Why did people spec auto on performance cars?
Discussion
If you've got more torque you need a stronger clutch and get a heavier pedal - unless you opt for a 3 foot diameter clutch or a foot of pedal travel. You'll never get McLaren power through a Honda Jazz clutch. It's part of the reason there are so few high performance manuals these days.
https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/driv...
https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/driv...
rockin said:
If you've got more torque you need a stronger clutch and get a heavier pedal - unless you opt for a 3 foot diameter clutch or a foot of pedal travel. You'll never get McLaren power through a Honda Jazz clutch. It's part of the reason there are so few high performance manuals these days.
https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/driv...
Its more a case of what buyers want now as most cars are less focused buyers want the easiest option. Just another example of dilution I suppose.https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/driv...
The Ford GT and Carrera GT (V10 over 600 bhp) were both manual as was the 2010 997 GT2 RS with 620 bhp and 700nm torque.
Edited by av185 on Thursday 2nd July 22:12
rockin said:
If you've got more torque you need a stronger clutch and get a heavier pedal - unless you opt for a 3 foot diameter clutch or a foot of pedal travel. You'll never get McLaren power through a Honda Jazz clutch. It's part of the reason there are so few high performance manuals these days.
https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/driv...
You're right but some clutches are ridiculously heavy for no reason. https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/driv...
My Scirocco for example had a Helix 6 paddle cerametallic clutch disc with a SMF and billet pressure plate. It was 240mm in diameter and rated for 500ft lb. Although it's capable of doing more, that's the official limit.
It wasn't heavy to use "normally" - IE changing gear and driving, even in traffic from time to time. I really enjoyed the gearbox on that car - I also had quickshifter kit and full shift-bushing and insert change. So one the move it's lovely.
But when you're moving 10 meters every 90 seconds it's incredibly annoying to use and just hurts your leg , it's literally a complete pain in the arse . Again it's fine when you're not shattered but when you've done 3 or 4 hours of driving at track pace combined with a then 240 mile drive home the last thing you want is a manual gearbox in a traffic jam.
That is my point of where a manual gearbox absolutely f
king sucks to be honest and in some cases can completely ruin the fun of the day. when I think back to that day all I remember was my leg/knee absolutely killing me for about 3 days after. (i do have a dicky knee from a motorcycle accident anyway) With your explanation I guess thats why some modern cars are automatic only - makes a lot of sense
@ AV185
Clutch feel is very personal I agree. I've never driven any manual Porsche so I have no idea what is good or bad
I hate a "smooshy" clutch though, that doesn't come up quickly enough or seems to drag on application - I would prefer one that's more "springy" and comes back quickly and has a nice positive action.
Like you say it's probably very specific to the use cases where initially people wanted the very "positive" and heavy clutch action but then I suspect a bulk of the owners who bought the manual car perhaps weren't expecting or used to a proper performance clutch ... so perhaps that's why Porsche went completely opposite? Who knows - maybe one day I'll be able to find out
Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 2nd July 22:14
cerb4.5lee said:
CRA1G said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Mr Tidy said:
I wouldn't want a C350!
And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Nor is a Z4 And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Thursday 2nd July 01:11
Especially cerb4.5lee who seems to be a multiple BMW diesel tractor owner!
I like N/A petrol engines with manual gearboxes - but they obviously don't suit everyone.
Buy whatever you like, but don't post details on here if you don't want to get abuse from people like this.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Friday 3rd July 02:57
Mr Tidy said:
cerb4.5lee said:
CRA1G said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Mr Tidy said:
I wouldn't want a C350!
And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Nor is a Z4 And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Thursday 2nd July 01:11
Especially cerb4.5lee who seems to be a multiple BMW diesel tractor owner!
I like N/A petrol engines with manual gearboxes - but they obviously don't suit everyone.
Buy whatever you like, but don't post details on here if you don't want to get abuse from people like this.
I've always commented on how much I like your Z4MC when you've posted a pic of it.
I'm also a fan of a N/A engine with a manual gearbox and like you I love my 370Z.
I am also guilty of having too many tractor engines over the years though I agree!
Mr Tidy said:
cerb4.5lee said:
CRA1G said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Mr Tidy said:
I wouldn't want a C350!
And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Nor is a Z4 And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Thursday 2nd July 01:11
Especially cerb4.5lee who seems to be a multiple BMW diesel tractor owner!
I like N/A petrol engines with manual gearboxes - but they obviously don't suit everyone.
Buy whatever you like, but don't post details on here if you don't want to get abuse from people like this.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Friday 3rd July 02:57
Leon R said:
Mr Tidy said:
cerb4.5lee said:
CRA1G said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Mr Tidy said:
I wouldn't want a C350!
And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Nor is a Z4 And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Thursday 2nd July 01:11
Especially cerb4.5lee who seems to be a multiple BMW diesel tractor owner!
I like N/A petrol engines with manual gearboxes - but they obviously don't suit everyone.
Buy whatever you like, but don't post details on here if you don't want to get abuse from people like this.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Friday 3rd July 02:57
Hurtling into a roundabout the other day, being pushed along by a newish M3, we were baulked in the roundabout by a shortest-route-through numpty and set off again from a much lower speed than expected. My car chose a lower gear all on its own but I suspect, as I opened up a substantial gap, the M3 pilote didn't. Tickled me no end.
All terribly childish. But good.
Driving gods with manuals please note: your divinity can depend on you being in the right gear.
All terribly childish. But good.
Driving gods with manuals please note: your divinity can depend on you being in the right gear.
DickyC said:
Hurtling into a roundabout the other day, being pushed along by a newish M3, we were baulked in the roundabout by a shortest-route-through numpty and set off again from a much lower speed than expected. My car chose a lower gear all on its own but I suspect, as I opened up a substantial gap, the M3 pilote didn't. Tickled me no end.
All terribly childish. But good.
People with manuals please note: your divinity can depend on you being in the right gear.
If you are having fun then thats all that really matters. Personally I would have been having more fun doing the gears myself. All terribly childish. But good.
People with manuals please note: your divinity can depend on you being in the right gear.
DoubleD said:
If you are having fun then thats all that really matters. Personally I would have been having more fun doing the gears myself.
There is slightly more to it in my case. I wanted a project car that my wife would drive if she had to and she has only driven an automatic for nearly twenty years. An elderly AMG provided the solution. My daily is almost invariably manual.cerb4.5lee said:
It was only a bit of gentle ribbing Mr Tidy!
I've always commented on how much I like your Z4MC when you've posted a pic of it.
I'm also a fan of a N/A engine with a manual gearbox and like you I love my 370Z.
I am also guilty of having too many tractor engines over the years though I agree!
Hold my I've always commented on how much I like your Z4MC when you've posted a pic of it.
I'm also a fan of a N/A engine with a manual gearbox and like you I love my 370Z.
I am also guilty of having too many tractor engines over the years though I agree!
I'm about to get all offended WHAT'S WRONG WITH HAVING A DIESEL they're great at what they do especially in 3.0d & above form.
Anyway if you really want a proper manual & N/A setup then you should all get a motorbike!!!!!!!!!!
If you prefer a manual to a good DSG/auto nowadays you are probably subscribing to the strangely popular belief that it is ‘more involving’.
Im 100% involved when I’m driving at any time. Why you wouldn’t want easier/faster access to gear selection with DSG over manual escapes me entirely.
Im 100% involved when I’m driving at any time. Why you wouldn’t want easier/faster access to gear selection with DSG over manual escapes me entirely.
Easier yes more satisfying no.
And as previously mentiined for road use there is really no difference in performance and rapidity between the same car with a good semi auto and one with a manual gearbox.
But as the manual requires far more skill to extract the best from the car this is where the obvious challenge, enjoyment and ultimately any major differences in road performance will be between the two cars, driver dependent.
Given the same cars on the same roads, a good driver in a manual will always be literally streets ahead of a so so driver in a semi auto.
And as previously mentiined for road use there is really no difference in performance and rapidity between the same car with a good semi auto and one with a manual gearbox.
But as the manual requires far more skill to extract the best from the car this is where the obvious challenge, enjoyment and ultimately any major differences in road performance will be between the two cars, driver dependent.
Given the same cars on the same roads, a good driver in a manual will always be literally streets ahead of a so so driver in a semi auto.
Edited by av185 on Friday 3rd July 13:00
Edited by av185 on Friday 3rd July 13:01
otolith said:
robbo_64 said:
Why you wouldn’t want easier/faster access to gear selection with DSG over manual escapes me entirely.
Also quicker and easier.
I always rate Henry Catchpoles excellent analogy for manual v auto.
Manual gearboxes are interesting and satisfying like quality fresh coffee whereas semi auto are like instant coffee meh quick easy and forgettable.
robbo_64 said:
If you prefer a manual to a good DSG/auto nowadays you are probably subscribing to the strangely popular belief that it is ‘more involving’.
Im 100% involved when I’m driving at any time. Why you wouldn’t want easier/faster access to gear selection with DSG over manual escapes me entirely.
You have answered the question yourself as to why some find manuals more involving, they are not as easy as just pressing a button to change gear. Im 100% involved when I’m driving at any time. Why you wouldn’t want easier/faster access to gear selection with DSG over manual escapes me entirely.
cerb4.5lee said:
Leon R said:
Mr Tidy said:
cerb4.5lee said:
CRA1G said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Mr Tidy said:
I wouldn't want a C350!
And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Nor is a Z4 And it isn't a performance car anyway.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Thursday 2nd July 01:11
Especially cerb4.5lee who seems to be a multiple BMW diesel tractor owner!
I like N/A petrol engines with manual gearboxes - but they obviously don't suit everyone.
Buy whatever you like, but don't post details on here if you don't want to get abuse from people like this.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Friday 3rd July 02:57
I probably do get a bit carried away with it as I've only had it 6 months and it's by far the most exciting car I've ever had.
So apologies for any over-enthusiasm.
Hopefully nobody will post about throttle response or trying to tell me why I should have bought a Subaru Legacy.
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