Why a performance car when all cars are near equal
Discussion
A thought I had the other day and really not sure how to word the subject.
OK imagine petrol cars are now banned (from being made) and all companies switch to electric. It seems getting performance from an EV is pretty equal when compared to a combustion engine so nearly all cars will be fast off the line (thinking of i3's here) and have a respectable top end etc.
So the question is why bother with a Sports car? What are the likes of Ferrari etc going to be able to come up to make their car any different to all the other EV's which have the motors in the same place and the battery along the floor.
Days gone by it would be the number of cylinders, how the engine made power (turbo or natural), the noise it made, where the engine was positioned etc etc. Now with battery packs being chucked in the floor to maximise space and all make bugger all noise is it really going to come down to just the way it looks? Is that even enough for the likes of use when you strip the rest of it away?
So where do you see it going? How will they stand out? Are we destined for a bland soulless car future?
OK imagine petrol cars are now banned (from being made) and all companies switch to electric. It seems getting performance from an EV is pretty equal when compared to a combustion engine so nearly all cars will be fast off the line (thinking of i3's here) and have a respectable top end etc.
So the question is why bother with a Sports car? What are the likes of Ferrari etc going to be able to come up to make their car any different to all the other EV's which have the motors in the same place and the battery along the floor.
Days gone by it would be the number of cylinders, how the engine made power (turbo or natural), the noise it made, where the engine was positioned etc etc. Now with battery packs being chucked in the floor to maximise space and all make bugger all noise is it really going to come down to just the way it looks? Is that even enough for the likes of use when you strip the rest of it away?
So where do you see it going? How will they stand out? Are we destined for a bland soulless car future?
Possibly worth taking the Model S and Taycan as an example. Having no personal experience I can only go on what I have read/watched by others.
As I understand:
Model S - Bit more room, generally faster
Taycan - Better handling, more traditional fit and finish (may eventually top up quicker)
So if you can classify the Taycan as a sports car due to handling characteristics and the Model S as an accomplished saloon, subjective I know given performance. Porsche is definitely a brand that represents "sports" I can see why I would choose it, there would appear still to be the opportunities for BEV's to differentiate.
As I understand:
Model S - Bit more room, generally faster
Taycan - Better handling, more traditional fit and finish (may eventually top up quicker)
So if you can classify the Taycan as a sports car due to handling characteristics and the Model S as an accomplished saloon, subjective I know given performance. Porsche is definitely a brand that represents "sports" I can see why I would choose it, there would appear still to be the opportunities for BEV's to differentiate.
Handling will be the next big thing. Going fast in a squiggly line is better than going fast in one direction.
I suspect some manufacturers may artificially cripple cheaper cars performance as they do already with ecu maps. A sports aimed car will have better delivery of power.
I also suspect there will be a big shift in the way dealers operate as they will no longer be able to hump you for oil changes. Perhaps customer service will actually exist.
I reckon reliability will rocket across the board so there will be less perceived risk in supposed 'unreliable' / cheap brands and maybe more attention paid to tactile build quality.
As for purely sport branded cars, Manufacturers have been managing to sell garbage to gullible people for a long time (from racing stripes to sound actuators) and there will be plenty of gullible people in the future for them to survive on.
I suspect some manufacturers may artificially cripple cheaper cars performance as they do already with ecu maps. A sports aimed car will have better delivery of power.
I also suspect there will be a big shift in the way dealers operate as they will no longer be able to hump you for oil changes. Perhaps customer service will actually exist.
I reckon reliability will rocket across the board so there will be less perceived risk in supposed 'unreliable' / cheap brands and maybe more attention paid to tactile build quality.
As for purely sport branded cars, Manufacturers have been managing to sell garbage to gullible people for a long time (from racing stripes to sound actuators) and there will be plenty of gullible people in the future for them to survive on.
even now with only a tiny number of EVs on the road the way they drive is very different
even the model S and model 3 drive and feel very very different to each other
as time goes on there will be huge potential for small RWD and "light" weight sports EVs with a focus on driving
one of the advantages of clean sheet EVs is for the most part they will be RWD
even the model S and model 3 drive and feel very very different to each other
as time goes on there will be huge potential for small RWD and "light" weight sports EVs with a focus on driving
one of the advantages of clean sheet EVs is for the most part they will be RWD
And in the Brave New World......
Within a very short period of time - just a decade or so - we will all be forced to buy EVs (if buying new)
Because ICE cars will be 'obsolete' within this time frame the powers that be will, FOR CERTAIN, take the opportunity of legislating for compatibility / autonomy for all vehicles:
1) Performance will be limited by 'Big Brother'. If the speed limit is 30, your car will go no faster than 30 (ie gps limiters)
2) Acceleration / overtaking will likewise be limited to ensure roads are 'safe'. Your car won't deviate from it's correct side of the road.
3) Self driving vehicles (SDV - is this a new acronym!) will need to 'speak' to one another and therefore it's logical to remove individual decision making (drivers) from the equation
4) For self driving to really work to the optimum non self driving cars will be removed from the road, firstly by subsidies for compliant vehicles, then by taxation of non compliant vehicles (NCV) followed by an outright ban of NCVs
Enjoy your driving while you can..... a decade from now the cars we so love and cherish will be but a memory ..... citizens of the Brave New World will be enslaving themselves to 'rent' an overpriced (but payable in affordable weekly instalments) PTD (Personal Transportation Device) one with about as much charisma of a washing machine.
Within a very short period of time - just a decade or so - we will all be forced to buy EVs (if buying new)
Because ICE cars will be 'obsolete' within this time frame the powers that be will, FOR CERTAIN, take the opportunity of legislating for compatibility / autonomy for all vehicles:
1) Performance will be limited by 'Big Brother'. If the speed limit is 30, your car will go no faster than 30 (ie gps limiters)
2) Acceleration / overtaking will likewise be limited to ensure roads are 'safe'. Your car won't deviate from it's correct side of the road.
3) Self driving vehicles (SDV - is this a new acronym!) will need to 'speak' to one another and therefore it's logical to remove individual decision making (drivers) from the equation
4) For self driving to really work to the optimum non self driving cars will be removed from the road, firstly by subsidies for compliant vehicles, then by taxation of non compliant vehicles (NCV) followed by an outright ban of NCVs
Enjoy your driving while you can..... a decade from now the cars we so love and cherish will be but a memory ..... citizens of the Brave New World will be enslaving themselves to 'rent' an overpriced (but payable in affordable weekly instalments) PTD (Personal Transportation Device) one with about as much charisma of a washing machine.
Because straight line speed is only one feature of a car, and for many people it's not of great interest. This is why many aren't interested in the EVs currently available.
Personally I genuinely couldn't care less how fast the latest Tesla is, I'd still rather drive an Elise with 160bhp.
Personally I genuinely couldn't care less how fast the latest Tesla is, I'd still rather drive an Elise with 160bhp.
You say that all electric cars are the same as the batteries are in the floor and the motors are in similar places, surely this is true for ICE cars too? Most have an engine at the front and most are FWD.
Even if you compare 2 front engined RWD cars they can be very different. Different suspension setup, different weight, length, power to weight, steering feel/quickness. Juts because the power plants are similar doesn't mean a car drives similarly.
Even if you compare 2 front engined RWD cars they can be very different. Different suspension setup, different weight, length, power to weight, steering feel/quickness. Juts because the power plants are similar doesn't mean a car drives similarly.
Baldchap said:
I'm keeping my Elise forever. I don't care how fast the EVs get.
I thought the same until I had to sell mine last year. Trouble is the car has really spoilt me, nothing else really interests me anymore.
Electric cars are only really good for straight line speed. Anything over 2 tons can ever really be called a sports car.
alfaspecial said:
Enjoy your driving while you can..... a decade from now the cars we so love and cherish will be but a memory ..... citizens of the Brave New World will be enslaving themselves to 'rent' an overpriced (but payable in affordable weekly instalments) PTD (Personal Transportation Device) one with about as much charisma of a washing machine.
Why will the current cars be a memory? They are not going to suddenly vanish. I am looking forward to that brave new world actually.
An electric car for the road as an utilitarian white goods mobility device (which most cars already are) and fun cars for the track or at the weekend. If anything, driving as a sport (on track) is going to grow if road driving becomes so frustrating (it already totally is for me anyway).
Not sure what this has to do with how the depreciation will be paid for either.
There is a big disconnect between how fast a car is, and how fun it is. It's something that a lot of people fail to realise, and so manufacturers, driven by marketing departments, keep throwing more power at cars thinking it makes them better.
When an electric family hatch can accelerate like a model 3 can sports car manufacturers will have to focus on making the car fun and involving to drive, rather than chasing 0-60 times and BHP figures. I happen to think that could be a good thing. It's not that I won't miss having a V12, I will miss it very, very much; I just think there could be a bright side. And I don't think the concept of a sports car is dead.
When an electric family hatch can accelerate like a model 3 can sports car manufacturers will have to focus on making the car fun and involving to drive, rather than chasing 0-60 times and BHP figures. I happen to think that could be a good thing. It's not that I won't miss having a V12, I will miss it very, very much; I just think there could be a bright side. And I don't think the concept of a sports car is dead.
I recently had a brand new C43 as a courtesy car while my Merc was fixed (dealer error). As it was a nice transition from the usual nightmare inducing SUV, i loved it at first. The AWD was insanely grippy, and it launched like a rocketship. I stamped it off every set of lights I could. However I very quickly realised that while the car was fast, very very fast, and it made all the right noises, the car had absolutely no soul. Sometimes, not being fast (Ie, a bit sideways) can be more fun than just going really quick in a straight line.
That said I cant wait to get my hands on an electric motorcycle, which I think will suit electric drive a lot more than a car does.
That said I cant wait to get my hands on an electric motorcycle, which I think will suit electric drive a lot more than a car does.
You'll still get what you pay for though won't you. An I3 isn't a particularly cheap car but it gets to 60 just under 7 seconds from what I've seen.
If you go spend £25k on a petrol car, you don't get a 500bhp V8. You get a 200bhp 3/4 cylinder turbo, nothing wrong with that but it's not Tesla performance!
The same will apply to EVs across all ranges. They're not going to make a Golf that hits 60 in 2 seconds because for that performance you'll need the EV equivalent of a Lambo and as such you'll be charged accordingly.
I think the EV's that have been demonstrated so far show the potential for how fast they can be but the likes of a Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf are probably just as realistic an indicator of the future.
If you go spend £25k on a petrol car, you don't get a 500bhp V8. You get a 200bhp 3/4 cylinder turbo, nothing wrong with that but it's not Tesla performance!
The same will apply to EVs across all ranges. They're not going to make a Golf that hits 60 in 2 seconds because for that performance you'll need the EV equivalent of a Lambo and as such you'll be charged accordingly.
I think the EV's that have been demonstrated so far show the potential for how fast they can be but the likes of a Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf are probably just as realistic an indicator of the future.
Drl22 said:
The same could be said of a modern day supercar, why go for a Lamborghini over a Ferrari for example. They both are fast, both finished well, both look nice, both handle well but for some it will be the Lamborghini and for some the Ferrari. There will always be differentiators.
I don't think that is the crux of the problem that performance car brands will face. With all EVs able to make more-or-less the same sort of power, and range being more dependent on battery size than potency, why would you pick a Ferrari over a Ford if acceleration and top speed are the same?
The future Ferrari may look better than the future Ford, but if your only advantage is looks then a lot of people will take the added practicality of a saloon or hatch over a wedgy two-seater.
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