Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

[bcr5784]

Olivera said:

The 'autos are faster' is a nonsense argument for road driving. A few 100ms faster here or there makes next to no difference, what does make a difference to all-out performance is just how reckless and stupid the driver is with regards to keeping their foot-in [on the accelerator].

Well actually is does make a significant difference. It means you can change gear when it would be impossible because of time constraints or simply because you are in a corner and to change gear manually would unsettle the car - which doesn't happen with a smooth auto because there is no interruption in power.

[spikyone]

ZX10R NIN said:

Just ask Toyota how well the GT86 has done vs the Auto only Supra, the paying customers have spoken & people like autos with their performance cars.

The paying customers spoke and Toyota are offering cheap finance deals on the Supra because it didn't sell (£399 a month at 0% vs £399 a month at 4.9% on the GT86); manual GT86s outsold auto by 4:1 (though probably not entirely fair as it's an old-school slushbox). How did you draw that conclusion from those numbers?

[DoubleD]

bcr5784 said:

Olivera said:

The 'autos are faster' is a nonsense argument for road driving. A few 100ms faster here or there makes next to no difference, what does make a difference to all-out performance is just how reckless and stupid the driver is with regards to keeping their foot-in [on the accelerator].

Well actually is does make a significant difference. It means you can change gear when it would be impossible because of time constraints or simply because you are in a corner and to change gear manually would unsettle the car - which doesn't happen with a smooth auto because there is no interruption in power.

I presume that you are talking about driving on a track? It certainly doesnt make a significant difference on the road.

[maz8062]

DoubleD said:

bcr5784 said:

Olivera said:

The 'autos are faster' is a nonsense argument for road driving. A few 100ms faster here or there makes next to no difference, what does make a difference to all-out performance is just how reckless and stupid the driver is with regards to keeping their foot-in [on the accelerator].

Well actually is does make a significant difference. It means you can change gear when it would be impossible because of time constraints or simply because you are in a corner and to change gear manually would unsettle the car - which doesn't happen with a smooth auto because there is no interruption in power.

I presume that you are talking about driving on a track? It certainly doesn't make a significant difference on the road.

It makes a huge difference. I have an old-style 7g gearbox in my Merc. I can approach a roundabout in top gear, pull and hold the downshift paddle and the box will find the most accelerative gear to use through the roundabout. Yes, this can be done in a manual but it is much harder to gauge what would be the best gear - 2nd/3rd? This can all be done without letting go of that spherical object that we like holding on to

[otolith]

maz8062 said:

It makes a huge difference. I have an old-style 7g gearbox in my Merc. I can approach a roundabout in top gear, pull and hold the downshift paddle and the box will find the most accelerative gear to use through the roundabout. Yes, this can be done in a manual but it is much harder to gauge what would be the best gear - 2nd/3rd? This can all be done without letting go of that spherical object that we like holding on to

Imagine how good it will be when you can sit in the back and browse your phone while the car does it all!

[DoubleD]

maz8062 said:

DoubleD said:

bcr5784 said:

Olivera said:

The 'autos are faster' is a nonsense argument for road driving. A few 100ms faster here or there makes next to no difference, what does make a difference to all-out performance is just how reckless and stupid the driver is with regards to keeping their foot-in [on the accelerator].

Well actually is does make a significant difference. It means you can change gear when it would be impossible because of time constraints or simply because you are in a corner and to change gear manually would unsettle the car - which doesn't happen with a smooth auto because there is no interruption in power.

I presume that you are talking about driving on a track? It certainly doesn't make a significant difference on the road.

It makes a huge difference. I have an old-style 7g gearbox in my Merc. I can approach a roundabout in top gear, pull and hold the downshift paddle and the box will find the most accelerative gear to use through the roundabout. Yes, this can be done in a manual but it is much harder to gauge what would be the best gear - 2nd/3rd? This can all be done without letting go of that spherical object that we like holding on to

It doesnt make a huge or a significant difference on the road. Things like potholes, people, other vehicles, speed limits, horses, cyclists, villages........make a significant difference to road driving speed, changing gear mid corner or 20 meters sooner doesn't.

[bcr5784]

DoubleD said:

I presume that you are talking about driving on a track? It certainly doesnt make a significant difference on the road.

No you are simply wrong I'm talking about the road. I have thoroughly enjoyed learning to drive in a different way on the road since I have has my last 2 dual clutch boxes (the only two autos I have owned). Sure the faster changes don't make you significantly faster on a journey though they do, (on occasion) give you overtaking opportunities that you wouldn't have with a manual.

[DoubleD]

bcr5784 said:

DoubleD said:

I presume that you are talking about driving on a track? It certainly doesnt make a significant difference on the road.

No you are simply wrong I'm talking about the road. I have thoroughly enjoyed learning to drive in a different way on the road since I have has my last 2 dual clutch boxes (the only two autos I have owned). Sure the faster changes don't make you significantly faster on a journey though they do, (on occasion) give you overtaking opportunities that you wouldn't have with a manual.

Well we will have to agree to disagree then.

[maz8062]

For me, this is the best sounding auto box that I've heard in a while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNpZeZBaiZ0

I think it's a single-clutch auto

[av185]

For road use there really is no difference in rapidity between a manual and flappy paddle.

Really makes no difference whatsoever on overtaking opportunities either.

[maz8062]

av185 said:

For road use there really is no difference in rapidity between a manual and flappy paddle.

Really makes no difference whatsoever on overtaking opportunities either.

I disagree, some of these DCT gearboxes are super fast. Those BMW M4's for example - the shifts are lightning quick. A manual version wouldn't see which way it went.

[DoubleD]

maz8062 said:

av185 said:

For road use there really is no difference in rapidity between a manual and flappy paddle.

Really makes no difference whatsoever on overtaking opportunities either.

I disagree, some of these DCT gearboxes are super fast. Those BMW M4's for example - the shifts are lightning quick. A manual version wouldn't see which way it went.

Yes, but we are talking about road driving, not track driving.

[Miserablegit]

rockin said:

Miserablegit said:

A manual Cayman geared for 177mph is overgeared

That's about as bright as saying engines that rev over 6000 rpm take all the fun out of driving.

If you have to misquote me to make a point then you instantly fail.
What I said was:

“Most of my driving is below 80mph
A manual Cayman geared for 177mph is overgeared for my use and the same is probably true for a lot of UK owners.”

Your stupidity continues to surprise

[bcr5784]

av185 said:

For road use there really is no difference in rapidity between a manual and flappy paddle.

Really makes no difference whatsoever on overtaking opportunities either.

It will take a second (at very least - probably more) to do an across gate shift from 3rd to second in a manual box. So unless you permanently go around in second on the offchance that an overtaking opportunity will arise there will doubtless be (and are) occasions when a good auto will allow you to overtake safely where you couldn't with a manual simply because you have an extra second to play with.

[otolith]

bcr5784 said:

It will take a second (at very least - probably more) to do an across gate shift from 3rd to second in a manual box. So unless you permanently go around in second on the offchance that an overtaking opportunity will arise there will doubtless be (and are) occasions when a good auto will allow you to overtake safely where you couldn't with a manual simply because you have an extra second to play with.

I think if that makes any difference, you are cutting your overtakes too close.

[nickfrog]

maz8062 said:

I disagree, some of these DCT gearboxes are super fast. Those BMW M4's for example - the shifts are lightning quick. A manual version wouldn't see which way it went.

It would as on the road, the limiting factors tend to be traffic, line of sight and licence/freedom preservation. On the track, the difference will also be small, probably negligible for the average billy.

[996TT02]

otolith said:

bcr5784 said:

It will take a second (at very least - probably more) to do an across gate shift from 3rd to second in a manual box. So unless you permanently go around in second on the offchance that an overtaking opportunity will arise there will doubtless be (and are) occasions when a good auto will allow you to overtake safely where you couldn't with a manual simply because you have an extra second to play with.

I think if that makes any difference, you are cutting your overtakes too close.

You got in before me! So bcr5784 you take zero seconds to assess whether an overtake is 1) do I need to do it 2) do I want to do it 3) possible at all 4) is it safe to do so, that one second preparing for it physically you can't find the time for. Normal people usually allow at least 5 seconds for 1-4, and during those 5 seconds thus occupied it is perfectly possible to also drop down a gear. Shocking but true!

[xjay1337]

maz8062 said:

For me, this is the best sounding auto box that I've heard in a while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNpZeZBaiZ0

I think it's a single-clutch auto

Ooof. 30kph over read and a 100-200 time of nearly 10 seconds! My m135i with a remap would be quicker

This though .... : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YppGvdSV7Hg

[shirt]

maz8062 said:

It makes a huge difference. I have an old-style 7g gearbox in my Merc. I can approach a roundabout in top gear, pull and hold the downshift paddle and the box will find the most accelerative gear to use through the roundabout. Yes, this can be done in a manual but it is much harder to gauge what would be the best gear - 2nd/3rd? This can all be done without letting go of that spherical object that we like holding on to

I don’t agree at all, it’s very easy to gauge what gear you should be in for speed/revs you’re at and how you want the car to respond. You don’t even need to look at the clocks. It’s an absolute fundamental of performance driving and becomes so ingrained that you don’t need to think about it at all.

I bought a slushbox suv precisely because it’s so cosseting for the commute. I have track cars with full sequential boxes. For the road, in a sports car when I’m just wanting to enjoy myself on a decent road and have the feeling of interaction between me and my P&J, it’s manual every time.

I think it’s like books, vinyl (or even cd’s these days), etc. Hard to describe the pleasure of that physical interaction between you and the thing you enjoy doing, but the modern alternative (kindle, on demand streaming, dsg boxes) just takes away some of the pleasure for me. Likely a dying viewpoint, who really cares?

[av185]

bcr5784 said:

av185 said:

For road use there really is no difference in rapidity between a manual and flappy paddle.

Really makes no difference whatsoever on overtaking opportunities either.

It will take a second (at very least - probably more) to do an across gate shift from 3rd to second in a manual box. So unless you permanently go around in second on the offchance that an overtaking opportunity will arise there will doubtless be (and are) occasions when a good auto will allow you to overtake safely where you couldn't with a manual simply because you have an extra second to play with.

A second to change gear manually?

If so you need tuition.

Believe me it makes no difference whatsoever in the same car manual v flappy paddle on the road and overtaking opportunities.

I have a 991.2 GT3 manual and have owned the same car but PDK S which is one of the quickest and best man autos in fact betters the Ferrari 458 and 488 imo.

The other aspect is that the performance on many autos is blunted compared to manual due to more weight and also parasitic losses of the auto box.