Stupid design / difficult repairs caused by "packaging"

[lyonspride]

The big problem with making a car that's hard to service/repair, is when it goes to a dealership the technicians will likely skip anything that requires a lot of work.
For example it was not uncommon to see 100k mile Peugeot 306's which had never had the spark plugs changed, because the engine was leaning backwards and the plugs were very hard to access.

On my Mondeo, the headlights have to be removed to change a bulb, this involves some bending of the front wing and grill trim to achieve (not actually very difficult once you figure it out).
Fords also seem to built built using single use plastic clips, meaning any repair you undertake will require a trip to a Ford dealer to buy said clips (copies also available online).

[FSEngineer]

Volvo V60 T8 - getting to the 12v battery is hilarious (!).

When the car has a software freakout and won't recognise any of the keys (for no apparent reason, at 2 months old... don't go there) the only way to get the thing mobile again is to disconnect the 12v battery for 30 seconds to force a hard reboot of the car's systems. Sounds simple, right?

The 12v battery is in a compartment at the side of the boot, presumably for packaging reasons. So far so normal. But the boot lid is electronic, with an electronic latch, and no manual override.

No problem, you think, just drop the rear seats and get to it from the inside of the car. But the cover for the battery hooks under the boot floor, which isn't meant to be lifted with the boot shut, and even if you manage to do so can't be removed - so you need 3 arms (one to hold yourself up, one to hold the boot floor halfway up, and one to try and bend the 12v battery cover into a shape where it'll come out around the edge of the boot floor).

What a massive design error, which could have easily been fixed with a manual override for the boot lid, or a battery cover that doesn't hook under the boot floor. Wouldn't touch another modern Volvo with a 12 foot long stty stick.

[Digby]

Cyder said:

untakenname said:

Manufacturers deliberately make it hard to repair as they don't want unauthorised people messing with their products as they lose an income stream and also have the potential for bodging which shouldn't (but still does) happen in the main dealerships, the amount of SST's for some cars is just crazy hence why I like Japanese over European cars as they seem to keep things more easily accessible to those without the special service tools.

I have never in 10 years designing for an OEM come across the concept of protecting revenue by making it impossible to service.
As I stated further up the thread, we are juggling a st load of design requirements and servicing is just one of many, some parts get compromised more than others.

But how can you explain the utter lunacy of people having to take a vehicle to a dealers to change a bulb, when their neighbour may own something which looks more or less the same and they can just remove a cover and replace?

There absolutely had to be a point where someone at that manufacturer said "Well this is a bit pants" but was told not to worry about it.

I think one of the French manufacturers once blamed safety rating requirements for it taking an age to change a bulb (numerous bits needed to be removed etc or you had to pay at main dealer) and yet VW had a higher safety rating and even with similar lamps and layout, you could change the bulb in 20 seconds.

Not being able to change a bulb quickly to me, would be no different to it taking 40 minutes to gain access to your washer bottle!

Edited by Digby on Monday 17th February 12:47

[njw1]

cib24 said:

The answer is anything German from BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche.

The Japanese engineer well and think about servicing items. The Germans go really far on the engineering but don't consider practicalities such as replacing a light bulb.

I've found the German stuff I've worked to be generally pretty straight forward, I could probably change all the headlight bulbs on my e39 in ten minutes. The only job that springs to mind as being a pain in the ass is removing the rear shocks on an e39 as the top mount nuts are under the rear speakers, so they obviously have to come out, and to get them out requires removal of the parcel shelf which requires removal of the rear seat and c pillar trims.

[njw1]

Eyersey1234 said:

My old Fiesta was a PIA to change the headlight bulb on, at least my Focus is a lot easier.

The headlights on a mk6 Fiesta can be removed in a few minutes with a flat head screwdriver.

[njw1]

Cold said:

A Winner Is You said:

ZX10R NIN said:

As others have said changing a headlight bulb is a joke.

We can design cars that drive themselves - you really wouldn't think it would be beyond the talents of car designers to make a headlight unit that could unclip.

You mean like a Mk1 Range Rover Sport? Two sliding clips and the whole unit can be removed.

The mk3 Mondeo is the same, two phillips screws and two clips to remove the grill and then two clips on each headlight. And talking of headlights I've just remembered the time it took me three hours to change the bulbs on an Alfa Guiletta, I got the old bulbs out by feel but there was no way I could get the new bulbs in without removing the headlights which meant the bumper had to come off and then all the little screws in the wheel arches were seized solid and rounded off...
Changing the oil on the same car was also a joy as the front offside arch liner has to come out to access the filter and the sump plug seemed to be made of cheese because as soon I put a spanner near it it rounded off which meant a trip to the garage to have a nut welded onto it.

[rich888]

Sheepshanks said:

stevensdrs said:

rich888 said:

Flat battery on the wife's VW Beetle, no problem I thought, just put the battery on charge overnight, except the charger was in the garage and she had parked the car too close to the garage door, so let's roll the car backwards, well nope because it's an auto and in PARK, and for some strange reason only known to VW, the lever can't be moved out of park unless the engine is running, but I can't start the damn thing because the battery is flat!!!

Most automatics have a manual release button which is usually hidden behind a trim insert near the gear selector.

Yep - on DSG, pull the surround off and there’s a button to release the interlock.

Thank you guys for the info, will look out for the removable surround. It's a 2006 model so getting on a bit, though does have a button on the side, but like I mentioned, only unlocks when the engine is running. Thing is, why did VW add this feature in the first place?

[rich888]

Dog Star said:

Really? Like my mum's 2009 Yaris that needs the arch liner and bumper removing in order to remove the headlight and then change the headlight bulb?

I think you're talking rubbish.

Yes it does make you wonder what the designers were thinking when they do silly things like this considering that the earlier Mk1 and Mk2 Yaris models seem to have been designed for easy maintenance.

What worries me about having to remove the wheel-arch liners and bumpers, etc. to reach these areas is that this is all well and good when the cars are brand new, but give it a few years of rain, snow, salt and corrosion and those nuts, bolts and screws might be a little harder to remove, and not at all funny if the headlight bulb has blown on a rainy night and all you want to do is change the damn thing!

[donkmeister]

rich888 said:

Thank you guys for the info, will look out for the removable surround. It's a 2006 model so getting on a bit, though does have a button on the side, but like I mentioned, only unlocks when the engine is running. Thing is, why did VW add this feature in the first place?

No, not the button on the selector - there will be a piece of trim in the centre console that you have to pry off... Usually the gear selector surround. Once you've done that, there will be a bit of metal you can either push with your finger or a screwdriver to release the shifter lock and put the transmission into neutral.
On every auto I've had it was explained in the owner's manual, perhaps it will say in yours. If not a Google is in order as it's worth knowing how to

Edited by donkmeister on Monday 17th February 14:23

[donkmeister]

untakenname said:

donkmeister said:

Changing the rear bank of spark plugs on the Vectra C with the turbo V6 required removal of the intake manifold, disconnection of the ECU and finessing fuel lines out of the way. Considering that family of engines was designed for transverse applications, it seemed a pretty big oversight to put the spark plugs (a consumable item) there.

tbh it's fiddly but doesn't take that long, less than half an hour job to change the coilpacks and spark plugs if that on that V6 once you've done it a couple of times.

That's kind of the point of the thread though... Yes, a Vauxhall mechanic who does three a day will develop the knack and the knowhow and if he doesn't finish the third then so what... but for a home-gamer holding a set of plugs, looking at his engine on a Sunday afternoon, knowing he needs to drive it to work on Monday morning, he's not going to be happy at the prospect of removing big chunks of engine until he can get his socket into the hole.

On the one occasion I got Vauxhall to do it they neglected to tighten up the clip on the boost pipe... This made it especially exciting when it came on boost as I was joining a busy A-road; the pipe popped off, engine went into limp mode, which meant having to pull onto the next (busy) roundabout in 6th (great design!) with reduced power... So even the thrice daily chap can't be expected to do it right

[smiley_boy2501]

Volvo V50 T5

Good - headlight slips out after 1 tent peg removed

Bad - battery disconnection requires removing the front strut brace. There's an easy access panel for the positive but not negative wires?!

- washer bottle lid is just above the left headlamp so you inevitably soak the connectors everytime and the Volvo loves to drink washer fluid (and fuel)

[rich888]

donkmeister said:

rich888 said:

Thank you guys for the info, will look out for the removable surround. It's a 2006 model so getting on a bit, though does have a button on the side, but like I mentioned, only unlocks when the engine is running. Thing is, why did VW add this feature in the first place?

No, not the button on the selector - there will be a piece of trim in the centre console that you have to pry off... Usually the gear selector surround. Once you've done that, there will be a bit of metal you can either push with your finger or a screwdriver to release the shifter lock and put the transmission into neutral.
On every auto I've had it was explained in the owner's manual, perhaps it will say in yours. If not a Google is in order as it's worth knowing how to

Edited by donkmeister on Monday 17th February 14:23

Thanks again, will read the manual later to see if it's mentioned. It's one of those things you don't even consider until the fateful day when the battery dies - in this case I didn't even know there was a hidden button to press! - I tend not to buy autos and all the ones I've owned in the past have never had this additional lock-out 'feature'.

[ShoooRn]

Certain OEM's will have rules in place for the design engineers to follow regarding serviceable items (this includes headlights).

We must remember that the majority of components are designed and tested to last longer than the vehicles warranty period. It is however a freak incident that causes the component to fail or bad quality of the part etc. etc.

One other thing that the OEM does is sets the servicing up for access from a lift - not for Billy working from the top of the bay and maybe using a jack to access some parts.

That said like the majority - I detest removing every little part just to access an oil filter or battery or common failing washer pump.

What I find funny though is the OEM's who acknowledge that maybe the washer pump or equivalent isn't quite so good and instead fit an access hatch in an arch liner or equivalent rather than tooling a new part

[lyonspride]

ShoooRn said:

Certain OEM's will have rules in place for the design engineers to follow regarding serviceable items (this includes headlights).

We must remember that the majority of components are designed and tested to last longer than the vehicles warranty period. It is however a freak incident that causes the component to fail or bad quality of the part etc. etc.

One other thing that the OEM does is sets the servicing up for access from a lift - not for Billy working from the top of the bay and maybe using a jack to access some parts.

That said like the majority - I detest removing every little part just to access an oil filter or battery or common failing washer pump.

What I find funny though is the OEM's who acknowledge that maybe the washer pump or equivalent isn't quite so good and instead fit an access hatch in an arch liner or equivalent rather than tooling a new part

That's not strictly true, it depends on the suppliers warranty....... In the mid 2000's a certain well known Japanese brand were giving customers a 5yr warranty, whilst their suppliers were giving them 7-8 years (on certain parts), what this resulted in was a sweet spot where the dealerships could charge both the customer AND the vehicle manufacturer (who them passed the cost to their supplier).
I find it hard to believe this doesn't still happen, the industry has been screwing it's suppliers like this for decades.

[Pica-Pica]

lyonspride said:

That's not strictly true, it depends on the suppliers warranty....... In the mid 2000's a certain well known Japanese brand were giving customers a 5yr warranty, whilst their suppliers were giving them 7-8 years (on certain parts), what this resulted in was a sweet spot where the dealerships could charge both the customer AND the vehicle manufacturer (who them passed the cost to their supplier).
I find it hard to believe this doesn't still happen, the industry has been screwing it's suppliers like this for decades.

The industry has ALWAYS screwed their suppliers. I remember a French supplier coming into our design office and saying to me “soon you will be asking for me to bring the parts AND give you money as well”.

[Jim the Sunderer]

The Jaguar XF MK1 pre-facelift model requires the headlamp removing to change a bulb.

To remove the unit I had to remove two bolts under the bonnet and one in the wheel arch.


Thanks Ian.

[Limpet]

Otispunkmeyer said:

We have a Renault scenic at work... The battery is under a load of plastic and tubing for the air intake. The air box itself is then buried completely under the windscreen. Like basically under the top of the dash. So air filter change requires removing a load of plastic, ducting and the battery to even access the air box. Horrible car.

On every other car I've worked on, air box is front and centre. Couple of clips or screws and the filter is done < 2 mins. Not for the French tho.

Coincidentally our old one (mk2 Grand Scenic) was the car that immediately sprang to mind when I saw the thread title.

Whereas some cars strike you as having been designed without consideration given to maintenance, the Scenic II was so horrible to do even the simplest jobs on that I cannot believe it wasn't deliberately designed that way. No manufacturer gets something that wrong through chance or thoughtlessness. I hated working on it, but more tellingly so did the professional mechanics I entrusted with various jobs. They all remarked how appallingly, almost spitefully designed these cars are from a maintenance perspective.

Not helped either by the number of designed-in faults, and shoddy quality which see to it that it will be coming apart frequently.

Our old one was last MOT'd at 7 years old with 80,000 miles on it.

I haven't had another Renault since this, and I would still struggle to own one now. Utter, utter crap.

[RazerSauber]

Someone mentioned the Vectra V6 spark plugs and this seems to be a follow on from the V6 Calibra who required the inlet manifold to be removed. Admittedly, this is a fairly simple manifold to remove but still takes a lot of faffing. Invariably, the rocker cover gaskets will leak so you pop the manifold off, new gasket, bolt it back down, set off and find it still leaks because you've got crap plastic rocker covers that have warped and you need new ones. Or the metal ones fitted to the same engine on the Vectra B..

Nomination to the R50 for requiring a full front end strip down to change a bloody clutch and for having a twin pipe plastic connector that's got lovely access from the top just under the battery tray that's a doddle to remove, then they put 2 f*****g hose clamps facing the floor. Can you get to them? Can you fairy cakes. That rubber bird from The Incredibles couldn't reach them from the floor. Yes, it's connected to twist-able rubber hoses so you can just turn it upside down. Only problem with that is that they're linked together by a little bit of plastic that's the usual cause of the leak so you try and twist it round and *pop* it's now in 2 bits chucking coolant all over the floor. Could've been easily resolved putting it up a few inches higher or putting the stupid spring clips pointing upwards. Oh, and having plastic bleed screws that need a huge screwdriver to undo or round out in the middle, rather than adding 10p to the cost of each car and installing metal ones.

[jamesson]

Mixed bag on my cars. BMW E36 six cylinder oil filter in a metal housing front and centre upon lifting the bonnet. An absolute doddle to replace and the air filter takes about twenty seconds from start to finish.

Cabin filter, on the other hand, means removal of the entire windsreen wiper mechanism and scuttle.

Audi A3 sidelights require fingers the size of a small child. I took it to Halfords in the end as it was freezing cold and I needed some bits and bobs anyway. Even the fitter there said it wasn't the easiest to replace.

Kia Picanto. Oil filter, air filter, easy peasy. Spark plugs are angled towards the windscreen (why?!), there's little space because of the windscreen and are a pain to get out.

Land Rover 90 air filter requires removal of various bits and is a tight fit. The oil filter is vertical and as others have said means spilling a quantity of oil when it's unscrewed. I remember seeing a Toyota oil filter in a similar location but with much tighter access.

All the difficult items on various makes and models of cars annoys me. It just doesn't have to be like that.

[Fastdruid]

The Mondeo Mk4 cabin/pollen filter. It's an absolute pig that needs the fusebox/BCM (re)moving and is suggested to remove the glove box to aid access. this is an annual service item as well.

In comparison, the Mazda 6 one takes no tools and takes about 5 minutes...of which 4 is emptying the glove box of crap first.