RE: Order books open for all-new Defender 90

[jagfan2]

Max_Torque said:

ash73 said:

jeremy996 said:

Grenadier sent me an update - if i can afford it, this may be my next new vehicle; everything the blingy Defender 90/110 isn't.

http://view.grenadier.ineos.com/?qs=4ce966d3f80b6f...

Strange website, there aren't any pictures of it... Or is it such a tough 4x4 nobody cares what it looks like, they just want to see ladder chassis porn.

click through and see how many glaring engineering gaffs you can spot, such as:



"Beam axles provide improved ride comfort"

er no, ride comfort is primarily driven by the ratio of sprung to unsprung mass, so for any given vehicle mass, independant suspension provides a better ride (which is why pretty much all modern passenger vehicles have had independant suspension for the last 20 or so years)


"Box section ladder chassis for maximum stiffness"

er, nope, stiffness is created by carrying loads in the plane they act, not orthagonally. Try this is a piece of paper, pull it length ways, then bend it long ways, see what i mean. This is why all modern passenger vehicles use a unibody construction to allow loads to be carried with the highest stiffness but th e lowest mass. A simple beam in pure bending, rather than triangulated will have to be far heavier and thicker stiffness to create the same stiffness as a unibody.


"Box section chassis for maximum towing capacity"

Why does the chassis affect the towing mass? GTW is set by things like gradeability, brake performance and gear ratio's, and not by chassis strength. As long as the trailer loads are correctly spread into the structure, this has zero impact on GTW.


And my favourite beam axle untruth, the classic for people who don't understand what they are talking about:

"TRACTION YOU CAN TRUST, When one end or side goes up, the opposite pushes into the ground for greater grip"

The only thing that matters in a cross axle situation is the total roll stiffness across that axle. And that can be tuned for ANY suspension geometry. We can make a beam axle so stiff it has zero cross axle articulation, and an independant system so soft the body actually falls over when parked. This is nothing to do with "the other side pushing down"...

But the big reason you don't want live axles these days, is actually because you want a steering rack, and not a steering box.......

Given that is Grenadier isn't going to be cheap (a low volume, heavily engineered niche vehicle) who exactly is the target audience? Sure, lots of beardy off-roaders would love one, but they are knocking around in £3k Disco1's, and haven't got £50k to drop on a toy. Zero dealer or market backup means the utilities ain't going to go anywhere near an expesnive white elephant. The Army (sensibly) isn't interested in soft skinned vehicles any more, so other that a couple of rich Londonites, who is going to buy this vehicle?? (especially when you can just buy a toyota that does everything this Grenadier does already???)

Spot on on all of the above - especially who is going to buy them, given the original defender maxed out at 20-25k sold a year inc army/utilities/aid etc. There is the Middle and and asian market that buy the land cruisers, and US that buy Jeeps, but again why would they switch from a proven high volume reliable (Toyota not jeep) vehicle with massive dealer networks to a new startup i dont know

you missed

"beam axles for increased ground clearance"

Another fallacy, yes theres now lower suspension arm (right by the wheel/tyre so not the lowest point) but the diff is lower on a beam axle and being between the wheels where you get a large raised rut on any greenlane/farmtrack etc, and stays this height no matter how much you raise the suspension. So independents that jack up the suspension have better ground clearance and the same break over.

Super off roaders like unimogs (and the G500) have a gearbox in the hub that lowers the wheel centre vs the axle centre , but they arent doing this as its expensive, heavy and only works with massive wheels

[normalbloke]

jagfan2 said:

Max_Torque said:

ash73 said:

jeremy996 said:

Grenadier sent me an update - if i can afford it, this may be my next new vehicle; everything the blingy Defender 90/110 isn't.

http://view.grenadier.ineos.com/?qs=4ce966d3f80b6f...

Strange website, there aren't any pictures of it... Or is it such a tough 4x4 nobody cares what it looks like, they just want to see ladder chassis porn.

click through and see how many glaring engineering gaffs you can spot, such as:



"Beam axles provide improved ride comfort"

er no, ride comfort is primarily driven by the ratio of sprung to unsprung mass, so for any given vehicle mass, independant suspension provides a better ride (which is why pretty much all modern passenger vehicles have had independant suspension for the last 20 or so years)


"Box section ladder chassis for maximum stiffness"

er, nope, stiffness is created by carrying loads in the plane they act, not orthagonally. Try this is a piece of paper, pull it length ways, then bend it long ways, see what i mean. This is why all modern passenger vehicles use a unibody construction to allow loads to be carried with the highest stiffness but th e lowest mass. A simple beam in pure bending, rather than triangulated will have to be far heavier and thicker stiffness to create the same stiffness as a unibody.


"Box section chassis for maximum towing capacity"

Why does the chassis affect the towing mass? GTW is set by things like gradeability, brake performance and gear ratio's, and not by chassis strength. As long as the trailer loads are correctly spread into the structure, this has zero impact on GTW.


And my favourite beam axle untruth, the classic for people who don't understand what they are talking about:

"TRACTION YOU CAN TRUST, When one end or side goes up, the opposite pushes into the ground for greater grip"

The only thing that matters in a cross axle situation is the total roll stiffness across that axle. And that can be tuned for ANY suspension geometry. We can make a beam axle so stiff it has zero cross axle articulation, and an independant system so soft the body actually falls over when parked. This is nothing to do with "the other side pushing down"...

But the big reason you don't want live axles these days, is actually because you want a steering rack, and not a steering box.......

Given that is Grenadier isn't going to be cheap (a low volume, heavily engineered niche vehicle) who exactly is the target audience? Sure, lots of beardy off-roaders would love one, but they are knocking around in £3k Disco1's, and haven't got £50k to drop on a toy. Zero dealer or market backup means the utilities ain't going to go anywhere near an expesnive white elephant. The Army (sensibly) isn't interested in soft skinned vehicles any more, so other that a couple of rich Londonites, who is going to buy this vehicle?? (especially when you can just buy a toyota that does everything this Grenadier does already???)

Spot on on all of the above - especially who is going to buy them, given the original defender maxed out at 20-25k sold a year inc army/utilities/aid etc. There is the Middle and and asian market that buy the land cruisers, and US that buy Jeeps, but again why would they switch from a proven high volume reliable (Toyota not jeep) vehicle with massive dealer networks to a new startup i dont know

you missed

"beam axles for increased ground clearance"

Another fallacy, yes theres now lower suspension arm (right by the wheel/tyre so not the lowest point) but the diff is lower on a beam axle and being between the wheels where you get a large raised rut on any greenlane/farmtrack etc, and stays this height no matter how much you raise the suspension. So independents that jack up the suspension have better ground clearance and the same break over.

Super off roaders like unimogs (and the G500) have a gearbox in the hub that lowers the wheel centre vs the axle centre , but they arent doing this as its expensive, heavy and only works with massive wheels

Portal axles only work on massive wheels? Tell that to the Haflinger...

[Clivey]

normalbloke said:

Portal axles only work on massive wheels? Tell that to the Haflinger...

I've also seen portal axles fitted to Defenders and Discoverys.

Another point about solid axles though is that generally 4x4s using them are easier to fit larger tyres to...and they really do make a difference. Still, this new Defender is already on 32"s from the factory...encouraging!

[jeremy996]

Max_Torque said:

click through and see how many glaring engineering gaffs you can spot, such as:



"Beam axles provide improved ride comfort"
............................................................................................................

I do not see these as engineering gaffs, more marketing ones. I see this more as a light truck than a car. I've not met a marketeer who has ever worried about writing gibberish, and all the bits you have quoted are, as you pointed out, complete bollards.

The Grenadier proposition is all about a long lasting utility vehicle, so I don't think those choices are that surprising as they make for a mechanically and electriclally simpler vehicle. (Yes, I know the BMW engine and likely ZF transmission are far from simple, but building engines and trans from scratch in this day and age is a fool's errand).

I want a basic vehicle that will last for a long time. I do not want a new Defender, but I do want something better than my old Defenders. Door seals that work would be nice!

Edited by jeremy996 on Monday 6th April 16:31