RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender | The short review

RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender | The short review

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Discussion

AngryPartsBloke

1,094 posts

109 months

Thursday 26th March
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300bhp/ton said:
Wrangler is a ripoff in the UK. Base price in the USA is around $27k
It doesn't matter if it's a rip off in the UK or cheaper in the US, the fact remains is that is the list price here. US base price also excludes local and state level sales taxes. UK price includes taxes. They're also built in ohio which has to be factored into the UK OTR price.

Bill

42,775 posts

213 months

Thursday 26th March
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Stick Legs said:
LimaDelta said:
At the risk of opening up old wounds, please allow me to try to help people understand the disappointment this new Defender represents for many people.

Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.

Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.

The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.

The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more hehe
Very well done. I like a nicely crafted analogy.
The thing is, most of the people moaning about the new pub only ever got the slops from round the back.

AngryPartsBloke

1,094 posts

109 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
And how are you coming up with this nugget of informational drivel?
Probably because very few of the people going on and on about how iconic the old defender actually bothered to order a new one while they we're available.

Adding to the pub analogy of earlier, it's like moaning that your favourite old pub has changed despite the fact you never actually put your money in your pocket.


300bhp/ton

39,048 posts

148 months

Thursday 26th March
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braddo said:
300bhp/ton said:
braddo said:
It has loads of design cues from the old Defender.
Where?
You are a reasonable person in your Jimny thread.

You are the same blind fool you have always been on this thread. I thought you had changed. frown

No more troll feeding from me. It beggars belief.
By insulting me, all you are saying is you can't answer the question.

What design clues? There is practically nothing that this new model shares with the out going one. The only one I can think of is the middle seat in the front. Nothing else is Defender'esq.

Is there a single line on the new one that matches the old one?



300bhp/ton

39,048 posts

148 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
AngryPartsBloke said:
It doesn't matter if it's a rip off in the UK or cheaper in the US, the fact remains is that is the list price here. US base price also excludes local and state level sales taxes. UK price includes taxes. They're also built in ohio which has to be factored into the UK OTR price.
Not really. If you had gone to the Wrangler JK launch in 2006/7 you'd understand.

300bhp/ton

39,048 posts

148 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
AngryPartsBloke said:
Probably because very few of the people going on and on about how iconic the old defender actually bothered to order a new one while they we're available.

Adding to the pub analogy of earlier, it's like moaning that your favourite old pub has changed despite the fact you never actually put your money in your pocket.
So same answer. Where are you coming up with this drivel as though it is fact?

AngryPartsBloke

1,094 posts

109 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
So same answer. Where are you coming up with this drivel as though it is fact?
By the "Drivel as though it is fact" are you meaning the publicly available and easy to find sales figures for Europe.

Fact is you can't sell a car for a market that no longer exists.

Fact is that in the end Ford sold more Ranger pickups a month than LR sold defenders in a year.

Fact is that Utility companies and the Military moved away to much more specialized vehicles years ago.

AngryPartsBloke

1,094 posts

109 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Not really. If you had gone to the Wrangler JK launch in 2006/7 you'd understand.
Of course, care to share with us some more detail as you're so keen on facts all of a sudden?

It's 2020 now, FYI.

595Heaven

1,100 posts

36 months

Thursday 26th March
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braddo said:
My God you are full of it. Go back to your Jimny.

The videos clearly demonstrate it is a very capable 4x4. The old one would get crushed by the new one on that Namibian route in terms of journey time and comfort.

It has loads of design cues from the old Defender. Like the P38 and L322 have cues from the original Range Rover without being retro pastiches.

You are not judging your new Jimny against how much you can beat up an old Land Rover. Why do it to the new Defender?
Sigh... but this...

The Jimny is a great looking car. Would love one as a fun little runabout, but as an everyday / only car? No thanks. Was the same with my old Defender - overflowing with character and charm, but given the choice of that or my Velar (or whatever I had at the time) for a long journey, it came a poor second. Was never out of it at the weekend though.

The new Defender doesn’t have any of that on road compromise. Even on off road tyres, mine rides unbelievably well, and is really quiet, with a nice background of Diesel engine noise. Massively practical, spacious, tough and great looking.

And then... it transforms into an incredible machine off road. And back again - that’s its incredible party trick. The breadth of ability is amazing.

Would love to get 300bhp to Eastnor in his Jimny - he’d have a great day out. And if he wanted to try the deeper ruts and water I’d happily tow him out. let’s hope that carpeted floor dries out easily wink


J8 SVG

1,309 posts

88 months

Thursday 26th March
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300bhp/ton said:
By insulting me, all you are saying is you can't answer the question.

What design clues? There is practically nothing that this new model shares with the out going one. The only one I can think of is the middle seat in the front. Nothing else is Defender'esq.

Is there a single line on the new one that matches the old one?


Those drawings are really good, did you do them yourself?

https://europe.autonews.com/blogs/land-rover-defen...

Dapster

4,384 posts

138 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
braddo said:
300bhp/ton said:
braddo said:
It has loads of design cues from the old Defender.
Where?
You are a reasonable person in your Jimny thread.

You are the same blind fool you have always been on this thread. I thought you had changed. frown

No more troll feeding from me. It beggars belief.
By insulting me, all you are saying is you can't answer the question.

What design clues? There is practically nothing that this new model shares with the out going one. The only one I can think of is the middle seat in the front. Nothing else is Defender'esq.

Is there a single line on the new one that matches the old one?




You're asking LR to go straight from Mk 1 to Mk 8 in one design change. Had there been 8 new models in between, the evolution would have worked, like it has on the Range Rover. The Mk8 Golf doesn't look like the Mk1 but we all know it's a Golf because of all of the stepping stones in between.

Back to the pub - take an old country boozer and that's been thoughtfully refurbished every 10 years; you now have a charming wood beamed, log fired building with lovely food and decent beer, wifi and modern toilets. Nothing jarrs, all the themes work together.

andyxxx

523 posts

185 months

Thursday 26th March
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300bhp/ton said:
andyxxx said:
I have not been without a Defender for 25 years and though I like them I don’t agree with most of that.
I think the new one is great and as long as it proves reliable, with reviews like this and most of the others I have seen it should prove a success, though optioned up, it does seem expensive.
Why don't you agree?

And what does this model offer than a Disco 2/3/4 can't do equally as well?

I'm not knocking the capability of this new vehicle. All I'm saying is, it isn't remotely a Defender in ethos, design, looks, style, construction, capabilities or heritage. I simply do not see how any of that can be argued.
I don't agree because I think your statements were wrong.

The original design has some terrible flaws.
It is not wide enough to comfortable sit in without rubbing the door.
Turning circle terrible
Poor agricultural ride (and I understand it is not a car, but that does not make it acceptable)
Handling off road excellent, but otherwise not good and is fun to drive only to people that ‘get them’/are enthusiasts.
You say “Pretty comfortable/rode well” – this is patently not the case (unless maybe you compare to a 60s car or ancient tractor)
Heating system that they never solved in the history of the car.
I think you probably know all their faults - but chose not to see them.

Having said all that, they certainly have character and I like mine – but not with rose tinted glasses.

Perhaps they should have dropped the Defender name, but I don’t have a problem with it and I like the new style and see many design clues from the original.


LimaDelta

4,510 posts

176 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
AngryPartsBloke said:
Adding to the pub analogy of earlier, it's like moaning that your favourite old pub has changed despite the fact you never actually put your money in your pocket.
Many of them did put their hand in their pocket, the problem is that they didn't do so often enough. All old Defenders were once bought new, but people held onto them. How many 'new Defender' owners will keep their cars for 20+ years? I'd guess at none, they will PCP them at heavily discounted rates and swap them every three years like good little consumers. JLR clearly following the German's lead here.

AngryPartsBloke

1,094 posts

109 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
Many of them did put their hand in their pocket, the problem is that they didn't do so often enough. All old Defenders were once bought new, but people held onto them. How many 'new Defender' owners will keep their cars for 20+ years? I'd guess at none, they will PCP them at heavily discounted rates and swap them every three years like good little consumers. JLR clearly following the German's lead here.
Problem is that selling one car to a small subset of customers does not make for a successful business. Despite what many people think, that's what the point of a business is. They aren't there to provide a car that meets the needs of a very small group, because they feel they are entitled to it.

LimaDelta

4,510 posts

176 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
Many of them did put their hand in their pocket, the problem is that they didn't do so often enough. All old Defenders were once bought new, but people held onto them. How many 'new Defender' owners will keep their cars for 20+ years? I'd guess at none, they will PCP them at heavily discounted rates and swap them every three years like good little consumers. JLR clearly following the German's lead here.
Problem is that selling one car to a small subset of customers does not make for a successful business. Despite what many people think, that's what the point of a business is. They aren't there to provide a car that meets the needs of a very small group, because they are entitled to it.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that. They are a business and their sole purpose is to make money, not cars. That doesn't mean people can't be a little disappointed with their misappropriation of the Defender name. If they'd called it the Discovery 5 I think the praise would have been universal, the price right and all would be well with the world.

It's like JLR redesigned a Caterham 7 and came up with a Golf R. It's 'better' in every measurable way, and would sell really well, but completely misses the point of the original.

AngryPartsBloke

1,094 posts

109 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
Many of them did put their hand in their pocket, the problem is that they didn't do so often enough. All old Defenders were once bought new, but people held onto them. How many 'new Defender' owners will keep their cars for 20+ years? I'd guess at none, they will PCP them at heavily discounted rates and swap them every three years like good little consumers. JLR clearly following the German's lead here.
Problem is that selling one car to a small subset of customers does not make for a successful business. Despite what many people think, that's what the point of a business is. They aren't there to provide a car that meets the needs of a very small group, because they are entitled to it.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that. They are a business and their sole purpose is to make money, not cars. That doesn't mean people can't be a little disappointed with their misappropriation of the Defender name. If they'd called it the Discovery 5 I think the praise would have been universal, the price right and all would be well with the world.

It's like JLR redesigned a Caterham 7 and came up with a Golf R. It's 'better' in every measurable way, and would sell really well, but completely misses the point of the original.
I think your first paragraph sums up my point quite nicely. They haven't misappropriated anything. Defender name is their IP, to do with it as they wish. You might not agree with what they do, but they have every right to do it.

As for the second paragraph, i don't think that's really a fair analogy.

braddo

7,195 posts

146 months

Thursday 26th March
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I am sure people had similar objections about the P38 being called a Range Rover.

The new Defender is deserving of the Defender name.

It is the best and toughest 4x4 that Land Rover make. It just also happens to be a modern, usable car. One day they will become old and cheap and people will off-road them like they off-road old Discoveries, Range Rovers and Defenders today.

LimaDelta

4,510 posts

176 months

Thursday 26th March
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AngryPartsBloke said:
As for the second paragraph, i don't think that's really a fair analogy.
I think it is pretty much spot on. Both the Defender and the Caterham are British-born highly compromised 'vintage' designs which appeal to a small number of people, are used for a specific purpose, and are (were) made in low volumes. Landrover don't want to build a Caterham, they want to build a Golf R, and I think they have probably succeded.

dmanders

3 posts

14 months

Thursday 26th March
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I was bought mine for Xmas 2019.
I like it!!
Design is a bit blocky though, I'll admit that.

AngryPartsBloke

1,094 posts

109 months

Thursday 26th March
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LimaDelta said:
I think it is pretty much spot on. Both the Defender and the Caterham are British-born highly compromised 'vintage' designs which appeal to a small number of people, are used for a specific purpose, and are (were) made in low volumes. Landrover don't want to build a Caterham, they want to build a Golf R, and I think they have probably succeded.
Yes but the Golf R isn't a small rear wheel drive two seater. New defender is still a very capable off road vehicle, with a great payload and towing capacity. While it may not be rugged by old Defender standards, it certainly is compared to the current range.