Why did people spec auto on performance cars?
Discussion
smartie93 said:
You're joking right? You don't even need your left foot for the dct. Let alone do something as skillful as rev matching.
Also an exaggeration at best, you'll find the ratios are fairly similar. You might have 4 useful ratios vs 3, not 7!
Ultimately dct offers brilliant performance and convenience for everyday cars. I've driven a lot of DCTs and ZF8s, they make perfect sense in the modern world
I fully accept it might make you faster, and give you more control with less things to think about, but to suggest that they are as engaging or fun to use is ludicrous. They make changing gear easier and more convenient, ultimately making it less engaging by removing all the challenging aspects.
Put it this way, someone who is quick in a manual would also be quick in a DCT, however, someone who is used to DCT will struggle with a manual.
We are confusing opinions as facts. Just because YOU find it mor engaging and fun, doesn't mean everyone else does. Also an exaggeration at best, you'll find the ratios are fairly similar. You might have 4 useful ratios vs 3, not 7!
Ultimately dct offers brilliant performance and convenience for everyday cars. I've driven a lot of DCTs and ZF8s, they make perfect sense in the modern world
I fully accept it might make you faster, and give you more control with less things to think about, but to suggest that they are as engaging or fun to use is ludicrous. They make changing gear easier and more convenient, ultimately making it less engaging by removing all the challenging aspects.
Put it this way, someone who is quick in a manual would also be quick in a DCT, however, someone who is used to DCT will struggle with a manual.
PanicBuyingBogRoll said:
smartie93 said:
You're joking right? You don't even need your left foot for the dct. Let alone do something as skillful as rev matching.
Also an exaggeration at best, you'll find the ratios are fairly similar. You might have 4 useful ratios vs 3, not 7!
Ultimately dct offers brilliant performance and convenience for everyday cars. I've driven a lot of DCTs and ZF8s, they make perfect sense in the modern world
I fully accept it might make you faster, and give you more control with less things to think about, but to suggest that they are as engaging or fun to use is ludicrous. They make changing gear easier and more convenient, ultimately making it less engaging by removing all the challenging aspects.
Put it this way, someone who is quick in a manual would also be quick in a DCT, however, someone who is used to DCT will struggle with a manual.
We are confusing opinions as facts. Just because YOU find it mor engaging and fun, doesn't mean everyone else does. Also an exaggeration at best, you'll find the ratios are fairly similar. You might have 4 useful ratios vs 3, not 7!
Ultimately dct offers brilliant performance and convenience for everyday cars. I've driven a lot of DCTs and ZF8s, they make perfect sense in the modern world
I fully accept it might make you faster, and give you more control with less things to think about, but to suggest that they are as engaging or fun to use is ludicrous. They make changing gear easier and more convenient, ultimately making it less engaging by removing all the challenging aspects.
Put it this way, someone who is quick in a manual would also be quick in a DCT, however, someone who is used to DCT will struggle with a manual.
smartie93 said:
You're joking right? You don't even need your left foot for the dct. Let alone do something as skillful as rev matching.
Also an exaggeration at best, you'll find the ratios are fairly similar. You might have 4 useful ratios vs 3, not 7!
Ultimately dct offers brilliant performance and convenience for everyday cars. I've driven a lot of DCTs and ZF8s, they make perfect sense in the modern world
I fully accept it might make you faster, and give you more control with less things to think about, but to suggest that they are as engaging or fun to use is ludicrous. They make changing gear easier and more convenient, ultimately making it less engaging by removing all the challenging aspects.
Put it this way, someone who is quick in a manual would also be quick in a DCT, however, someone who is used to DCT will struggle with a manual.
Not always true.Also an exaggeration at best, you'll find the ratios are fairly similar. You might have 4 useful ratios vs 3, not 7!
Ultimately dct offers brilliant performance and convenience for everyday cars. I've driven a lot of DCTs and ZF8s, they make perfect sense in the modern world
I fully accept it might make you faster, and give you more control with less things to think about, but to suggest that they are as engaging or fun to use is ludicrous. They make changing gear easier and more convenient, ultimately making it less engaging by removing all the challenging aspects.
Put it this way, someone who is quick in a manual would also be quick in a DCT, however, someone who is used to DCT will struggle with a manual.
I don't find in of itself, changing gear "VITAL TO THE DRIVING INTERACTION". I have just as much fun doing some F1 style flappy paddle action.
And yes, I can heel and toe and double declutch and all the other "advanced" stuff, very few cars have gearboxes SO GOOD that it , on balance , makes sense to have the manual. All that does is reduce wear and improve smoothness, which an automatic can do for you
According to how many left for example with the M135i, there are 5.4k Automatics and only 1.8k Manuals.
At the time this was a reasonably cheap, capable, fun, reliable and economical "hot hatch" which had complete angel status with all the car journalists at the time and not only that, but had some amazing lease deals on launch as well.
Combined with buyer demand and I'm sure an element of the "environment" as well, the M140 and M240 were only made with automatics.
How many times do manufacturers make manual gearbox cars for the HARD CORE ENTHUSIASTS but........no-one buys it...
This isn't the 1980s anymore, REAL MEN can drive manuals or automatics and I don't think changing gear is in any way challenging so I don't buy that argument.
Regarding ratios, it is very true that many Porsches come highly over geared which sort of makes it pointless.
Certainly ratios are not "similar" between Porsche manuals and many other models - most petrol manual performance cars have a 2nd gear that tops out around 60mph give or take. To move 2nd up to 80+ mph means that really you only need 3rd gear on most drives.
They are geared in such a way that it only makes sense on large, open race tracks like Portimao , Silverstone, Nurburgring and spa etc. Certainly at a circuit like Cadwell park you'll probably find the gaping chasm between gears a pain in the arse and on the road to actually make use of the gears and powerband you'll be travelling at completely idiotic speeds.
CanAm said:
Porsche fitted PDK gearboxes to their Le Mans cars through choice. All F1 cars now have similar gearboxes. They're faster and more idiot-proof.
I wouldn't have chosen the old Tiptronic boxes, but I can see why people now go for modern automatics.
Iirc the oreca vipers had a manual box but kept it in 4th for Le Mans as it only lost a second from ultimate lap pace. At least this is what stuck in my head from reading it in evo years ago.I wouldn't have chosen the old Tiptronic boxes, but I can see why people now go for modern automatics.
I think a lot of people spec the modern dsg/flappy paddle option as it gives them less to think about on track, the number of people in a position to buy expensive performance /super cars being far greater than the number of driving gods. No one likes a money shift regardless of wealth. This then drives the situation where it’s extremely costly for the manufacturer to develop a manual option (box, plus ecu, harness and production lone changes) that few people want.
So essentially it’s market forces and economics. Who would’ve thought?
Personally I haven’t driven a performance car with a modern auto, the only dsg I’ve tried being a derv hire car. My budget allows only for the previous gen of higher end stuff (911, r8 etc) of which there are sadly not many manuals around here. Manuals are extremely rare in RoW markets, doubt yourself lucky there’s still demand iN Europe!
Does anyone get home and say "Sorry I am late love, took the manual, the gearchages are so much slower"
Car performance has got daft and largely unnecessary, 4wd and DCT gearboxes are part of that, launch control in some of them and 0-60 in three and a bit seconds with zero input required other than press brake and accelerator, then release brake. Its impressive but soon becomes a bit boring.
Its great for numbers for comparing, its technically interesting but its not really asking anything of you as a driver and it has the byproduct of you very soon ending up at ridiculous speed, having become addled by and addicted to acceleration.
For me, for fun road driving, lighter weight, manual box, 250 bhp ish, good feedback and forget what everyone else is doing or has, just focus on your own enjoyment.
Car performance has got daft and largely unnecessary, 4wd and DCT gearboxes are part of that, launch control in some of them and 0-60 in three and a bit seconds with zero input required other than press brake and accelerator, then release brake. Its impressive but soon becomes a bit boring.
Its great for numbers for comparing, its technically interesting but its not really asking anything of you as a driver and it has the byproduct of you very soon ending up at ridiculous speed, having become addled by and addicted to acceleration.
For me, for fun road driving, lighter weight, manual box, 250 bhp ish, good feedback and forget what everyone else is doing or has, just focus on your own enjoyment.
Bennet said:
Automatic = faster = better is a poor argument given that it's already widely agreed on PH that outright performance is largely irrelevant to the enjoyment of a car nowadays.
I think the Auto v Manual is a bit like electric v petrol. Faster is not always more fun.
Microwave v BBQ
when was the last time you mate called you up because he was about to switch on the microwave and you should pop round with some cold ones?
MDT said:
Bennet said:
Automatic = faster = better is a poor argument given that it's already widely agreed on PH that outright performance is largely irrelevant to the enjoyment of a car nowadays.
I think the Auto v Manual is a bit like electric v petrol. Faster is not always more fun.
Microwave v BBQ
when was the last time you mate called you up because he was about to switch on the microwave and you should pop round with some cold ones?
xjay1337 said:
many Porsches come highly over geared which sort of makes it pointless.
People say this time and again but the ratios are already so close together you skip intermediate gears in normal driving. Also people say 2nd is too different from 1st - but seriously, how often does anyone use 1st gear once a car is rolling? I certainly don't. These cars will pick-up from 25mph in 6th gear if you ask them to, which doesn't sound like excessively long gearing to me. If you shorten the ratios by changing the differential you'll either render some gears completely redundant or spend so much time changing gears you'll end up going more slowly.
Buy a manual Corvette and you don't need any gear shifting at all. 3rd covers 0 -100 mph. Stick it in 4th and you'll be heading on towards 150 mph with several more gears still in hand...
These modern petrol engines pull from low down and will rev their nuts off (for their capacity) giving a huge range of speed in each gear.
I went auto on the M140i for the following reasons, in no particular order:
1) Most of my driving was A to B, work related stuff, often in heavy traffic.
2) The auto box was brilliant. Smooth and lazy for A to B, but sharp enough in sport mode not to get in the way or be in any way frustrating when enjoying a more spirited drive.
3) The manual gearbox on offer wasn't very good, and not very satisfying to use. Can be improved with mods, but I had no interest in modifying a new car.
Although my experience with our current Mini JCW shows that not all auto boxes are created equal. The Aisin 'box in the Mini is good, but it's not as good as the BMW's ZF unit. Works well on the paddles, and in auto when pottering about, but does some downright weird things in Auto mode in Sport, when driving more enthusiastically. I genuinely believe this car would have been more enjoyable with a manual box, but the other half wasn't having it, and as she was paying for it, it was her shout!
1) Most of my driving was A to B, work related stuff, often in heavy traffic.
2) The auto box was brilliant. Smooth and lazy for A to B, but sharp enough in sport mode not to get in the way or be in any way frustrating when enjoying a more spirited drive.
3) The manual gearbox on offer wasn't very good, and not very satisfying to use. Can be improved with mods, but I had no interest in modifying a new car.
Although my experience with our current Mini JCW shows that not all auto boxes are created equal. The Aisin 'box in the Mini is good, but it's not as good as the BMW's ZF unit. Works well on the paddles, and in auto when pottering about, but does some downright weird things in Auto mode in Sport, when driving more enthusiastically. I genuinely believe this car would have been more enjoyable with a manual box, but the other half wasn't having it, and as she was paying for it, it was her shout!
xjay1337 said:
Not always true.
I don't find in of itself, changing gear "VITAL TO THE DRIVING INTERACTION". I have just as much fun doing some F1 style flappy paddle action.
And yes, I can heel and toe and double declutch and all the other "advanced" stuff, very few cars have gearboxes SO GOOD that it , on balance , makes sense to have the manual. All that does is reduce wear and improve smoothness, which an automatic can do for you
According to how many left for example with the M135i, there are 5.4k Automatics and only 1.8k Manuals.
At the time this was a reasonably cheap, capable, fun, reliable and economical "hot hatch" which had complete angel status with all the car journalists at the time and not only that, but had some amazing lease deals on launch as well.
Combined with buyer demand and I'm sure an element of the "environment" as well, the M140 and M240 were only made with automatics.
How many times do manufacturers make manual gearbox cars for the HARD CORE ENTHUSIASTS but........no-one buys it...
This isn't the 1980s anymore, REAL MEN can drive manuals or automatics and I don't think changing gear is in any way challenging so I don't buy that argument.
Regarding ratios, it is very true that many Porsches come highly over geared which sort of makes it pointless.
Certainly ratios are not "similar" between Porsche manuals and many other models - most petrol manual performance cars have a 2nd gear that tops out around 60mph give or take. To move 2nd up to 80+ mph means that really you only need 3rd gear on most drives.
They are geared in such a way that it only makes sense on large, open race tracks like Portimao , Silverstone, Nurburgring and spa etc. Certainly at a circuit like Cadwell park you'll probably find the gaping chasm between gears a pain in the arse and on the road to actually make use of the gears and powerband you'll be travelling at completely idiotic speeds.
Granny shifting, not double clutching like you should... what are you driving that doesn't have syncros? I don't find in of itself, changing gear "VITAL TO THE DRIVING INTERACTION". I have just as much fun doing some F1 style flappy paddle action.
And yes, I can heel and toe and double declutch and all the other "advanced" stuff, very few cars have gearboxes SO GOOD that it , on balance , makes sense to have the manual. All that does is reduce wear and improve smoothness, which an automatic can do for you
According to how many left for example with the M135i, there are 5.4k Automatics and only 1.8k Manuals.
At the time this was a reasonably cheap, capable, fun, reliable and economical "hot hatch" which had complete angel status with all the car journalists at the time and not only that, but had some amazing lease deals on launch as well.
Combined with buyer demand and I'm sure an element of the "environment" as well, the M140 and M240 were only made with automatics.
How many times do manufacturers make manual gearbox cars for the HARD CORE ENTHUSIASTS but........no-one buys it...
This isn't the 1980s anymore, REAL MEN can drive manuals or automatics and I don't think changing gear is in any way challenging so I don't buy that argument.
Regarding ratios, it is very true that many Porsches come highly over geared which sort of makes it pointless.
Certainly ratios are not "similar" between Porsche manuals and many other models - most petrol manual performance cars have a 2nd gear that tops out around 60mph give or take. To move 2nd up to 80+ mph means that really you only need 3rd gear on most drives.
They are geared in such a way that it only makes sense on large, open race tracks like Portimao , Silverstone, Nurburgring and spa etc. Certainly at a circuit like Cadwell park you'll probably find the gaping chasm between gears a pain in the arse and on the road to actually make use of the gears and powerband you'll be travelling at completely idiotic speeds.
Ultimately its different strokes for different folks. I fully appreciate the DCT and modern autos as I mentioned. They're a great compromise. But you can't argue that they don't make the act of changing gear easier.
The M135i wasn't that well received dynamically if I recall? Very much a fairly ordinary family car with an awesome engine. The M2 is surely the performance variant, though I imagine your point stands that the M2 is also sold mostly as a DCT. But most people who are buying new cars are not enthusiasts, and most of those enthusiast will want their cars to do everything, not just the odd B road blasts and track days, hence a DCT is a great compromise.
I didnt say the ratios were the same, but they certainly aren't as widely varied as the poster I replied to saying that 7 gears DCT equals 3 gears manual. Having 7 ratios vs 6 obviously gives you more scope to move them closer together.
Ultimately I've had fun in DCT cars, I loved the Fabia VRS we had as a pool car. But for ultimate involvement it would need three pedals so I can make a hash of my own gear changes.
Again people confuse opinion with fact
I’m speaking from experience and have formed my opinion on that basis.
Most of my driving is below 80mph
A manual Cayman geared for 177mph is overgeared for my use and the same is probably true for a lot of UK owners.
Talking of a manual being more interactive has to be done in the context of how it is actually used. Changes from 2 to 3 and then 2 again are hardly massive interactions - on the same road a dct might be up to 6th gear with changes thrown in for the hell of it -
Yes pdk/dct/dsg makes gear changes easier but the option of more/better ratios makes the experience more fun in my opinion.
If there’s a great manual option then I’ll certainly consider that but I base decisions on test drives and not on internet postings.
I’m speaking from experience and have formed my opinion on that basis.
Most of my driving is below 80mph
A manual Cayman geared for 177mph is overgeared for my use and the same is probably true for a lot of UK owners.
Talking of a manual being more interactive has to be done in the context of how it is actually used. Changes from 2 to 3 and then 2 again are hardly massive interactions - on the same road a dct might be up to 6th gear with changes thrown in for the hell of it -
Yes pdk/dct/dsg makes gear changes easier but the option of more/better ratios makes the experience more fun in my opinion.
If there’s a great manual option then I’ll certainly consider that but I base decisions on test drives and not on internet postings.
Automatics are faster, allow you to keep both hands on the steering wheel when attacking country lanes, can do the leisurely stop/start stuff when you're not in the mood and don't run the risk of missing a gear on the downshift and lunching the engine.
I've had some good manuals, including an S2000, MX5, 190 Cosworth (dog-leg 1st) - Integrale, Mk1 Mr2. But they're just plain slower than the latest generation of autos.
I'm over manuals so wouldn't even consider one as an option. OTH, give me one of those sequential boxes with the long gear lever - the ones where you push the lever forward for upshifts and downwards for downshifts
I've had some good manuals, including an S2000, MX5, 190 Cosworth (dog-leg 1st) - Integrale, Mk1 Mr2. But they're just plain slower than the latest generation of autos.
I'm over manuals so wouldn't even consider one as an option. OTH, give me one of those sequential boxes with the long gear lever - the ones where you push the lever forward for upshifts and downwards for downshifts
Edited by maz8062 on Thursday 25th June 13:35
maz8062 said:
...But they're just plain slower than the latest generation of autos.
The 'autos are faster' is a nonsense argument for road driving. A few 100ms faster here or there makes next to no difference, what does make a difference to all-out performance is just how reckless and stupid the driver is with regards to keeping their foot-in [on the accelerator].We should remember that lots of people buy based on image.
"I live in a rural village so must have a 4x4."
"I don't like the noisy exhaust with the top down as I can't hear the radio."
"You'd think that the top of the range M model would be a more comfortable ride."
"Must change this soon as the registration is over a year old."
"I would like to take my *** on track but don't want to take it above 3.5k rpm."
I've heard these statements more than once.
Paul G
"I live in a rural village so must have a 4x4."
"I don't like the noisy exhaust with the top down as I can't hear the radio."
"You'd think that the top of the range M model would be a more comfortable ride."
"Must change this soon as the registration is over a year old."
"I would like to take my *** on track but don't want to take it above 3.5k rpm."
I've heard these statements more than once.
Paul G
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