RE: First details of Aston Martin's all-new V6

[anonymous-user]

AmosMoses said:

I'm hoping its a high revving howler of a engine with some electric torque fill.

1) Yes, reasonably

2) Yes, but perhaps not how you might be expecting

;-)



The biggest challenge for AML with this new engine is going to be the productionisation of it. When you buy a high performance engine from Merc, you buy the benefit of an absolutely enourmous amount of reliability and manufacturing investment, runing to the tune of many, mnay millions, meaning your 150bhp/litre engine is relatively speaking, bomb proof and easy to build. This new engine looks mostly like a race engine (certainly at the moment where everything is soft tooled (ie CNC'd not cast) and turning it into an engine that can be built on a line (even at low volume) and an engine that is totally reliable is an enourmous challenger for a small team, certainly way more of a challange than extracting the target amount of power from it (which these days is trivial tbh)

[Megaflow]

Max_Torque said:

1) Yes, reasonably

2) Yes, but perhaps not how you might be expecting

;-)



The biggest challenge for AML with this new engine is going to be the productionisation of it. When you buy a high performance engine from Merc, you buy the benefit of an absolutely enourmous amount of reliability and manufacturing investment, runing to the tune of many, mnay millions, meaning your 150bhp/litre engine is relatively speaking, bomb proof and easy to build. This new engine looks mostly like a race engine (certainly at the moment where everything is soft tooled (ie CNC'd not cast) and turning it into an engine that can be built on a line (even at low volume) and an engine that is totally reliable is an enourmous challenger for a small team, certainly way more of a challange than extracting the target amount of power from it (which these days is trivial tbh)

I’m guessing your are connected to the project Max. Would it be correct to assume this is either half a Valkyrie V12 or 3/4 of a AMG V8 rather than a clean sheet of paper exercise?

[BigChiefmuffinAgain]

Krikkit said:

BigChiefmuffinAgain said:

Reminds me a bit about when TVR decided to develop their own engines for the same reasons ( and I am speaking as someone who bought a new Cerbera in 97 ). Designing an engine is one thing - building one which runs reliably is very different and can get very expensive.

I wish them well.

TVR didn't have class-leading engines from another manufacturer to point them in the right direction, or anywhere near Aston's budget...

They'll basically be getting engines in a crate - not sure how much direction Mercedes will be offering... The challenge is not so much designing an engine, it is building it to be reliable. Aston may have had more cash than TVR, but they are still very stretched financially at the mo, and that means corners will get cut... This was the same problem at TVR.

[Frimley111R]

NST said:

Far to many people want to see Aston fail.

Name 1 person who has posted that they want to see AM fail!

[rev-erend]

Looking at the engine picures, I was hoping to see a turbo or two but all I can see are white hot manifolds (very lean)
and cats and lambda sensors.

Exciting looking engine though.

[anonymous-user]

Megaflow said:

Max_Torque said:

1) Yes, reasonably

2) Yes, but perhaps not how you might be expecting

;-)



The biggest challenge for AML with this new engine is going to be the productionisation of it. When you buy a high performance engine from Merc, you buy the benefit of an absolutely enourmous amount of reliability and manufacturing investment, runing to the tune of many, mnay millions, meaning your 150bhp/litre engine is relatively speaking, bomb proof and easy to build. This new engine looks mostly like a race engine (certainly at the moment where everything is soft tooled (ie CNC'd not cast) and turning it into an engine that can be built on a line (even at low volume) and an engine that is totally reliable is an enourmous challenger for a small team, certainly way more of a challange than extracting the target amount of power from it (which these days is trivial tbh)

I’m guessing your are connected to the project Max. Would it be correct to assume this is either half a Valkyrie V12 or 3/4 of a AMG V8 rather than a clean sheet of paper exercise?

I can't comment on my connection or otherwise to the project, but this is a clean sheet engine. Yes, of course, it owes something to the existing German Hot-V Turbo engines (now 12 year old production tech, as BMW were first to market way back in 2008 with there hot-vee turbo 8), as AML obviously have extensively benchmarked existing hot-vee's, and nothing is truely new in terms of ICE's these days..........



As an asside, waaaay back in 2006 i actually sat in a fairly senior meeting with some Jag people and, having got wind of what the germans were up too, I suggested that they need to do a hot-vee turbo 8 to compete, but they turned the proposal down because "we are jaguar, and we do supercharged engines"........... #facepalm

[anonymous-user]

rev-erend said:

Looking at the engine picures, I was hoping to see a turbo or two

Try looking harder! ;-)

[theJT]

A little surprised they went for a V rather than an inline 6. The inline has a certain amount of provenance, and especially as a 90 degree the V6 is generally seen to be an inferior layout except for packaging reasons - not something that can be a consideration for a long-n-low sports/gt like an Aston.

[pycraft]

Evilex said:

They didn't say it wasn't an "Essex"...

You're right, if you look at the bottom of the first picture you can see the vajazzle.

[anonymous-user]

theJT said:

A little surprised they went for a V rather than an inline 6. The inline has a certain amount of provenance, and especially as a 90 degree the V6 is generally seen to be an inferior layout except for packaging reasons - not something that can be a consideration for a long-n-low sports/gt like an Aston.

with mid engined cars now in their portfolio, engine length is now important to AML And a short engine is critical if you want a long gearbox, and you want a long gearbox because that gives you axial space to include an electric motor.......

And of course, this is a "wide" angle V6, to try to keep a low overall engine height, something that is quite difficult for a hot-vee that has all the gubbins up top

[donteatpeople]

ae2006 said:

AmosMoses said:

I'm hoping its a high revving howler of a engine with some electric torque fill. It could be brilliant, or it could sound like a 350z and be the downfall of Aston.

The VQ35 engine in the 350Z is widely regarded as one of THE best sounding V6. Ok, im a bit biased, i have one, but with a sports exhaust it sounds absolutely fantastic. If a new AM sounds similar it would be a very good thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVy9LOrgWxs

Edited by ae2006 on Tuesday 24th March 09:53

I think widely regarded is an overstatement, some people like it but many don't. To my ears it's got a strange quality about it that makes it sound almost like the engine is gargling. It wouldn't be at the top of my list of favourites.

[Turn7]

Max_Torque said:

Looking at the pics, are the heads "reversed" ? by that I mean, is the exhaust side in the V ?

[anonymous-user]

Turn7 said:

Max_Torque said:

Looking at the pics, are the heads "reversed" ? by that I mean, is the exhaust side in the V ?

Yes, this is a "hot side in the V" engine:

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/general-pistonhea...

[chelme]

sidesauce said:

Interesting time for this report as well as for Aston themselves - at least some of the grumpier people have one less thing to complain about as I assume this will replace the AMG lump. Looking forward to seeing what the output numbers will be too!

It's not for the purpose of satisfying the "grumpy". Its for the purpose of selling cars. I have been advocating for over 10 years, cars like these do better when they have substantively contributed by use of expertise, to develop their own engines. They get more respect for it by consumers and in the industry too.

This is a wise and brave decision. If the engines perform and have character too, assuming all else is equal, the cars will sell.

Having said this, the current Vantage does in my view, also require a subtle face and bum lift... Also the interior needs to be improved...

The DB11 and the SUV look good, as do the mid engined supercars...

Edited by chelme on Tuesday 24th March 13:45

[LayZ]

Seems like a strategic mistake to me. Plenty of buyers happy with MB sourced engines with mapping and exhaust tuning. This must be hugely expensive and a big risk to support it for the next 15 years.

[anonymous-user]

LayZ said:

Seems like a strategic mistake to me. Plenty of buyers happy with MB sourced engines with mapping and exhaust tuning. This must be hugely expensive and a big risk to support it for the next 15 years.

But the plan was always to get back to developing engines in-house. The AMG sourced parts were only ever going to be a stop gap. If you remember that in 2017, the old V8 Vantage engine, was at its core, from the early 2000's, the world had moved on, and it needed a giant step to become competitive.

Buying in technology helped make that step, and in the background, work could begin on a replacement engine that satisfied Euro 7 (which the M177 cannot), and Aston Martins wont sell at all if they're sporting an inline 4 derived from an AMG application.

The ironic thing in all this for me, is that it's Aston moving forwards, developing technologically advanced, downsized, emissions compliant, full fat performance engines, and some purists, be it existing or past customers, are the ones clinging onto the past. How things change.

[rev-erend]

Max_Torque said:

Turn7 said:

Max_Torque said:

Looking at the pics, are the heads "reversed" ? by that I mean, is the exhaust side in the V ?

Yes, this is a "hot side in the V" engine:

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/general-pistonhea...

Thanks for the explanation .. that explains a lot.

[Quacker]

For those talking VQ35/350Z - I don’t think it’s going to sound much like that at all. 6 cyl and 90 degrees is about where the similarities end. Two turbochargers and GPFs change things somewhat. GPFs kill sound - like trying to sing happy birthday with a ball of socks in your gob.

[ManyMotors]

The V6 in the 1986/87 Buick Grand National was a wonderfully powerful lump. AM is making their own, similar, and maybe perfect, example. I hope they sell...

[Turn7]

Max_Torque said:

Turn7 said:

Max_Torque said:

Looking at the pics, are the heads "reversed" ? by that I mean, is the exhaust side in the V ?

Yes, this is a "hot side in the V" engine:

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/general-pistonhea...

Fascinating, thanks.

Not something Id realised was in use.