Morrison's diesel (again!)

[Benrad]

pjramsey said:

...Tried to find out how much biodiesel percentage (assuming that is the underlying reason) for each brand...

I think it has to be displayed on the pump, B7 is 7% biodiesel content, B10 is 10% etc.

It should also say EN590 somewhere, which governs all the other important parameters, although there's a range they can sit in of course

[Chris32345]

Fot everyone that's has a appernt issue there will be 6 that have had no problems at all

[Benrad]

pjramsey said:

For those that have more free time than sense I have found something a bit more scientific. Ignore the first parts and scroll to the results which clearly show the more biodiesel (which I believe can be up to 7% in Euro/UK spec) the higher the fuel consumption. Also depends what biofuel is added which was a new one on me.

https://academic.oup.com/ijlct/article/6/4/255/665...

Yes, figure 3 clearly shows that moving from 0-100% diesel gives a 10% increase in fuel consumption. The fuel the OP is using won't be more than 7% biodiesel but he's measuring a 10+% difference. I think we can conclude that biodiesel content is not causing the whole fuel economy difference

Sorry for the mass of posts, on my phone so multi quote would be a pain. Also I edited my original post, I meant road, not rust. I was referring to rolling resistance

[pjramsey]

Thanks Behead. Road makes a bit more sense than rust!!! Answering the other post why Morrison's may want to commission a report is that there does seem to be a lot of anecdotal evidence (including fleet drivers) who seem to think there is a issue with their diesel. They probably don't give a hoot however even from the small Pistonheads corner of the world it could spread negative advertising which in the long run could impact them. Hence it's in their best interest to prove their diesel is just as good as everyone else's. Plus as a consumer (and the whole point to my initial question) is that as a consumer I want to know what I am putting in my car! Fully appreciate your comments about other factors but I have done a lot of mechanics over 35years of driving and know my car pretty well and unless a complete coincidence (which I am not ruling out) am suspicious given I do the same journey under the same conditions for years that I suddenly have a problem against a backdrop of anecdotal evidence the first time I have filled up ever at Morrisons.

[Rozzers]

We went from fleet fuel cards which were exclusively used at the Morrisons next door (Berlingos, Transits, Vectra’s, E Classes) they put a surcharge on it and a Shell rep arranged a bukerage deal on V Power for the same price.

This ran for two years and as all the vehicles are tracked and fuel bills automatically applied, we could see the rolling fleet and vehicle type averages per week, month and year.

We were so confident that V Power diesel would eventually show an increase in MPG - over two years it did not, and the reliability wasn’t much different either.

Possibly the only difference here compared to private vehicles is much higher mileage.

Or maybe near us Morrisons fuel is just the same as everyone else’s, maybe they dont truck the special stuff all over the place.

We only used Morrisons as it was the nearest station to base and the staff has a list of registrations and fuel cards for when these were ‘lost’.

Still using Shell, but card doesnt permit V Power any more, only council diesel.

[Teddy Lop]

Benrad said:

Teddy Lop said:

I had a merc vito with the v6 cdi that had a penchance for dying into limp mode at me with no explanation every few months or so for the 12 years I drove it... Only fairly consistent provoker seemed to be supermarket fuel, and Morrison's was the one nearest me.

Do you know what was causing limp mode, what error codes it had?

Obvious ones would be blocked fuel filter (low fuel pressure world be the code), but that would only be fixed by changing the filter, not changing the fuel. Or water in fuel, which would normally need you to drain the filter. Unlikely to be one thing about the fuel that could cause both poor fuel economy and limp mode. If you know the error codes that might point in a certain direction though

stopped and restarted, no error codes left, well anything my mechanic could read with his gear and I couldn't be faffed involving a main dealer for what little worth they might have been.

[Biggles111]

Could be a coincidence, but I had problems with my boat (Volvo Penta D3 diesel, I believe based on the 5 cylinder D5 car engine) last year after I switched to Morrisons fuel.

I had previously run it happily on Tesco fuel for 4 years with no issues. I was struggling to get max revs, leading into limp mode. My boat mechanic tells me lots of others were having the same problem around then. A camera showed the fuel pick-up had clogged and the tank was full of diesel bug sludge (common issue on boats), which would be due to a combination of the increasing bio diesel content and condensation in the tank; the bug thrives on the water-fuel layer in these conditions. All cleaned out now, and I am sure the fuel is not unique to Morrisons, but I will stick with Tesco and or marine diesel for the future.

[pjramsey]

Interesting Biggles111. I have read that biodiesel comes in all flavors from animal fats through to vegetable. Maybe they just throw in whatever is cheapest (obviously there is a price war always going on) and the difference varies between batches. Or maybe older/difgerent diesels EcUs and fuel systems are more susceptible to different mixes. I expect something like an old 90 Defender would run old chip fat whilst a twin turbo BM engine is likely to have less tolerance. I might contact Celtic tuning as they seem have a good handle on peeformace issues....

[2xChevrons]

pjramsey said:

Interesting Biggles111. I I expect something like an old 90 Defender would run old chip fat whilst a twin turbo BM engine is likely to have less tolerance.

A good few years ago I had a Series III Land Rover with a 2.25-litre n/a diesel engine. The engine was not in the first flush of youth but generally started and ran cleanly and well - never any issues with the MoT smoke test.

Nine times out of ten it was filled with either Shell or BP standard diesel since those were on my normal route to and from work. But occasionally I filled up at Morrison's.

Every time it had a tank of Morrison's diesel it was noticeably down on power (you notice every hp you have or haven't got in something like that!), was smokier,noisier and, most acutely, became harder to start from cold. It's an old indirect injection engine and they can be rough to start if a bit tired, but mine always fired up, whatever the weather, on the third revolution after 12 seconds on the glow plugs - puff of blue smoke and then it would idle smoothly and cleanly. On Morrison's fuel it would pick up cylinder by cylinder, clunk into life with blue smoke pouring from the tailpipe and would erratically drop a cylinder for the first 10 seconds or so. I would end up bumping the idle speed up a couple of notches on the hand throttle.

This wasn't complex machine - no ECU, no mass-flow sensors, no temperature probes or glow plug timers. No air-con. I noticed it three times after filling with Morrison's, and the issues would vanish as soon as it was running on Shell or BP. I even did a deliberate test - started it from cold with a little bit of Shell diesel left in the tank (normal clean start), drove it to Morrison's, put in a gallon of fuel, drove home, let the Landy sit overnight...presto, a smoky, grumbly start in the morning.

That was enough to convince me that there was something sub-optimal about Morrison's diesel and I've avoided it where at all possible ever since.

[xcesx]

I won’t touch Morrison’s fuel. I always go to Shell where possible. My kids take the p**s out of me for it but I’ve done it since I had an issue with a blocked EGR valve about 12 years ago.

I’m sure this debate was alive then and Morrison’s were at the front of it.

[anonymous-user]

pjramsey said:

Good call regarding the a/c but no. Had it during the journey there 63mpg. Filled up and same journey back 56!

I have read quite a few other posts and just think the car doesn't like whatever mix of diesel Morrisons has. Cheers for reply.

Not wind direction? It has a huge effect.

[Slow]

I basically only use tesco and *sometimes* asda. Never have any issues.

I avoid morrisons though, heard too many bad things over the years. No idea if true but its easy enough to avoid.

[Grayedout]

There is no UK industry standard that dictates a fuel's performance. The EN standards (590 & 228) only dictate what the fuel can contain and not how it should perform.

Each company will usually specify the required performance for their fuels by stating the minimum requirements it must meet in the industry standard engine tests that are used in Europe.

Would be impossible to find out what requirements Morissons set for their fuels.

[Matty3]

Only ever filled my Sportbrake at Morrisons - bought new 116k miles ago never had any issues and have averaged 38mpg to date which I reckon is ok for a 3 litre car

[anonymous-user]

Said it before on here and got shot down, but my work had a fleet of Ford vans. Every one that regularly filled up at Morrison’s broke down.

[pjramsey]

Thanks for the replies. Seems mixed. The feedback regarding the Land Rover was interesting as 2xchevron with his test has seemed at least for his car to have proved that Morrison's diesel was different and didn't work as well. Interesting point especially comparing the favourable Sportbrake comment is obviously the Landy was an old engine with no electronics and probably designed for old diesel where the Jag is a new engine and the EVU was probably designed with maps that could adjust to different grades of diesel. Perhaps try shell diesel in the Jag. May give a mpg increase. Obviously cheap diesel isn't cheap if economy is down.

More worrying than the economy aspect is the threads that suggest reliability is effected. Could be down to other factors especially in fleet vehicles which may go longer between services. Not inconcievable that slightly higher bio content and or less additives have a greater effect on reliability when oil and filters are at the end of their service life.

All I know is that first time I have used Morrison's diesel ever and the mpg was significantly down on a journey I have done over a hundred times and in the same conditions. I actually thought something was wrong with the car. Then made the connection to a change in diesel. Time will tell when I fill up next later on this week.

[BIRMA]

I have used Morisson's diesel in my two vans for about 15 years, or probably longer, at least as long as they have been my local supermarket/station.
I run re-mapped Renault Traffic vans and have never had a problem. I would add that every fourth fill I fill up I use Shell diesel V-Power on the basis it cleans the engine.
There is a difference between the two when we put in the Shell, my fully racked out long wheelbaseTraffic goes from 40 MPG on Morrison's to 43 MPG on Shell and does run a bit smoother/quicker.
The current van is now just over 110,000 miles never had problems with MOT's etc, just to add I buy my vans brand new keep them well maintained and keep them 10 plus years then more or less throw them away and buy another new one.
I stopped using Morrison's about two years ago because when Sainsbury's just down the road opened up they were about 3-4 pence a litre cheaper than Morrison's. Despite mentioning this price difference to the manager at Morrisons they didn't do anything about it, so I went elsewhere.
I can't honestly say I've noticed any difference from the Morisson's fuel though.

[pjramsey]

Thanks Birma. Interesting reply. Seems to be the same percentage difference as I noticed. I service my aging Civic myself and have always changed oil and filters every 6k miles which apart from being a Honda is I think one of the reasons it is now in the 200k club. Once in a while I use Winn's injector cleaner just for good measure. The effect of this is a subject for a whole different debate!

Am pretty convinced by all of the replies at least in some cars the Morrison's diesel offers less MPG. On the fence in terms if it causes any damage. My personal view is that less MPG means the engine isn't working as efficiently than it should. Hence leads me to believe some of the other replies that state higher levels of breakdown.

Will report back when I fill up again which incidentally is ASDA.

[BIRMA]

pjramsey said:

Thanks Birma. Interesting reply. Seems to be the same percentage difference as I noticed. I service my aging Civic myself and have always changed oil and filters every 6k miles which apart from being a Honda is I think one of the reasons it is now in the 200k club. Once in a while I use Winn's injector cleaner just for good measure. The effect of this is a subject for a whole different debate!

Am pretty convinced by all of the replies at least in some cars the Morrison's diesel offers less MPG. On the fence in terms if it causes any damage. My personal view is that less MPG means the engine isn't working as efficiently than it should. Hence leads me to believe some of the other replies that state higher levels of breakdown.

Will report back when I fill up again which incidentally is ASDA.

Might be worth you trying some of the Hydra Fuel additives for Diesel engines, I bought some of the cleaner and cetane booster and found just sticking in a bit of both in after filling up via a plastic syringe was okay apart from the frig of having to do it, plus with V-Power diesel being so expensive I am reluctant to buy the Shell fuel and the additives work out about the same as buying the premium diesel. Reminds me the injector cleaner is running low after 12 months

Edited by BIRMA on Sunday 28th June 14:03