RE: TVR seeks £25m investment to secure future

[Equus]

Venturist said:

You’re inciting him to willy wave so that you can then laugh at him for willy waving.

Not at all.

There's something not quite right about ddom, and I'm not the only one to have noticed it.

We've already established, I think, that his actual experience of TVR is a brief drive in a single example.

It was he that went to great pains to push me into disclosing my experience and current sportscar ownership. Had he not done so, then the issue of his own experience would never have been raised. Since I answered his question clearly and without obfuscation, it's only fair that he should be willing to respond in kind.

[so called]

Equus said:

If I show you mine, will you show me yours?

I have always made it perfectly clear that my dislike of the cars is based on having owned one. Swisstoni's earlier comments acknowledge that.

Unlike some people, I wouldn't even comment about a marque I have little or no direct knowledge of.

Still no response to the suggestion that you are here in breach of a ban?

Well there's a joke right there.
You previously stated that you owned a Griffith.
You've commented on the Smolenski era cars when clearly you have little or no knowledge of them.
If you had owned one you would know the difference and know that the loud and clear message in the TVR forum is that the 2005/2006 cars/engines were far better build quality.

Equus said:

I didn't attach much weight to the fact that your Tuscan was surrounded by breakdowns. I took the point as being that the location was given as South of France, on the way to Spain, and that that was somehow proof that the cars are reliable.

It is disingenuous in the extreme to make such a suggestion, whilst failing to mention the two engine rebuilds at 35K intervals...
.
Whether or not the Smolensky era cars have satisfactory engine reliability is open to question, not least since production numbers were so small that the statistics become meaningless, but it would be equally disingenuous to suggest that they are entirely reliable.

Its disingenuous in the extreme to imply that the Tuscan in the photo has had 2 rebuilds.
I explained very clearly to you that it was the mk1 that had had the rebuilds.
Your little knowledge doesn't go as far as being able to tell the difference?

Your the one throwing insults, Your hilarious.

Edited by so called on Tuesday 30th June 15:55

[Equus]

so called said:

You previously stated that you owned a Griffith.
You've commented on the Smolenski era cars when clearly you have little or no knowledge of them.
If you had owned one you would know the difference and know that the loud and clear message in the TVR forum is that the 2005/2006 cars/engines were far better build quality.

As I said, I've driven most of the Speed 6 generation cars.

No, I haven't owned one, because my assessment after driving them (and on the basis of my ownership of the Griffith) was that regardless of the Speed 6 reliability issues, their handing and road behavior was still well below the standards I would have been willing to accept.

Yes, I'm aware that the the 2005/2006 engines had much better build standards.

'Better' does not mean 'acceptable', though, and we both know that even the later engines are not immune to failure. As I said, they were also built in such small numbers that it really doesn't matter, anyway.

Not sure about build quality of the cars overall - I attended a dealer day (at Sandwell Park Golf Club the Belfry, IIRC) during the Smolenski era when literally every single dealer car available for test drive was showing some fault or other (mainly electrical/dash)... despite, one would hope, having been prepped by the dealers for the event.

edit: no, it was the Belfry, come to think of it.

Edited by Equus on Tuesday 30th June 19:23

[Dalamar]

Forgive my ignorance but why couldn't TVR start up again as a smaller enterprise, making a small number of cars per year and then grow the business as they get the orders?

It seems to me that they are taking the go-large or go-home mentality which might end up with no new TVRs.

Is it because they need to secure agreements with such suppliers as Ford with promises of volume production?

As a Chimaera owner I really want them to succeed and for there to be a new car to aspire to someday.

[Equus]

Dalamar said:

Forgive my ignorance but why couldn't TVR start up again as a smaller enterprise, making a small number of cars per year and then grow the business as they get the orders?

I think the main reason is that it's virtually impossible to make a car business work on very low volumes, at the sort of price range that people would be willing to pay for a TVR.

As your volumes go down, your unit costs go up, so you very quickly find yourself competing against the likes of Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari and McLaren, whose quality, dynamic capability and, let's be honest, prestige are all on a whole different level.

Remember that one of Smolenski's ideas was that production of each individual model would be limited in numbers (I can't remember the figure now - was it 500 cars max for each model?), and that was with an established production facility and rolling chassis to clothe.

[so called]

Equus said:

so called said:

You previously stated that you owned a Griffith.
You've commented on the Smolenski era cars when clearly you have little or no knowledge of them.
If you had owned one you would know the difference and know that the loud and clear message in the TVR forum is that the 2005/2006 cars/engines were far better build quality.

As I said, I've driven most of the Speed 6 generation cars.

No, I haven't owned one, because my assessment after driving them (and on the basis of my ownership of the Griffith) was that regardless of the Speed 6 reliability issues, their handing and road behavior was still well below the standards I would have been willing to accept.

Yes, I'm aware that the the 2005/2006 engines had much better build standards.

'Better' does not mean 'acceptable', though, and we both know that even the later engines are not immune to failure. As I said, they were also built in such small numbers that it really doesn't matter, anyway.

Not sure about build quality of the cars overall - I attended a dealer day (at Sandwell Park Golf Club, IIRC) during the Smolenski era when literally every single dealer car available for test drive was showing some fault or other (mainly electrical/dash)... despite, one would hope, having been prepped by the dealers for the event.

What the juddering f##k has quantity got to do with reliability.

OK, apart from the 9 annual round trips to Spain, my current Tuscan has also done around 32 round trips to northern Germany.
No rebuild, engine still in good order, just 84K miles of driving pleasure, many of which have been 'hard' miles.
Seems pretty acceptable to me.
Considering the weaknesses of the original 'out of factory' S6 engines and having experienced the before and after first hand I deem 'much better' to be acceptable.

[Equus]

so called said:

What the juddering f##k has quantity got to do with reliability.

Because it's really pretty pointless telling people that they should buy one of the 2006 cars, if they want reliability, when there are scarcely any available to buy.

I'm glad that your personal S6 has been reliable for you, but one swallow doesn't make a summer... I've owned 3 K-series engined cars over many tens of thousands of miles and have never suffered a head gasket failure, but I'm not so delusional as to go around telling people that HGF is a fallacy.

[Monkeylegend]

I remember having a conversation about buying a Tuscan from a well known Suffolk dealer, and they advised me to steer clear of anything with a Speed 6 engine. They were most uncomplimentary about them saying they were costing them money for all the warranty work needed.

Glad I did, I ended up with a Griffith.

[so called]

Equus said:

so called said:

What the juddering f##k has quantity got to do with reliability.

Because it's really pretty pointless telling people that they should buy one of the 2006 cars, if they want reliability, when there are scarcely any available to buy.

I'm glad that your personal S6 has been reliable for you, but one swallow doesn't make a summer... I've owned 3 K-series engined cars over many tens of thousands of miles and have never suffered a head gasket failure, but I'm not so delusional as to go around telling people that HGF is a fallacy.

If someone is looking to buy a 2005/2006 T-car they will want to know what the engines like regardless of how many are available.
That's a nonsense statement.

I think I've mentioned to you previously that I'm not delusional.
I made it clear I had experienced problems with my first S6.
I have experienced the good and bad of TVR with Wedge , Chimaera , , Cerbera and Tuscan , ownership.
You had a bad time with a Griff by the sound of it.

[Cold]

This thread has turned into a good analogy of TVR's current fortunes. What an ugly mess.

[Equus]

so called said:

You had a bad time with a Griff by the sound of it.

In terms of reliability, the Griffith was actually not bad (at least by the standards of a serial 1960's Lotus owner).

Apart from a propensity to blow exhaust manifold gaskets (a common problem on the 5 litre, and a bd to replace due to tight access), occasionally boiling over for no good reason (I suspect it had an airlock somewhere that I never managed to purge), and killing a clutch, once, I don't recall any particular issues.

The steering and handling were almost comically bad, though, and after setting it up myself, then getting it checked over by a TVR specialist ("TADTS - it's as good as they get"), I started to delve into the geometry and chassis problems and quickly came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth wasting any more of my life on. Did a straight swap for an Elise Sport 160.

Lovely shape, lovely noise, lousy engineering, The phrase 'turd rolled in glitter' could have been coined for them.

Probably OK as a GT car, in fairness, provided you don't want to drive too quickly.

Edited by Equus on Tuesday 30th June 20:01

[Pete Mac]

You know, I so much wanted to like this car but I saw it in the flesh (was it 2 years ago or 3?) at the Goodwood Revival and I'm afraid it looks no better in the flesh and in those 2 (or 3) years it appears to have made little progress as it was a viable prototype then.

This is a really risky venture as others have commented, the market is crowded with struggling competitors that look a lot better and would seem to be more viable so that bond issue looks very risky.

I hate being so negative, I'm sure its a great car to drive but as I recall it was priced around the £100k. mark there are so much better cars to buy both new and second hand for that sort of money and 2 (or 3) years is a long time to be sitting on your hands and time moves on quickly and the world changes.

Having said that, I own two Griff 500s myself and I wish Les Edgar and his team all the very best as I was hoping to see TVR back on its feet again.

Pete

[Pro Bono]

Considering the risk involved, the interest rate of 8.25% p.a. being offered on the bonds doesn't seem that generous.

It's `interesting' that they're launching the bonds in Dublin, presumably in the belief that the Irish enjoy a flutter!

They might have been better launching it on the Albanian stock exchange (assuming they have one), as the Albanians defintely do have an appetite for risk - https://acgc.cipe.org/business-of-integrity-blog/a...

Sadly, as I would have liked to see TVR succeed, I'm not sure these bonds would even qualify as junk status.

[Gladers01]

so called said:

Equus said:

so called said:

What the juddering f##k has quantity got to do with reliability.

Because it's really pretty pointless telling people that they should buy one of the 2006 cars, if they want reliability, when there are scarcely any available to buy.

I'm glad that your personal S6 has been reliable for you, but one swallow doesn't make a summer... I've owned 3 K-series engined cars over many tens of thousands of miles and have never suffered a head gasket failure, but I'm not so delusional as to go around telling people that HGF is a fallacy.

If someone is looking to buy a 2005/2006 T-car they will want to know what the engines like regardless of how many are available.
That's a nonsense statement.

I think I've mentioned to you previously that I'm not delusional.
I made it clear I had experienced problems with my first S6.
I have experienced the good and bad of TVR with Wedge , Chimaera , , Cerbera and Tuscan , ownership.
You had a bad time with a Griff by the sound of it.

Would second this, and guess a lot of Speed 6 owners have been bitten by unexpected and hefty engine rebuild costs over the years, they are a robust and reliable engine when built with the correct parts, I am on my sixth Speed 6 and only one required an early rebuild at 30k miles due to soft cams/followers fitted by the factory.

When the next person asks me what Tvr stands for, rather than say Trevor, am tempted to say 'Total Vehicle Reliability'

The new Griff will be very much dependant on how quickly the bonds sell and factory refurb time, sooner rather than later hopefully!

[Wiltshire Lad]

swisstoni said:

To those saying it’s dated - well it would do. They haven’t touched the design for maybe 5 yrs.

If it ever gets off the ground I’m sure everything could be tweaked.

Not so much dated as just ‘meh’.....total lack of wow factor. Looks are everything in this market and it just doesn’t have them. As a follow up to the T350, Tuscan and Sagaris it’s just a lame effort. Shame.

[Pete Mac]

I suppose my other comment is that if TVR have such a great relationship with Ford (as the article implies) then why aren't they seeking finance/issuing shares to Ford to whom £25m. must be chicken feed despite their own issues or perhaps Ford are also questioning the viability of this venture......

[ddom]

Gladers01 said:

Would second this, and guess a lot of Speed 6 owners have been bitten by unexpected and hefty engine rebuild costs over the years, they are a robust and reliable engine when built with the correct parts, I am on my sixth Speed 6 and only one required an early rebuild at 30k miles due to soft cams/followers fitted by the factory.

When the next person asks me what Tvr stands for, rather than say Trevor, am tempted to say 'Total Vehicle Reliability'

The new Griff will be very much dependant on how quickly the bonds sell and factory refurb time, sooner rather than later hopefully!

IIRC it was one of, if not the highest output I6 fitted to a production car at the time?

Of course they had shortcomings, but someone in this thread just bought the wrong car, well that's tough. It's not the car that's the issue, it is one of an individual not doing his homework

TVR are a really important part of British sports car history, Peter Wheeler was an absolute hero of mine tbh, I do wonder what he'd have made of Equus

[unsprung]

Pete Mac said:

I suppose my other comment is that if TVR have such a great relationship with Ford (as the article implies) then why aren't they seeking finance/issuing shares to Ford to whom £25m. must be chicken feed despite their own issues or perhaps Ford are also questioning the viability of this venture......

The TVR company hopes to become a cash-and-carry customer of crate engines sold by Ford.

You, and almost any person or organisation in the world (apart from those in Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria), can decide to purchase a crate engine from Ford.

There is no relationship or partnership between TVR and Ford.

[Equus]

unsprung said:

You, and almost any person or organisation in the world (apart from those in Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria), can decide to purchase a crate engine from Ford.

There is no relationship or partnership between TVR and Ford.

This.

I designed a car for a guy a few years ago. We were nobodies, basically: no name, no reputation, no high powered business meetings with the suits at Dearborn. They were still happy to supply us with a pricelist, CAD and installation data for any current Ford group engine. They have partner companies who act as local suppliers (we dealt with PTP at Hinkley, though they've since gone bust, of course).

No doubt Edgar is doing his best to imply otherwise to the press, but there's nothing special here. A 'deal' with Ford amounts to you saying 'can we buy XYZ powertrain please?' and them saying 'sure, here's our price list with specials and discounts for volume'.

[anonymous-user]

ddom said:

IIRC it was one of, if not the highest output I6 fitted to a production car at the time?

Of course they had shortcomings, but someone in this thread just bought the wrong car, well that's tough. It's not the car that's the issue, it is one of an individual not doing his homework

So, let's keep this simple. Did that engine destroy the company?

A. Yes?
B. No?