Why did people spec auto on performance cars?
Discussion
bcr5784 said:
SidewaysSi said:
Yep. Fun can be had in every car if you look for it.
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Yes but "fun" can't generally be had on most long motorway journeys - leastways not at vaguely legal speeds. The M25 and fun are pretty much incompatible..
SidewaysSi said:
Depends on the car...Having something with a silly exhaust and properly communicative steering makes a massive difference. Even pootling at 70mph on the M25 in an Elise strapped in with a harness and listening to an exhaust pop and bang is fun.
Interesting. I call that annoying.I had a stripped out car with buckets and harnesses. Great on a back road but incredibly annoying day to day.
I have both & both are fun...but more important to me is Hydraulic steering Vs Electric steering///I cannot abide electric steering, if I could change the DSG car to Hydraulic it would ,imo, be a 50% improvement...thats what you call driver involvement.
I have driven all gearboxes , 32 rang change boxes with half splitters in & 8 reverse ratios so gearboxes are of no consequence but steering feel is!
I have driven all gearboxes , 32 rang change boxes with half splitters in & 8 reverse ratios so gearboxes are of no consequence but steering feel is!
Gerradi said:
I have both & both are fun...but more important to me is Hydraulic steering Vs Electric steering///I cannot abide electric steering, if I could change the DSG car to Hydraulic it would ,imo, be a 50% improvement...thats what you call driver involvement.
I have driven all gearboxes , 32 rang change boxes with half splitters in & 8 reverse ratios so gearboxes are of no consequence but steering feel is!
You should try a car with no power steering if you want feel.I have driven all gearboxes , 32 rang change boxes with half splitters in & 8 reverse ratios so gearboxes are of no consequence but steering feel is!
Raygun said:
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
95% of my driving is in traffic, so auto is the only sensible option.Pretty straightforward.
I had a Porsche 928 GTS manual for a few years - a rare car, but the worst aspect was the gearbox. The clutch was very heavy (my wife refused to drive it), terrible drive drain shunt (apparently typical of the model) and dog leg first (never really got used to it). I think the reality of manual gearboxes with large engines, especially when combined with a transaxle is less than stellar. I can now see why people ordered the auto and I would defintely go auto if I got another 928.
c2mike said:
I had a Porsche 928 GTS manual for a few years - a rare car, but the worst aspect was the gearbox. The clutch was very heavy (my wife refused to drive it), terrible drive drain shunt (apparently typical of the model) and dog leg first (never really got used to it). I think the reality of manual gearboxes with large engines, especially when combined with a transaxle is less than stellar. I can now see why people ordered the auto and I would defintely go auto if I got another 928.
Whereas the clutch in my 928S4 is as light as that in our i30. I’ve used it for commuting in rush hour with no problems, and not noticed any driveline shunt. The gearbox is a cinch to use albeit with long travel and can be a little vague if I skip gears - such as 4->2 or 5->3. Otherwise go through the gears in sequence and it’s great. A big engine gives the combination of low end torque and high end power which means you can leave it in third everywhere or work it for fun. It’s such little effort to change gear, I really don’t get why you’d want an auto. Those that think of it as a cruiser would be surprised at how well it can be hustled, and the fun available in doing so.iphonedyou said:
Raygun said:
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
95% of my driving is in traffic, so auto is the only sensible option.Off Topic - when Aston Martin introduced the twin supercharged Vantage in the 90s the only gearbox they could find to take the power was the six speed manual in the Corvette ZR1. Some customers asked for automatics but were told there was no auto option because there wasn't an automatic gearbox strong enough. Some customers insisted; they always had autos in their Astons. The autos AML reluctantly fitted were from the Virage the Vantage was based on. Some of the gearboxes failed as AML predicted. The customers came back and had their gearboxes replaced under warranty. Some customers came back again for another gearbox only to be told the warranty had run out. The customers said ah yes but the gearbox is fairly new and were told ah yes but it was the car that was under warranty not the replacement gearbox.
Gerradi said:
I have driven all gearboxes , 32 rang change boxes with half splitters in & 8 reverse ratios so gearboxes are of no consequence but steering feel is!
Anyone who has driven a serious kart will know that you just don't need a gearbox to have an intoxicating drive. If you absolutely need a gearbox to keep you occupied it's because the chassis isn't talking to you enough. If an auto car is boring it's because the chassis is boring. As the rather interesting guy on "Engineering Explained" said - if steam or electric power had been developed before the ICE, and a manufacturer came along and tried to justify the need for half a dozen gears with his ICE, it would have been regarded as a very backward step.
Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 28th June 08:43
bcr5784 said:
Anyone who has driven a serious kart will know that you just don't need a gearbox to have an intoxicating drive. If you absolutely need a gearbox to keep you occupied it's because the chassis isn't talking to you enough. If an auto car is boring it's because the chassis is boring.
As the rather interesting guy on "Engineering Explained" said - if steam or electric power had been developed before the ICE, and a manufacturer came along and tried to justify the need for half a dozen gears with his ICE, it would have been regarded as a very backward step.
Erm. Maybe I’m due a whoosh parrot here but steam engines and electric motors were both invented before the internal combustion engine...As the rather interesting guy on "Engineering Explained" said - if steam or electric power had been developed before the ICE, and a manufacturer came along and tried to justify the need for half a dozen gears with his ICE, it would have been regarded as a very backward step.
Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 28th June 08:43
Gad-Westy said:
Erm. Maybe I’m due a whoosh parrot here but steam engines and electric motors were both invented before the internal combustion engine...
But they never got developed to the extent that they were the dominant propulsion. Battery technology wasn't up to it and neither was steam technology. xjay1337 said:
SidewaysSi said:
Depends on the car...Having something with a silly exhaust and properly communicative steering makes a massive difference. Even pootling at 70mph on the M25 in an Elise strapped in with a harness and listening to an exhaust pop and bang is fun.
Interesting. I call that annoying.I had a stripped out car with buckets and harnesses. Great on a back road but incredibly annoying day to day.
Just need to watch out for speed bumps but otherwise it works for me. And these cars can be parked anywhere as people don't get jealous, they just think you are a t
t...
SidewaysSi said:
Depends on the car...Having something with a silly exhaust and properly communicative steering makes a massive difference. Even pootling at 70mph on the M25 in an Elise strapped in with a harness and listening to an exhaust pop and bang is fun.
I wouldn't want to pootle at 70 on the M25 in an Elise!I feel pretty vulnerable on motorways in a BMW Z4 mainly because it is low, but an Elise is low, smaller and much of it is not made of metal - not a car I'd choose for motorways.
Although I do suspect pootling+ at slightly higher speed might feel a bit less vulnerable.
Mr Tidy said:
much of it is not made of metal - not a car I'd choose for motorways.
Err.. The bits that aren't metal (the bodywork) aren't structural. The structure in an Elise, like a TVR or indeed many current hypercars and supercars, is in a strong tub chassis, stronger than most monocoque cars in fact.RobM77 said:
rr.. The bits that aren't metal (the bodywork) aren't structural. The structure in an Elise, like a TVR or indeed many current hypercars and supercars, is in a strong tub chassis, stronger than most monocoque cars in fact.
The sills are pretty robust. I wouldn't want to be hit by anything that came over that, though.Even with the rollover bar and the door bar in place (missing from first photo) there isn't a great deal of protection above your hips.
It's not something I lose sleep about, but it's definitely not a vehicle in which I would want to be hit by something tall and heavy.
Only my opinion but how often do you drive your performance car in a performance manner. As mine is my only car probably about 5% of the time. 5% is probably being generous.
With U.K. traffic being pretty much constant congestion. Then add in an over zealous state enforcement of speed limits and any kind of fun as danger, then in reality that 5% is still not really deriving any benefit of a manual. Then what is the smart option.
95% of the time an auto is the best option for the driving I’m doing. If I had the funds and I lived near some inspirational driving roads I would have a manual 3.5 Exige in the garage and be out mega early in the morning for a blast. Unfortunately I don’t.
With U.K. traffic being pretty much constant congestion. Then add in an over zealous state enforcement of speed limits and any kind of fun as danger, then in reality that 5% is still not really deriving any benefit of a manual. Then what is the smart option.
95% of the time an auto is the best option for the driving I’m doing. If I had the funds and I lived near some inspirational driving roads I would have a manual 3.5 Exige in the garage and be out mega early in the morning for a blast. Unfortunately I don’t.
MB140 said:
Only my opinion but how often do you drive your performance car in a performance manner. As mine is my only car probably about 5% of the time. 5% is probably being generous.
With U.K. traffic being pretty much constant congestion. Then add in an over zealous state enforcement of speed limits and any kind of fun as danger, then in reality that 5% is still not really deriving any benefit of a manual. Then what is the smart option.
95% of the time an auto is the best option for the driving I’m doing. If I had the funds and I lived near some inspirational driving roads I would have a manual 3.5 Exige in the garage and be out mega early in the morning for a blast. Unfortunately I don’t.
I personally don't need to be going quickly to get enjoyment from a manual gearbox. I just enjoy the process of dipping the clutch and rowing the gears, and I always miss that aspect whenever I drive a car with only 2 pedals. With U.K. traffic being pretty much constant congestion. Then add in an over zealous state enforcement of speed limits and any kind of fun as danger, then in reality that 5% is still not really deriving any benefit of a manual. Then what is the smart option.
95% of the time an auto is the best option for the driving I’m doing. If I had the funds and I lived near some inspirational driving roads I would have a manual 3.5 Exige in the garage and be out mega early in the morning for a blast. Unfortunately I don’t.
If I'm in heavy stop/start traffic though, then I do find an auto a benefit for sure.
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