RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender | The short review

RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender | The short review

Author
Discussion

AngryPartsBloke

964 posts

104 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
user0000001 said:
Like I keep saying, what proof would you like?
My cdsid? My pay grade? (D), my office address (decX when at Gaydon, Gblock at CB, BIWmezz at Nitra), photos of me sleeping at Nitra factory when I was flown over there for the latest disaster mitigation? The names and inside leg measurements of the LL3+4 seniors I presented my issues to in the process chain reviews? I've got my letter from last year stating that I'm too business critical for VR due to the distressed nature of the L663 programme?

Just let me know what you want?
The point isn't about you, I know as an engineer it's probably hard for you to take.

It's the fact that people are prepared to take your post as the sole truth in the matter, and at the same time right off every journalist as lier, purely on the basis that it strengthens thier preexisting assumptions of the Defender.

PushedDover

985 posts

6 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
But the points made about travel sickness being induced? the Vibrating back door due to wheel selection, the .......



all of those Opinions are not valid ?

user0000001

14 posts

144 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all


You learn a lot more about seeing a car overseeing it from the CAD phase, through every component being developed fitted and tested, than you will from driving a [heavily fettled, and not entirely representative of what customers will receive] example for a few days.

I honestly don't care if you like my opinions or not, but they come from dealing with almost every part number on the vehicle (carryover and new), and not just reciting a press release.

Edited by user0000001 on Friday 27th March 19:27

PushedDover

985 posts

6 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
Seems Legit ....

Max_Torque

14,898 posts

170 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
Unfortunately, people close to projects are in their own way, as blinkered as those jammy journo's riding the gravy train across Namibia!

Every car project i've ever worked on has been a difficult one, mainly because the sort of project i get called to work on ARE the difficult ones! If it were easy, everyone would be doing it! I can name probably 100 "major flaws" or "omissions" or "areas that could be improved" on every single production car i've ever worked on, but, guess whatm, those cars are out their, being driven by people all the time.. Yes sometimes cars break, yes often because of flaws in the design, but there is no such thing as perfect, even for 1 million quid hyper cars, let alone £50k off roaders.

As an engineer, i am fully aware that the name of the game is compromise, but you'd be amazed at how many engineers are so blinkered that it's their way or the highway (taking VR anyone..... ;-) and fail to understand that compromises will be made in order to get a vehicle to production in any sensible time frame. The more challanging the requirements for that vehicle, the more iconic and cherished the old car being replaced is, the harder the project will be, and the more "arguments" will occur within engineering and between engineering and the rest of the business. Engineers love to talk badly about marketing, but the simple fact remains, without marketing, there would be no money to employ us engineers, and it's worth remembering that at all times.

I've had plenty of "differences of opinion" with JLR on the multitude of projects i've been involved with, there are many things i would do differently if it were 'my' project, but they weren't my project. The important fact to take away is that nothing is without compromise or perfect, and if someone tells you it is, they are lying.......

longblackcoat

4,338 posts

136 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Lots of very sensible stuff
Great post.

tvrforever

3,178 posts

218 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
Followed one on the way home about 4wks ago at night for 3 miles - it's rear lights at night are very "busy" and scattered and frankly look a bit like a lego version of a new mini from behind at night frown

Price? madness...
Reliability? well it's JLR so....
Saturday 28th March
quotequote all
It’s patently apparent that JLR (or just the LR bit) don’t make the same cars that they used to.

For reasons of target market, or whatever, and not saying they are “better” or “worse” as a result, just different.

Different that I have no interest in being part of, but that’s my own personal opinion.

AW111

5,515 posts

86 months

Saturday 28th March
quotequote all
100 said:
New defender looks like a raised mini clubman from rear. Front looks worse than a freelander.
LR had to launch the new Defender before the Mini Countryman grew into it's size category.

Which will only take BMW a couple more model generations.

jagfan2

187 posts

130 months

Saturday 28th March
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
By insulting me, all you are saying is you can't answer the question.

What design clues? There is practically nothing that this new model shares with the out going one. The only one I can think of is the middle seat in the front. Nothing else is Defender'esq.

Is there a single line on the new one that matches the old one?


Besides the bluff back, short rear overhang, side opening tailgate with spare, roof quarterlights, raised bonnet, round headlights all of which aren't on the current range.

In fact way more design cues in common than say the new mini or supra for that matter?

Agree the jimny probably has more in common, but so much so that LR could sue them for plagiarism 😁

unpc

2,114 posts

166 months

Monday 30th March
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Unfortunately, people close to projects are in their own way, as blinkered as those jammy journo's riding the gravy train across Namibia!

Every car project i've ever worked on has been a difficult one, mainly because the sort of project i get called to work on ARE the difficult ones! If it were easy, everyone would be doing it! I can name probably 100 "major flaws" or "omissions" or "areas that could be improved" on every single production car i've ever worked on, but, guess whatm, those cars are out their, being driven by people all the time.. Yes sometimes cars break, yes often because of flaws in the design, but there is no such thing as perfect, even for 1 million quid hyper cars, let alone £50k off roaders.

As an engineer, i am fully aware that the name of the game is compromise, but you'd be amazed at how many engineers are so blinkered that it's their way or the highway (taking VR anyone..... ;-) and fail to understand that compromises will be made in order to get a vehicle to production in any sensible time frame. The more challanging the requirements for that vehicle, the more iconic and cherished the old car being replaced is, the harder the project will be, and the more "arguments" will occur within engineering and between engineering and the rest of the business. Engineers love to talk badly about marketing, but the simple fact remains, without marketing, there would be no money to employ us engineers, and it's worth remembering that at all times.

I've had plenty of "differences of opinion" with JLR on the multitude of projects i've been involved with, there are many things i would do differently if it were 'my' project, but they weren't my project. The important fact to take away is that nothing is without compromise or perfect, and if someone tells you it is, they are lying.......
Well put. I've been on enough projects (including many at JLR) to know that engineers always know best I am one by the way) but they never have the complete picture. Every vehicle project is compromised in some way.

Andeh1

5,743 posts

159 months

Tuesday 31st March
quotequote all
AngryPartsBloke said:
user0000001 said:
Like I keep saying, what proof would you like?
My cdsid? My pay grade? (D), my office address (decX when at Gaydon, Gblock at CB, BIWmezz at Nitra), photos of me sleeping at Nitra factory when I was flown over there for the latest disaster mitigation? The names and inside leg measurements of the LL3+4 seniors I presented my issues to in the process chain reviews? I've got my letter from last year stating that I'm too business critical for VR due to the distressed nature of the L663 programme?

Just let me know what you want?
The point isn't about you, I know as an engineer it's probably hard for you to take.

It's the fact that people are prepared to take your post as the sole truth in the matter, and at the same time right off every journalist as lier, purely on the basis that it strengthens thier preexisting assumptions of the Defender.
I've done my fair share of work for JLR & several other equiv-ish firms, as an engineer and more. The problem with engineers is that they loose sight of the big picture. Everything must be engineered to perfection, because engineers like solving & improving everything. What engineers are terrible for is compromising & accepting 'it's good enough''.

However, that doesn't always go without a hitch when ''good looking cars sell' nor 'tough choices' nor 'time limited' nor 'budget constraints'. No customer truly gives a st about the engineering, providing it works to their expectations, however people will very much give a st if the bumper looks odd (Disco5 aside)...or it costs too much...or it is too late & another OEM gets there first.

Engineers are two-a-penny, but very good engineers are rare...where they appreciate & understand the constraints, accept the wider team's needs and ultimately deliver the best they can, whilst respecting the needs of others around them/above them. This is obviously something user0000001 failed at, hence the bitter posts. rolleyes

LimaDelta

4,220 posts

171 months

Tuesday 31st March
quotequote all
Andeh1 said:
No customer truly gives a st about the engineering, providing it works to their expectations
But often it doesn't, so as a customer who does 'give a st about the engineering', I disagree with your premise. I fully accept I am in a minority, but that doesn't make me wrong.


Andeh1

5,743 posts

159 months

Saturday 4th April
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
Andeh1 said:
No customer truly gives a st about the engineering, providing it works to their expectations
But often it doesn't, so as a customer who does 'give a st about the engineering', I disagree with your premise. I fully accept I am in a minority, but that doesn't make me wrong.
Nope, and I agree with you & fall into the same category as you. However, as you said...we are the minority. I should have phrased it '95% of customers' not ''all'. JLR can not afford to cater for the minority, hence me using a sweeping generalising aimed at the ''general'' JLR customers... Above average wealth, after a luxury, practical vehicle which they know won't let them down in the snow, on the beach, on big verges, wet fields but will otherwise spends 99% of it's miles onroad. Hence the 'no sts given about the engineering, as long as it delivers on their expectations'.

camel_landy

2,813 posts

136 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Shakermaker said:
How have so many of you missed the part that a commercial version is due, but hasn't been launched yet?
Here is a list of attributes that define what a "Defender" was, or indeed a list that could equally apply pretty much the entire line of Land Rover models from the 1948 80" Series 1 through the vehicles evolution (Series II, IIa, III, Stage 1), right up to the final 2016 Defender model.

  • Modular body design
  • Utilitarian premised
  • Ladder chassis
  • Live axles
  • Birmabright panels
  • Folding windscreen
  • Removable door tops
  • PTO capability
  • Manual gearboxes
  • V8 engines
  • Proper suspension flex and axle articulation
  • Heavy duty hub and PCD
  • Pickup variants
  • Boxy body design and flat panels
  • Relatively small vehicle foot print and narrow width
  • Function over form rather than form over function
  • Native off road capability of the design and platform without needing to rely on electronics to give it any ability in the rough
  • Non plush interiors (another function over form thing)
  • Simple and durable design
  • Sensible tough bumpers and a lack of painted plastic
  • A vehicle that you feel connected to your surroundings in, rather than distanced. On road and especially off road.

Does this new model share any of the above?
Good grief, not this again. We've been through this before... Those are the attributes YOU have have associated with the Defender.

You've hijacked numerous threads and it has been 'discussed' to death; Please stop!

Defender belongs to Land Rover, not you. It's up to Land Rover to decide what attributes define the Defender.

M

AW111

5,515 posts

86 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
300bhp/ton said:
Shakermaker said:
How have so many of you missed the part that a commercial version is due, but hasn't been launched yet?
Here is a list of attributes that define what a "Defender" was, or indeed a list that could equally apply pretty much the entire line of Land Rover models from the 1948 80" Series 1 through the vehicles evolution (Series II, IIa, III, Stage 1), right up to the final 2016 Defender model.

  • Modular body design
  • Utilitarian premised
  • Ladder chassis
  • Live axles
  • Birmabright panels
  • Folding windscreen
  • Removable door tops
  • PTO capability
  • Manual gearboxes
  • V8 engines
  • Proper suspension flex and axle articulation
  • Heavy duty hub and PCD
  • Pickup variants
  • Boxy body design and flat panels
  • Relatively small vehicle foot print and narrow width
  • Function over form rather than form over function
  • Native off road capability of the design and platform without needing to rely on electronics to give it any ability in the rough
  • Non plush interiors (another function over form thing)
  • Simple and durable design
  • Sensible tough bumpers and a lack of painted plastic
  • A vehicle that you feel connected to your surroundings in, rather than distanced. On road and especially off road.

Does this new model share any of the above?
Good grief, not this again. We've been through this before... Those are the attributes YOU have have associated with the Defender.

You've hijacked numerous threads and it has been 'discussed' to death; Please stop!

Defender belongs to Land Rover, not you. It's up to Land Rover to decide what attributes define the Defender.

M
As long as they keep the legendary JLR build quality and reliability, it's a proper Defender. biggrin

I'm surprised 300 didn't add "random bits falling off" to his list of attributes a proper Defender needs.

camel_landy

2,813 posts

136 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
longblackcoat said:
Max_Torque said:
Lots of very sensible stuff
Great post.
+1... "Compromise" is the most important word there.

I too work with some brilliant minds and I've often noticed they have a very 'binary' approach. Compromise is not something which comes naturally, if at all!!

There is no simple answer; sometimes explaining and walking through the other aspects helps (such as having to actually make something a commercial success) but sometimes you just have to accept it when you're told to shut-up and tow the line.

"Ours not to reason why, ours but to do and die"

M

camel_landy

2,813 posts

136 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
LimaDelta said:
Andeh1 said:
No customer truly gives a st about the engineering, providing it works to their expectations
But often it doesn't, so as a customer who does 'give a st about the engineering', I disagree with your premise. I fully accept I am in a minority, but that doesn't make me wrong.
It's a bit of both...

Customers DO give a st about the engineering but most of them don't care as much as you think they do.

But then those that do, will often be focused on specific areas, rather than minute detail about everything. Someone interested in the engineering aspects of the drive train may not be quite so interested in the engineering of UI for the sat-nav. wink

...which then leads onto the customer demographics, target audiences, what's important to them, steering groups, etc. because snr management are going to want as much information to base these compromise decisions on.

M

jack_86

335 posts

45 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
I have now seen a few in the flesh only the 110 and the thing is a monster it’s huge!!

The thing for me with Land Rover is they are a lot of money and where I live (Warwickshire) they seem to give every employee one which devalues they brand!

JonnyVTEC

1,777 posts

128 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
Nuneaton ASDA? Looks like the one my ex-neighbour is swanning about in.