RE: Audi RS6 vs. AMG E63 S | Time for Tea

[Parkin46]

jago-fq3vy said:

Audi should learn to up their game, whilst it’s an astonishingly capable car on the road, there is no fun factor on a track and whilst I know it spends a very small percentage of its time there, as an owner, it’s nice to have the option. My previous RS6 understeered the whole way round Silverstone, it was utterly pointless, cost me a fortune in brakes and petrol and achieved nothing, At least with the Merc it looks like you have an option to change line and have a bit of fun (this probably applies to the road too). Whilst the Audi looks a better car I’d be buying the Merc. No point in having a fit wife if she doesn’t put out...

Enlightened view on women.....

[Tomatogti]

So the older, more fun merc was still faster. Looked like fun. Audi looked like the driver was just praying the understeer wasn’t so bad he’d run wide. Audi looks better but I’d have the Merc.

[numtumfutunch]

sasha320 said:

This is a good point. However I’m wondering just how much compromise there is in load carrying capacity (shape or volume) of the saloon given the curved ‘wingback’ nature of the latest crop of estate design.

The lion’s share of the practical load carrying capacity of my C7 estate is the depth and height available up to the window line. The space in the box above is useful but doesn’t account for yhat much.

I’m not sure if there’s only a ski hatch in the M5, non-folding seats makes a difference as well.

Dull and pragmatic post alert!

Have recently looked at and dismissed a a cooking A6 estate/avant as family shed as it is even more compromised wrt load carrying capacity than my current Volvo V90 which itself suffers from a fashionably rakish rear profile

Cheers

[NGK210]

Seems that many are determined to not let the facts get in the way of prejudice and bias, so let’s clarify the tyre specs outlined in the vid:
RS6’s tyre: Hankook Ventus S1 Evo3.
E63 S’s tyre: Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S.
Of course the E63 is quicker and has less understeer - it’s on better tyres

[sasha320]

numtumfutunch said:

Dull and pragmatic post alert!

Have recently looked at and dismissed a a cooking A6 estate/avant as family shed as it is even more compromised wrt load carrying capacity than my current Volvo V90 which itself suffers from a fashionably rakish rear profile

Cheers

So, do you reckon, in real terms, that an M5 saloon has a similar load carrying capacity ro an A6 estate?

[C.MW]

Audi has been very keen on engineering understeer into every car they sell for all these years. The other king of understeer, Subaru, at least designs their STI in such a way that it can at least be forced into rotation. I've never seen an Audi RS model that could let its back end out just a bit through corners to help rotate, forced or not.

[Arsecati]

sasha320 said:

This is a good point. However I’m wondering just how much compromise there is in load carrying capacity (shape or volume) of the saloon given the curved ‘wingback’ nature of the latest crop of estate design.

The lion’s share of the practical load carrying capacity of my C7 estate is the depth and height available up to the window line. The space in the box above is useful but doesn’t account for yhat much.

I’m not sure if there’s only a ski hatch in the M5, non-folding seats makes a difference as well.

I can fit my kayak (whitewater - touring one still has to go on roof!) INSIDE my Avant. 2 bikes no problem, bins can be carried upright in the boot (saves having to take bags out and risking leakage!), 2 GSD cross dogs get extra height from folded down seats to stick heads out window, and then have acres of space to lie down when they get bored (on longer journeys).

So in answer to your question: there is a COLOSSAL amount of compromise picking the saloon over the estate/avant if your life involves hauling dogs and ste everywhere - the curvature of the rear screen isn't THAT bad, as there is actually a really massive gap between the glass and opening, which is hugely deceptive to look at, but greatly increases available space.

Well, that's my experience anyway - I could never buy a saloon version of anything, if an estate version of the same car exists.

[Blue62]

llcoolmac said:

The B7 RS4 was a bit of an anomaly alright but people still don't seem to hold them in the same reverence as the C63 and M3 of the same era.

Just how do you measure ‘reverence?’

[Baldchap]

Problem is, you hand a car to a journo for ten minutes and they'll tell you all about going sideways and lap times, both utterly irrelevant to most of us for a vehicle like this.

I guarantee, when joining a busy road via right angle slip road in cold and sleet with the kids in the back (as I did last night in the RS4) there's not one person would prefer the Merc. Same for driving to Spain (which I did in an RS5 in summer). These aren't track cars, they're absolutely excellent every day with kids and dogs cars. But that takes more than going sideways for three minutes to discover.

[Onehp]

NGK210 said:

Seems that many are determined to not let the facts get in the way of prejudice and bias, so let’s clarify the tyre specs outlined in the vid:
RS6’s tyre: Hankook Ventus S1 Evo3.
E63 S’s tyre: Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S.
Of course the E63 is quicker and has less understeer - it’s on better tyres

Which is perhaps even more mind-boggling, super expensive ceramics, carbon bits, wide arches... But proper tyres no can do. Fits right into my prejudices of folks spending on big fancy rims and then when they see tyre prices, put on cheap rubber...

[sasha320]

Baldchap said:

Problem is, you hand a car to a journo for ten minutes and they'll tell you all about going sideways and lap times, both utterly irrelevant to most of us for a vehicle like this.

I guarantee, when joining a busy road via right angle slip road in cold and sleet with the kids in the back (as I did last night in the RS4) there's not one person would prefer the Merc. Same for driving to Spain (which I did in an RS5 in summer). These aren't track cars, they're absolutely excellent every day with kids and dogs cars. But that takes more than going sideways for three minutes to discover.

I agree with your point that that these cars are not really for the track. However (and I’m not trying to be argumentative), but why wouldn’t someone want to be in the E63S when joining a busy road in the cold with sleet?

The E63S has plenty of power to be able to speed match the flowing traffic, 4 wheel drive and as much or as little space as other estates for the kids and all the other stuff that comes with them.

Arguably the ride would be more pleasant in the Merc than an RS Audi on a long motorway road trip too?

[sasha320]

Onehp said:

NGK210 said:

Seems that many are determined to not let the facts get in the way of prejudice and bias, so let’s clarify the tyre specs outlined in the vid:
RS6’s tyre: Hankook Ventus S1 Evo3.
E63 S’s tyre: Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S.
Of course the E63 is quicker and has less understeer - it’s on better tyres

Which is perhaps even more mind-boggling, super expensive ceramics, carbon bits, wide arches... But proper tyres no can do. Fits right into my prejudices of folks spending on big fancy rims and then when they see tyre prices, put on cheap rubber...

The Michelins are superior for sure, but the Hankooks don’t trail that far behind the Michelins in the Autobild tyre tests

https://alltyretests.com/hankook-ventus-s1-evo3-k1...

Maybe the margins between the two brands of tyres are amplified on the track? If not, they may well have been on a similar performing tyre.

I am going to examine my prejudices regarding the Hankook brand and see whether these Hankook tyres are in fact a clever choice...

[big_rob_sydney]

Like watching a sumo in a pink tutu tip toe across an ice covered lake.

Why on earth would you take a 2 tonne barge onto a race track. "Because you can". There are plenty of things in life one "could" do; doesn't mean they're sensible. More fish trying to fly, I see then.

[cayman-black]

carwow, showed up all the hype regarding this RS6.

[Baldchap]

sasha320 said:

Baldchap said:

Problem is, you hand a car to a journo for ten minutes and they'll tell you all about going sideways and lap times, both utterly irrelevant to most of us for a vehicle like this.

I guarantee, when joining a busy road via right angle slip road in cold and sleet with the kids in the back (as I did last night in the RS4) there's not one person would prefer the Merc. Same for driving to Spain (which I did in an RS5 in summer). These aren't track cars, they're absolutely excellent every day with kids and dogs cars. But that takes more than going sideways for three minutes to discover.

I agree with your point that that these cars are not really for the track. However (and I’m not trying to be argumentative), but why wouldn’t someone want to be in the E63S when joining a busy road in the cold with sleet?

The E63S has plenty of power to be able to speed match the flowing traffic, 4 wheel drive and as much or as little space as other estates for the kids and all the other stuff that comes with them.

Arguably the ride would be more pleasant in the Merc than an RS Audi on a long motorway road trip too?

Have to be honest, I'd assumed the Merc was RWD. My bad.

[Onehp]

sasha320 said:

The Michelins are superior for sure, but the Hankooks don’t trail that far behind the Michelins in the Autobild tyre tests

https://alltyretests.com/hankook-ventus-s1-evo3-k1...

Maybe the margins between the two brands of tyres are amplified on the track? If not, they may well have been on a similar performing tyre.

I am going to examine my prejudices regarding the Hankook brand and see whether these Hankook tyres are in fact a clever choice...

They are fine tyres and a smart choice for many uses. But on an RS product I would still expect the very best tyres, not just a good performing sport tyre that gets fitted on many a 2.0 tdi s-line... Neither are the most relevant choice on track obviously.

[Onehp]

Baldchap said:

sasha320 said:

Baldchap said:

Problem is, you hand a car to a journo for ten minutes and they'll tell you all about going sideways and lap times, both utterly irrelevant to most of us for a vehicle like this.

I guarantee, when joining a busy road via right angle slip road in cold and sleet with the kids in the back (as I did last night in the RS4) there's not one person would prefer the Merc. Same for driving to Spain (which I did in an RS5 in summer). These aren't track cars, they're absolutely excellent every day with kids and dogs cars. But that takes more than going sideways for three minutes to discover.

I agree with your point that that these cars are not really for the track. However (and I’m not trying to be argumentative), but why wouldn’t someone want to be in the E63S when joining a busy road in the cold with sleet?

The E63S has plenty of power to be able to speed match the flowing traffic, 4 wheel drive and as much or as little space as other estates for the kids and all the other stuff that comes with them.

Arguably the ride would be more pleasant in the Merc than an RS Audi on a long motorway road trip too?

Have to be honest, I'd assumed the Merc was RWD. My bad.

That's a relief, thought you were arguing all road cars must suffer from chronic understeer in large amounts

[NGK210]

sasha320 said:

Onehp said:

NGK210 said:

Seems that many are determined to not let the facts get in the way of prejudice and bias, so let’s clarify the tyre specs outlined in the vid:
RS6’s tyre: Hankook Ventus S1 Evo3.
E63 S’s tyre: Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S.
Of course the E63 is quicker and has less understeer - it’s on better tyres

Which is perhaps even more mind-boggling, super expensive ceramics, carbon bits, wide arches... But proper tyres no can do. Fits right into my prejudices of folks spending on big fancy rims and then when they see tyre prices, put on cheap rubber...

The Michelins are superior for sure, but the Hankooks don’t trail that far behind the Michelins in the Autobild tyre tests

https://alltyretests.com/hankook-ventus-s1-evo3-k1...

Maybe the margins between the two brands of tyres are amplified on the track? If not, they may well have been on a similar performing tyre.

I am going to examine my prejudices regarding the Hankook brand and see whether these Hankook tyres are in fact a clever choice...

Thank you for emphasising my point further...
You’re correct, the Ventus S1 Evo3 compares well(ish) with the PS4.
But the E63 in the vid is NOT on the PS4, it’s on the PS4 S.
Compared to the vanilla PS4, the S-version is 1-second per lap quicker around a c. 1:17 circuit - E63 was 0.6sec quicker around a c. 1:57 circuit than RS6 - and more suited to track work, as this Tyre Reviews vid proves:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aMv64liOqIE

[T1berious]

Onehp said:

Which is perhaps even more mind-boggling, super expensive ceramics, carbon bits, wide arches... But proper tyres no can do. Fits right into my prejudices of folks spending on big fancy rims and then when they see tyre prices, put on cheap rubber...

I always thought that tyres were the most important thing on a performance motor? No point having xyz bhp and no way of getting on the road? My kingdom for Michelin Alpins.....

[anonymous-user]

PH Article said said:

....of course no owner will ever do it

Not entirely true