:
Porsche 996 battery access is a work of genius. If the battery goes flat you will find it under the front hood, the release for which is...er....battery powered.
The only way to get to the battery and start the car is to take the whole wheel arch lining out and filch around the headlights to find the fiddly manual hood release. Very funny, guys.
Or... connect a 12v source to the special pins in the fuse box so you can pop the bonnet from the switch as normal. Much cleaner. The only way to get to the battery and start the car is to take the whole wheel arch lining out and filch around the headlights to find the fiddly manual hood release. Very funny, guys.
Pica-Pica said:
Not if you use the BMW screenwash, as per handbook, and it is not expensive.
I've never* used BMW screenwash in 20 years/400,000 miles and have had no problems with pumps/jets clogging up (nor the reservoir filling with mould that I've seen on some) - but mine were always daily drivers, so the system was used regularly.* I've never personally used it, but I assume the dealer would when a car has been in for a service and it's been topped up
67Dino said:
Porsche 996 battery access is a work of genius. If the battery goes flat you will find it under the front hood, the release for which is...er....battery powered.
The only way to get to the battery and start the car is to take the whole wheel arch lining out and filch around the headlights to find the fiddly manual hood release. Very funny, guys.
So is the secret, to pull the bonnet latch whenever parking up in the garage after a drive then?The only way to get to the battery and start the car is to take the whole wheel arch lining out and filch around the headlights to find the fiddly manual hood release. Very funny, guys.
AmosMoses said:
The Oil filter on the Clio 197 is located on the front of the engine, below the top radiator hose and above the bottom one. Oh and bumper bar in front of it. So when it gets lovely and tight its near impossible to get off, both times i resorted to smashing a pry bar through it and rotating that way...
Not only that, but in common with other cars that have the filter mounted on one of the vertical faces of the engine, there's literally no way to avoid pissing half a filter capacity of oil down the front of the engine and onto the floor etc the instant you break the seal.alkaloid said:
Yeah, that's really annoying! This is one thing I loved about my MK2 Octavia - it was so easy to change bulbs. Unscrew a nut, pull a lever and the whole headlamp unit would pop out.
I found the same setup on my mk3 megane RS - 2 small bolts on the slam panel, pull a little bar thing out and the whole unit slides out.Nice one Renault, I see you've learned from the mk2 megane headlight farce!
Oh, except you can pull the headlight about 2 inches forward before it's constrained by the length of the wiring connected to it. And the retaining clip for the plug is on the opposite side to where you can get your fingers to easily.
Maybe you guys have nailed it on the mk4?
Manufacturers deliberately make it hard to repair as they don't want unauthorised people messing with their products as they lose an income stream and also have the potential for bodging which shouldn't (but still does) happen in the main dealerships, the amount of SST's for some cars is just crazy hence why I like Japanese over European cars as they seem to keep things more easily accessible to those without the special service tools.
donkmeister said:
Changing the rear bank of spark plugs on the Vectra C with the turbo V6 required removal of the intake manifold, disconnection of the ECU and finessing fuel lines out of the way. Considering that family of engines was designed for transverse applications, it seemed a pretty big oversight to put the spark plugs (a consumable item) there.
tbh it's fiddly but doesn't take that long, less than half an hour job to change the coilpacks and spark plugs if that on that V6 once you've done it a couple of times.untakenname said:
Manufacturers deliberately make it hard to repair as they don't want unauthorised people messing with their products as they lose an income stream and also have the potential for bodging which shouldn't (but still does) happen in the main dealerships, the amount of SST's for some cars is just crazy hence why I like Japanese over European cars as they seem to keep things more easily accessible to those without the special service tools.
I have never in 10 years designing for an OEM come across the concept of protecting revenue by making it impossible to service.As I stated further up the thread, we are juggling a s
t load of design requirements and servicing is just one of many, some parts get compromised more than others.M4cruiser said:
Having recently repaired a washer motor pump, it set me thinking. Why put the whole bottle in the front wheel arch - where it's a lot more difficult to get to it? You can't even easily test the electric connections without removing the wheel arch lining, and breaking some of the plastic clips in the process!
Do you have any more examples!
Another that springs to mind is the lack of a full-sized spare, just for convenience of the designer and CO2 reasons. Ludicrous.
I hear you on the washer motor. To get at mine (Land Rover Defender) I had to take off the headlight surround and the headlight, and go in through the little hole to get to the motor. Make me realise I was not cut out for gynaecology. Do you have any more examples!
Another that springs to mind is the lack of a full-sized spare, just for convenience of the designer and CO2 reasons. Ludicrous.
richs2891 said:
Headlight bulbs that can not be changed without removing the entire light or in some case the bumper
Was about to say exactly the same thing. Take the Megane II, a headlight bulb unless you have tiny hands is a bumper off job. Had it happen to my Trophy and luckily a friend who I met through the owners club was able to help. He thankfully knew every clip and screw to take off but not straight forward at all. Ludicrous for something simple.
I think anything that's a normal, DIY kind of fix should be made as easy as possible for the owner. Seems that doesn't occur with many car designers.
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