RE: 462hp Touareg is VW R's first hybrid
Discussion
W12AAM said:
...
But at a price of?..."Nearly £100,000?!" for this VW, I'll stick with my 10 yr old L322 Range Rover TDV8 which manages around mid-30's MPG, on a long run...and if you look at the price of diesel, lately (£125.9), along with the "unknown" of whether to invest in a new Hybrid?, Or a full electric...Or just leave it to what youve already got?... Keeping my 2nd hand Range Rover wins!
Only if the Governmnet bans diesels or petrols altogether (overnight) OR whack up the price of road tax or fuel, will i have to change....
Can’t imagine the pricing department’s strategy will payoff despite it being in the ‘trendy,’ overlap of the Venn diagram. Why would anyone buy a VW for this much!?! Would never think enough badge snobbery exists for a lowly people’s carBut at a price of?..."Nearly £100,000?!" for this VW, I'll stick with my 10 yr old L322 Range Rover TDV8 which manages around mid-30's MPG, on a long run...and if you look at the price of diesel, lately (£125.9), along with the "unknown" of whether to invest in a new Hybrid?, Or a full electric...Or just leave it to what youve already got?... Keeping my 2nd hand Range Rover wins!
Only if the Governmnet bans diesels or petrols altogether (overnight) OR whack up the price of road tax or fuel, will i have to change....
Shakermaker said:
But because pedantry matters, that isn't a VW R Division car.
R is a badge, same as GTI or Highline or Anniversary or Limited. It’s a VW regardless of how you badge it in the same way that S line is just another badge on an Audi or Msport is just another badge on a bmw. So we agree that the car in the Article is NOT the first VW hybrid and that ‘R’ is a trim level, NOT an independent manufacturer.
Seams the Tiguan is the forgotten SUV.
Since the MK2 Tiguan came out, I always hoped VW would give it the Golf R engine. They've now done that with the T-Roc. Meaning the smaller car, is the faster car. And now this Touareg has got the go faster treatment.
Missed opportunity in my eyes, especially as Audi are confident the RS-Q3 will sell in enough numbers to make it viable.
Since the MK2 Tiguan came out, I always hoped VW would give it the Golf R engine. They've now done that with the T-Roc. Meaning the smaller car, is the faster car. And now this Touareg has got the go faster treatment.
Missed opportunity in my eyes, especially as Audi are confident the RS-Q3 will sell in enough numbers to make it viable.
nunpuncher said:
I just don't get the point of performance SUVs. It's such an unnecessary and rather pointless jack of all trades car type in the first place. They make even less sense when you try to make them green.
Depends on the performance characteristics.SUVs first and foremost need low down grunt. There should never be any hint of effort at normal wafting pace.
This can either be achieved with a good diesel, or a stonking great petrol V8. The Touareg/Q7 TDIs are lovely. The Cayenne V8s and Turbos are lovely.
Where SUVs do not work is with mid-range performance petrol models. I really can't get on with the current crop of 2.9/3.0 petrol turbos. They're silly fast at 6000 RPM, but who on earth wants to drive an SUV like they stole it? It's just pointless. And at normal RPMs where they should live, they're up and down the gearbox like crazy, trying to compensate for a lack of grunt. That sort of performance is lovely in a sporty saloon, but in an SUV it's just wrong.
However, add in some torque fill from electric motors for low down daily wafting, and you no longer have to fill up from the black pump, or suffer 15mpg from the V8 turbos, and that really does appeal to me. I think this might just be the SUV sweet spot.
Fishlegs said:
Depends on the performance characteristics.
SUVs first and foremost need low down grunt. There should never be any hint of effort at normal wafting pace.
This can either be achieved with a good diesel, or a stonking great petrol V8. The Touareg/Q7 TDIs are lovely. The Cayenne V8s and Turbos are lovely.
Where SUVs do not work is with mid-range performance petrol models. I really can't get on with the current crop of 2.9/3.0 petrol turbos. They're silly fast at 6000 RPM, but who on earth wants to drive an SUV like they stole it? It's just pointless. And at normal RPMs where they should live, they're up and down the gearbox like crazy, trying to compensate for a lack of grunt. That sort of performance is lovely in a sporty saloon, but in an SUV it's just wrong.
However, add in some torque fill from electric motors for low down daily wafting, and you no longer have to fill up from the black pump, or suffer 15mpg from the V8 turbos, and that really does appeal to me. I think this might just be the SUV sweet spot.
Makes sense for towing. But I doubt many will buy these or the Audi/Porsche equivalents for towing. If you just want to effortlessly waft then surely the drivetrain would still make more sense in a more aerodynamic, slightly lighter and therefor more efficient saloon or estate (even call it a touring or a shooting brake if the word "estate" is too uncool).SUVs first and foremost need low down grunt. There should never be any hint of effort at normal wafting pace.
This can either be achieved with a good diesel, or a stonking great petrol V8. The Touareg/Q7 TDIs are lovely. The Cayenne V8s and Turbos are lovely.
Where SUVs do not work is with mid-range performance petrol models. I really can't get on with the current crop of 2.9/3.0 petrol turbos. They're silly fast at 6000 RPM, but who on earth wants to drive an SUV like they stole it? It's just pointless. And at normal RPMs where they should live, they're up and down the gearbox like crazy, trying to compensate for a lack of grunt. That sort of performance is lovely in a sporty saloon, but in an SUV it's just wrong.
However, add in some torque fill from electric motors for low down daily wafting, and you no longer have to fill up from the black pump, or suffer 15mpg from the V8 turbos, and that really does appeal to me. I think this might just be the SUV sweet spot.
Valid point though and it makes me wonder how quickly the electricity runs out when filling in the "grunt" gap to tow say a small boat/track car etc. Range generally drops off a cliff when the conditions aren't ideal.
I don't think the argument of "just get an estate instead" really works. I used to, but not any more.
I think anyone who thinks like that already bought an estate and didn't even consider the SUV in the first place (as I did for many years). But we know SUVs are popular from the sales figures, regardless of the existence of better value/weight/CoG/peformance/bootspace estate cars. Many people still choose SUVs.
I feel like anyone who has had an SUV and liked it is unlikely to go back to an estate (this is me now), and so the development of better SUVs is a good thing.
I think anyone who thinks like that already bought an estate and didn't even consider the SUV in the first place (as I did for many years). But we know SUVs are popular from the sales figures, regardless of the existence of better value/weight/CoG/peformance/bootspace estate cars. Many people still choose SUVs.
I feel like anyone who has had an SUV and liked it is unlikely to go back to an estate (this is me now), and so the development of better SUVs is a good thing.
Olas said:
Shakermaker said:
But because pedantry matters, that isn't a VW R Division car.
R is a badge, same as GTI or Highline or Anniversary or Limited. It’s a VW regardless of how you badge it in the same way that S line is just another badge on an Audi or Msport is just another badge on a bmw. So we agree that the car in the Article is NOT the first VW hybrid and that ‘R’ is a trim level, NOT an independent manufacturer.
Maybe a read of this will help you understand where you are going wrong.
article said:
462hp Touareg is VW R's first hybrid
Edited by gigglebug on Tuesday 25th February 17:19
ogrodz said:
I don't think that completely switching all cars to electric is the way to go. There are many many reasons why this will not work within the 15 year horizon that the government has stupidly set (switching millions of households to 3-phase electric supply to solve the quick charge problem for example) - extensively discussed in a recent thread here.
Rather, why not establish a new and stretching set of emission parameters for 15 years hence - including 2.5nm particulate levels - and incentivise manufacturers to innovate new ways to achieve those targets - e.g new particulate filters and gas scrubbers for existing combustion engines? This would allow a progressive development of existing technologies - much more achievable in my view.
Hybrids are an example of progressive development - but I would be very interested to see how far diesel technology could actually go if you really tried. In my company we have run 5 series BMW's (520ed) for many years. They are incredibly efficient (60+mpg) and of course no issues with range. My sales and marketing director is switching to a Peugeot electric vehicle this April. The stated range is around 230miles - so I have had to create a new company car policy that defines where we will compensate train use, overnight stays, use of own car or hire car (combustion engine) etc etc... With the current company car BIK tax policy strongly weighted against combustion engine (and hybrid) technologies, how can an employer reasonably deny an employee an electric vehicle if it saves the employee so much tax?
+1Rather, why not establish a new and stretching set of emission parameters for 15 years hence - including 2.5nm particulate levels - and incentivise manufacturers to innovate new ways to achieve those targets - e.g new particulate filters and gas scrubbers for existing combustion engines? This would allow a progressive development of existing technologies - much more achievable in my view.
Hybrids are an example of progressive development - but I would be very interested to see how far diesel technology could actually go if you really tried. In my company we have run 5 series BMW's (520ed) for many years. They are incredibly efficient (60+mpg) and of course no issues with range. My sales and marketing director is switching to a Peugeot electric vehicle this April. The stated range is around 230miles - so I have had to create a new company car policy that defines where we will compensate train use, overnight stays, use of own car or hire car (combustion engine) etc etc... With the current company car BIK tax policy strongly weighted against combustion engine (and hybrid) technologies, how can an employer reasonably deny an employee an electric vehicle if it saves the employee so much tax?
A thoughtful response to an almost maniacal government edict.
In many countries, households and businesses will be unable to purchase anything but the most spartan BEV -- a vehicle of limited use. People will be forced in ever-greater numbers into the sharing economy. Although sharing can be good, it, too, comes with limitations. The knock-on effect to macroeconomics could be damaging.
Meanwhile, hybrid powertrains can, to some extent, allow us to have our cake and eat it.
Watch what China, Japan and the US may do. For example:
"I believe hybrid vehicles will play a critical role. The objective is not electrification, per se, but improving fuel efficiency. And we believe hybrid vehicles are the way to abide by different environmental regulations."
https://electrek.co/2019/12/26/honda-ceo-says-no-d...
nunpuncher said:
Makes sense for towing. But I doubt many will buy these or the Audi/Porsche equivalents for towing. If you just want to effortlessly waft then surely the drivetrain would still make more sense in a more aerodynamic, slightly lighter and therefor more efficient saloon or estate (even call it a touring or a shooting brake if the word "estate" is too uncool).
I bought a performance SUV and towing was one of its primary requirements; it does wafting very well, carries 7, does acceptable mpg, huge load capacity etc.I test drove an RS6 Avant today. It's huge, and heavy and the boot space is much smaller and less usable than my SQ7 because of the rear windscreen rake. It's not an option for me, doesn't tick the boxes. Which doesn't it's not the right car for someone else, but an estate is absolutely not an equivalent option.
PhilboSE said:
nunpuncher said:
Makes sense for towing. But I doubt many will buy these or the Audi/Porsche equivalents for towing. If you just want to effortlessly waft then surely the drivetrain would still make more sense in a more aerodynamic, slightly lighter and therefor more efficient saloon or estate (even call it a touring or a shooting brake if the word "estate" is too uncool).
I bought a performance SUV and towing was one of its primary requirements; it does wafting very well, carries 7, does acceptable mpg, huge load capacity etc.I test drove an RS6 Avant today. It's huge, and heavy and the boot space is much smaller and less usable than my SQ7 because of the rear windscreen rake. It's not an option for me, doesn't tick the boxes. Which doesn't it's not the right car for someone else, but an estate is absolutely not an equivalent option.
Nowadays you see plenty of SUVs towing track cars on the paddock of most track days. Probably 50% of cars being towed actually. Which would confirm that even drivers who care about driving dynamics, at least on track where it is crucial, accept that for road use, it doesn't matter too much if you have a sub optimal CoG.
W12AAM said:
, along with the "unknown" of whether to invest in a new Hybrid?, Or a full electric...
its not unknown, hybrids are 'compliance cars' they meet C02 avgs on tests but generally are crappy in the real world (see Harry's latest vid on the X5), they keep the car industries many billions of investments in drivetrain plants running and they keep the service departments full being even more complicated than fossil cars.they burn fossil fuel so will be banned along with normal fossil cars as far as the politicians are concerned
Wills2 said:
The X5 45e makes more sense with the bigger battery and near 50 mile EV only range.
.
Agreed it looks like a sweet spot for me as well, its really usable and genuinely benficial (if you can plug it in overnight) and bloody clever. .
Harry's garage has a good review of it pros and cons well laid out.
nickfrog said:
PhilboSE said:
nunpuncher said:
Makes sense for towing. But I doubt many will buy these or the Audi/Porsche equivalents for towing. If you just want to effortlessly waft then surely the drivetrain would still make more sense in a more aerodynamic, slightly lighter and therefor more efficient saloon or estate (even call it a touring or a shooting brake if the word "estate" is too uncool).
I bought a performance SUV and towing was one of its primary requirements; it does wafting very well, carries 7, does acceptable mpg, huge load capacity etc.I test drove an RS6 Avant today. It's huge, and heavy and the boot space is much smaller and less usable than my SQ7 because of the rear windscreen rake. It's not an option for me, doesn't tick the boxes. Which doesn't it's not the right car for someone else, but an estate is absolutely not an equivalent option.
Nowadays you see plenty of SUVs towing track cars on the paddock of most track days. Probably 50% of cars being towed actually. Which would confirm that even drivers who care about driving dynamics, at least on track where it is crucial, accept that for road use, it doesn't matter too much if you have a sub optimal CoG.
At least 70% of the people I race with tow using an SUV, a fast estate is all well and good but if you've just done 6 hours thashing a car on track (which is the right place to do it) why on earth would you want to then get in an rs6?
W12AAM said:
i kind of get the electric mode needed for cities, if thats the way the world is going (City of York...and Brighton to follow).
But at a price of?..."Nearly £100,000?!" for this VW, I'll stick with my 10 yr old L322 Range Rover TDV8 which manages around mid-30's MPG, on a long run...and if you look at the price of diesel, lately (£125.9), along with the "unknown" of whether to invest in a new Hybrid?, Or a full electric...Or just leave it to what youve already got?... Keeping my 2nd hand Range Rover wins!
Only if the Governmnet bans diesels or petrols altogether (overnight) OR whack up the price of road tax or fuel, will i have to change....but by the time it would be about to be implented, that government will be kicked out as that not what the majority of the public will want and will vote against it.
Driver of 10 year old smoker prefers 10yr old smoker to brand new car for reasons of cost...? What a shocker.....But at a price of?..."Nearly £100,000?!" for this VW, I'll stick with my 10 yr old L322 Range Rover TDV8 which manages around mid-30's MPG, on a long run...and if you look at the price of diesel, lately (£125.9), along with the "unknown" of whether to invest in a new Hybrid?, Or a full electric...Or just leave it to what youve already got?... Keeping my 2nd hand Range Rover wins!
Only if the Governmnet bans diesels or petrols altogether (overnight) OR whack up the price of road tax or fuel, will i have to change....but by the time it would be about to be implented, that government will be kicked out as that not what the majority of the public will want and will vote against it.
LateStarter said:
nickfrog said:
PhilboSE said:
nunpuncher said:
Makes sense for towing. But I doubt many will buy these or the Audi/Porsche equivalents for towing. If you just want to effortlessly waft then surely the drivetrain would still make more sense in a more aerodynamic, slightly lighter and therefor more efficient saloon or estate (even call it a touring or a shooting brake if the word "estate" is too uncool).
I bought a performance SUV and towing was one of its primary requirements; it does wafting very well, carries 7, does acceptable mpg, huge load capacity etc.I test drove an RS6 Avant today. It's huge, and heavy and the boot space is much smaller and less usable than my SQ7 because of the rear windscreen rake. It's not an option for me, doesn't tick the boxes. Which doesn't it's not the right car for someone else, but an estate is absolutely not an equivalent option.
Nowadays you see plenty of SUVs towing track cars on the paddock of most track days. Probably 50% of cars being towed actually. Which would confirm that even drivers who care about driving dynamics, at least on track where it is crucial, accept that for road use, it doesn't matter too much if you have a sub optimal CoG.
At least 70% of the people I race with tow using an SUV, a fast estate is all well and good but if you've just done 6 hours thashing a car on track (which is the right place to do it) why on earth would you want to then get in an rs6?
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