Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

[bcr5784]

JPvanRossem said:

Clutches are for dawdlers, though. I raced Formula Fords back in the 90s and remember chatting to Dan Wheldon about how to avoid over revving the engine when the clutch was down on a flat shift. He looked at me slightly puzzled and said, "Why are you using the clutch?" At that point, I realised I had neither his talent, nor his budget to rebuild the gearbox after every race.

Oddly enough (according to Hewland) the important thing is to make the fastest change you can - it causes least damage to the dogs. Certainly my experience was that you certainly didn't need to rebuild the gearbox every race, though you would need some new bits once or twice in the season.

[RobM77]

JPvanRossem said:

Leon R said:

Olivera said:

Leon R said:

Interesting that the flat shifting option on a manual box has been mentioned as surely that is 'less involving' than having to depress the clutch? ...

Afaik the 'flat shifting' refers to keeping the throttle pinned, but you use the clutch as normal.

Yes sorry I worded that horribly. I just meant there is less you have to think about / get right.

Clutches are for dawdlers, though. I raced Formula Fords back in the 90s and remember chatting to Dan Wheldon about how to avoid over revving the engine when the clutch was down on a flat shift. He looked at me slightly puzzled and said, "Why are you using the clutch?" At that point, I realised I had neither his talent, nor his budget to rebuild the gearbox after every race.

If you look on the Hewland website they actually recommend clutchless shifts for their H pattern Formula Ford boxes: it’s kinder to the gearbox. The technique is to put pressure on the gearstick whilst flat down, and then momentarily lift the throttle before flooring it again. The new gear will engage during your lift as the pressure comes off the dog rings.

[bcr5784]

RobM77 said:

If you look on the Hewland website they actually recommend clutchless shifts for their H pattern Formula Ford boxes: it’s kinder to the gearbox. The technique is to put pressure on the gearstick whilst flat down, and then momentarily lift the throttle before flooring it again. The new gear will engage during your lift as the pressure comes off the dog rings.

Racers don't generally lift changing up, except perhaps for a slight lift first to second.

[smartie93]

JPvanRossem said:

Clutches are for dawdlers, though. I raced Formula Fords back in the 90s and remember chatting to Dan Wheldon about how to avoid over revving the engine when the clutch was down on a flat shift. He looked at me slightly puzzled and said, "Why are you using the clutch?" At that point, I realised I had neither his talent, nor his budget to rebuild the gearbox after every race.

Yes clutches are for dawdlers if you have a Hewlands dog box. But I wouldn't suggest doing it on a standard syncromesh gearbox

[anonymous-user]

donkmeister said:

MGF auto was a pulley CVT (Stepspeed) ... faster than the ... manual in cross-country driving as it could stay at peak power whilst the (manual) was moving up and down the power band.

Same reason cars with modern 7, 8 and 10 speed autos are so quick - they're virtually CVT.

These transmissions are particularly well suited for 4-pot turbo engines. And for diesels - which is probably why the transmissions came to exist in the first place. If you've got a limited rev range you can maximise use of the torque by banging in more and faster gear changes.

[RobM77]

bcr5784 said:

RobM77 said:

If you look on the Hewland website they actually recommend clutchless shifts for their H pattern Formula Ford boxes: it’s kinder to the gearbox. The technique is to put pressure on the gearstick whilst flat down, and then momentarily lift the throttle before flooring it again. The new gear will engage during your lift as the pressure comes off the dog rings.

Racers don't generally lift changing up, except perhaps for a slight lift first to second.

Interesting; I was always told the above method and always used it. I flat shifted my Formula Renault, but that had an ignition cut connected to the gear lever. In Formula Fords I always lifted slightly, and it was that lift which engaged the next gear.

[shirt]

our clio has a sadev 6spd sequential. we clutchless flatshift on the way up, but use the clutch and blockshift on the way down, as its much kinder to the box. we're not frontrunners, and its 3.5k euros minimum spend each time you split the casing.

[RobM77]

shirt said:

our clio has a sadev 6spd sequential. we clutchless flatshift on the way up, but use the clutch and blockshift on the way down, as its much kinder to the box. we're not frontrunners, and its 3.5k euros minimum spend each time you split the casing.

Same as my Formula Renault had. It had a rev cut on upshifts.

[bcr5784]

RobM77 said:

Same as my Formula Renault had. It had a rev cut on upshifts.

I'm talking 15 years ago. F3 the same. I would add that my knowledge is from Zetecs (which don't have an ignition cut), can't speak for FF1600

Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 26th June 11:29

[NDNDNDND]

shirt said:

our clio has a sadev 6spd sequential. we clutchless flatshift on the way up, but use the clutch and blockshift on the way down, as its much kinder to the box. we're not frontrunners, and its 3.5k euros minimum spend each time you split the casing.

That's interesting. Why do you block downshift, rather than blip down through the gears sequentially? Is there an advantage in staying in the higher gear longer during the braking phase? Or is the braking phase simply too short to pack in that many gearchanges?

[J4CKO]

xjay1337 said:

J4CKO said:

Not sure would take my M135i on track as its useless on the road when pressing on, the engine is awesome, as a daily its awesome but it just falls apart when you go quickly, needs modifying to shine and there is a superb car in there but for me, the steering and gearbox mean its not worth developing it.

Have enjoyed it but cant wait to change, just not the car for me.

I am largely ambivalent of drive layout, maybe a bit weird but I loved my 225 TT even though it was a pile of st (that example) and found it more engaging than the M135i, probably as it was a manual.

May be just me being an old fart at 49 stuck in my ways !

I have a readers ride of mine on here.

Suspension wise its got only some camber top mounts and Bilstein coilovers and a few easily installed bushes.
Pagid Rs29 pads and a CSF oil cooler.

Engine is stock cos warranty.
Gearbox has XHP software. But factory software was pretty good.

I really enjoy it myself. The camber alone has increased steering feel and decent tyres and alignment make it really pointy at the front. In fact this weekend im changing to 245 35 all round!

The main issue with a completely stock car is the rebound damping and odd spring rates, at lower speeds with a single occupant on a bumpy road (typical BMW Problem) which would not be an issue on a smooth race track :-)

Interesting you find the TT225 better. I've driven one and it had less steering feel (IMO) than the BMW! Very dull at the front end. Maybe if the BMW was a manual, eh :-)

Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 25th June 22:28

I think you may be right on that last point, I think thats the bulk of it as the suspension is easily and fairly cheaply sorted.

Everyone said auto at the time, and was having foot problems as well so made sense, but think it must be just I want a manual.

Annoyed at myself for not having a quick shot in my mates M135i which is a manual, and he lives in Southampton so not and easy option.

I find the ZF8 sometimes holds onto gears too long after you back off so its revving its tits off, do you notice that ?

[cerb4.5lee]

J4CKO said:

Everyone said auto at the time, and was having foot problems as well so made sense, but think it must be just I want a manual.

I completely understand where you are coming from. I had auto only cars for 4 years and I missed having a manual gearbox so much. I now have 2 manuals and 1 auto and the extra satisfaction I get from using a manual gearbox is incredible for me. I feel that a car with an automatic gearbox is just missing such a vital ingredient.

For ease of use/heavy stop-start traffic(and when you are feeling lazy), and for outright performance you can't beat an automatic, but if you want some involvement you just can't beat 3 pedals and a stick for me.

[RobM77]

cerb4.5lee said:

J4CKO said:

Everyone said auto at the time, and was having foot problems as well so made sense, but think it must be just I want a manual.

I completely understand where you are coming from. I had auto only cars for 4 years and I missed having a manual gearbox so much. I now have 2 manuals and 1 auto and the extra satisfaction I get from using a manual gearbox is incredible for me. I feel that a car with an automatic gearbox is just missing such a vital ingredient.

For ease of use/heavy stop-start traffic(and when you are feeling lazy), and for outright performance you can't beat an automatic, but if you want some involvement you just can't beat 3 pedals and a stick for me.

I don't mind auto for my daily, but there is absolutely no way I'd want an auto in any other sort of car, especially a fun car for tracks or weekends.

By the way, Harry Metcalfe uploaded a video on a manual F430 the other day. I had no idea they even made them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu1ux4_qPwY

[cerb4.5lee]

RobM77 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

J4CKO said:

Everyone said auto at the time, and was having foot problems as well so made sense, but think it must be just I want a manual.

I completely understand where you are coming from. I had auto only cars for 4 years and I missed having a manual gearbox so much. I now have 2 manuals and 1 auto and the extra satisfaction I get from using a manual gearbox is incredible for me. I feel that a car with an automatic gearbox is just missing such a vital ingredient.

For ease of use/heavy stop-start traffic(and when you are feeling lazy), and for outright performance you can't beat an automatic, but if you want some involvement you just can't beat 3 pedals and a stick for me.

I don't mind auto for my daily, but there is absolutely no way I'd want an auto in any other sort of car, especially a fun car for tracks or weekends.

By the way, Harry Metcalfe uploaded a video on a manual F430 the other day. I had no idea they even made them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu1ux4_qPwY

Thanks for the heads up regarding the video. I watched it the other day and I really enjoyed it, there is something really special about an open gated manual for sure.

[av185]

RobM77 said:

Leon R said:

Interesting that the flat shifting option on a manual box has been mentioned as surely that is 'less involving' than having to depress the clutch? Same goes for manuals with auto throttle blip.

Yep, I wouldn’t want either. Like many people, I learnt to rev match and heel and toe aged 17 so it’s just part of my driving - I don’t think I could cope with an auto blip. As for flat shifting, well I simply enjoy using a manual box, so I don’t know why I’d want that.

Whoever posted you don't have to depress the clutch when flatshifting is wrong, you do..so there is no lack of interaction.

The other aspect to this is the flatshift is purely an option and in the case of the GT3 the car will accept this on the upchanges without programming or the need for pressing a button.

Regarding the auto throttle blip again this is optional and in the case of the Porsche GT is activated by simply depressing a switch for those who prefer this to h and t ing.

Perfectly possible to manually heel and toe too which is how I drive most of the time.

[bcr5784]

av185 said:

Whoever posted you don't have to depress the clutch when flatshifting is wrong, you do..so there is no lack of interaction.

True with a synchro box. You can only flat shift without lifting the clutch with a dog box - and they are pretty thin on the ground on road cars. And it's so brutal I doubt many would do it on a road car. Quite common on bikes with quick shifters.

[NewUsername]

Raygun said:

For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?

Because that's what they want.


Personally i'd have a manual for a weekend fun car.

[thatdude]

bcr5784 said:

True with a synchro box. You can only flat shift without lifting the clutch with a dog box - and they are pretty thin on the ground on road cars. And it's so brutal I doubt many would do it on a road car. Quite common on bikes with quick shifters.

Similarly, on a bike not equipped with an ignition cut-out, you can upshift clutchlessly by momentarily rolling off the throttle as you select the next year. Also similarly, you hold a bit of pressure on the gear lever before lifting off and selecting the gear.

Back when world supersport was a big thing, they wernt allowed quickshifters - they had an ignition cut-out wired into what would normally be the button for the horn. Press button and upshift at the same time, never roll off the throttle!

Personally I dont like to do clutchless upshifts, I dont think I can time the lifting of the thottle load well enough, but if I had a well sorted quickshifter - or even better, a modern bike already fitted with a quickshifter, it'd make things to much smoother.

[J4CKO]

Was pondering this last night with the mention of bikes.

Aside from mopeds and other sub motorbikes, are there any big bikes with auto gearboxes ?

I quite like my Trek Road bike as its sequential manual, its just that the engine, though quite large doesn't have a massive power output and the emissions arent great

We go on about interaction on here, try a road bike, dont get much more interactive than that, steering is pretty direct.

[bcr5784]

J4CKO said:

Was pondering this last night with the mention of bikes.

Aside from mopeds and other sub motorbikes, are there any big bikes with auto gearboxes ?

I quite like my Trek Road bike as its sequential manual, its just that the engine, though quite large doesn't have a massive power output and the emissions arent great

We go on about interaction on here, try a road bike, dont get much more interactive than that, steering is pretty direct.

You can get a dual clutch automatic on a Honda Goldwing. And there are a few more here https://www.cycleworld.com/top-automatic-motorcycl...