RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
As ever, 300bhp/ton is bang on and has been comprehensively misunderstood by the wilfully obtuse. Good points from Blown2CV too. Ineos are going to absolutely kick the Offender's arse with an infinitely superior product that looks better and is vastly more functional... JLR, as in so many areas, has committed a catastrophic misjudgment. As for the "hardtop", the whole point of the original was that it was a removable canopy which would turn your Series from a convertible pickup into a wagon. A bit of plastic trim on a fixed roof is not a hardtop, it's just a cynical marketing exercise - like the rest of the car.
Toyota also now sell a direct competitor to this by way of the commercial and utility Landcruiser, in swb and lwb configuration.I’m sure the Defender will sell but there is increasing competition.
Personally I think it looks terrible - over styled and like a blown up MINI clubman but I'm sure it'll sell well to a certain demographic.
The real test for me though is if they've managed to make it reliable. The old Defender while objectively, really quite terrible, was massively loveable and actually quite a practical vehicle for general rural use. Whether that was giving 12 pissed up folk a run home from the pub or trundling through winter floods and snow drifts.
I bought defenders for many years and then finally gave up and bought a Toyota.
I didn't ditch Land Rover because they were too noisy, too uncomfortable or too slow. I ditched them and bought a Toyota because it didn't break down all the time and bits weren't continually falling off.
Hopefully they've got it sorted but the experiences of friends with other recent JLR products doesn't fill me with much confidence.
The real test for me though is if they've managed to make it reliable. The old Defender while objectively, really quite terrible, was massively loveable and actually quite a practical vehicle for general rural use. Whether that was giving 12 pissed up folk a run home from the pub or trundling through winter floods and snow drifts.
I bought defenders for many years and then finally gave up and bought a Toyota.
I didn't ditch Land Rover because they were too noisy, too uncomfortable or too slow. I ditched them and bought a Toyota because it didn't break down all the time and bits weren't continually falling off.
Hopefully they've got it sorted but the experiences of friends with other recent JLR products doesn't fill me with much confidence.
300bhp/ton said:
Bill said:
2xChevrons said:
Sensible stuff
Exactly. The Defender has basically gone from air-cooled, wayward handling 911 to PDKed AWD turbo 99whatever model in one hit.
I'm not debating how good or bad the vehicle actually is. Or even if I personally like it or not. Just looking at it rationally, without bias and completely objectively.
Bill said:
It's all good in my book, and I wish I could afford one.
Me too. As I'm not saying I wouldn't buy one. But my personal like for the vehicle, does not alter the facts behind what it is or isn't. 
Your previous comment showing that the previous landrover was used for anything and everything shows that the original was not meant to be aimed at any one particular sector and I don't see how the new one is aimed at any one particular demographic either, admittedly its aimed at those with significant wedge at their disposal but that is no different from the previous version either, it was not a cheap machine laterally.
I said it previously but farmers will buy this as it can tow 3.5 Tonne, a hilux or L200 can't. I have heard of numerous neighbouring farmers being handed a fine for exceeding what their pick up can tow or even just towing a trailer stamped for 3.5 Te when their towing vehicle isn't capable of it regardless of the actual load in the trailer.
From the pictures the back of it looks just as useable as the back of a pickup with a canopy and off road if it is now the pinacle of the LR offering which I am assuming it will be it will be fantastically capable, I drove a new RRS offroad a couple of years ago and I was staggered at what it could do on road tyres with nothing but clever electronics and locking diffs.
Your main complaint seems to be that it doesn't have the same axle and chassis layout as the previous one but I am sure standard vs standard the new one will go places the old one won't and if it gets bought to do the school run in chelsea it will be no different to the previous one which has been seen doing that.
MK1RS Bruce said:
I said it previously but farmers will buy this as it can tow 3.5 Tonne, a hilux or L200 can't.
The Hilux, L200, Navara and Ranger can all tow 3500kg.There's also no requirement for the towing capacity and MAM of the trailer to match. See below from the department of transport website.
Edited by snowandrocks on Wednesday 1st July 14:04
RoverP6B said:
Farmers won't buy this. They'll buy the Grenadier.
They’ll largely keep buying Japanese pickups, from their local dealer, like they have done for the last quarter century.Saying that, and although I like the fact the Grenadier exists, I can’t imagine anything that I would use it for that it could do better than the Defender (I’m ignoring road manners, because that’s unfair to the Grenadier). So I’d buy a 90 Hard Top, likely for similar money.
Thank you snowandrocks said:
camel_landy said:
Ahhh... You have to be careful as not all model variants can.
M
All current Hilux can certainly tow 3500kg. Not sure about the others without googling. It's certainly not a unique defender selling point though. M
Where as as far as I am concerned all land rover defenders ever made could tow 3.5 Tonnes so it is a unique selling point as there has never been a lower rated version
RoverP6B said:
Farmers were still buying Defenders to the very end. Devon is absolutely heaving with them - farmers, forestry, even the council streetlighting maintenance guys use Defenders with bucket lifts on the back. If Ineos can cater to that market, they will do very well indeed.
In terms of numbers, they won’t. There are definitely more Defenders still around where the farms are smaller and the roads narrower, but most I know have pickups as runabouts (and have had for years).MK1RS Bruce said:
I don't understand how you can conclude that the new defender is not aimed at the same people who bought the previous version or how its aimed at a completely different sector.
Your previous comment showing that the previous landrover was used for anything and everything shows that the original was not meant to be aimed at any one particular sector and I don't see how the new one is aimed at any one particular demographic either, admittedly its aimed at those with significant wedge at their disposal but that is no different from the previous version either, it was not a cheap machine laterally.
You see, this is where I struggle. I have difficulties comprehending why you don't understand? To me it is as clear as day. But maybe we just think differently. So apologies in advance Your previous comment showing that the previous landrover was used for anything and everything shows that the original was not meant to be aimed at any one particular sector and I don't see how the new one is aimed at any one particular demographic either, admittedly its aimed at those with significant wedge at their disposal but that is no different from the previous version either, it was not a cheap machine laterally.
Whatever the past model was used for by the people who bought it, it was always a 'utility' biased vehicle. With off road and 4x4 capability front and foremost.
The new one clearly is not a utility vehicle at all. It is a road biased, fairly upmarket SUV 4wd - this is not saying it can't be versatile or capable. It is just a different sector. Just like the Range Rover (classic model in the 70/80s was always different to a Series/Ninety/Defender).
As an example.
Apart from the technology differences and company branding. How is this vehicle really any different to the new Defender?
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I would suggest it is exactly the same sort of vehicle, sitting in the same sector and aimed at the same sort of person for the same sort of intended use (maybe lacking the LA/Vegas/Soccer Mum/Chelsea Tractor image somewhat). But none the less it is a very similar type of vehicle.
However, I would think most people would say the Discovery or Range Rover (up to p38 maybe) would have been more the natural competitor and alternative to the Shogun. Not the Defender.
With the new Defender, if it is essentially the same sort of vehicle as the Shogun, then if the Shogun was in a different sector to the old Defender. Logically this new one must also.
And I can't be the only person who thinks like this. Hell, there is even a brand new vehicle called the Grenadier (which I'm sure you have heard of). Being designed and built from scratch to fulfil the very brief the old Defender used to fill.
MK1RS Bruce said:
Thats correct that all current versions of the Hilux can now tow 3500 tonnes but all the ones between 2004 and 2016 were only rated to 2800kgs
Where as as far as I am concerned all land rover defenders ever made could tow 3.5 Tonnes so it is a unique selling point as there has never been a lower rated version
Yep, a feature that almost every other new pickup offers is definitely a unique selling point of the new defender. Where as as far as I am concerned all land rover defenders ever made could tow 3.5 Tonnes so it is a unique selling point as there has never been a lower rated version
snowandrocks said:
camel_landy said:
Ahhh... You have to be careful as not all model variants can.
M
All current Hilux can certainly tow 3500kg. Not sure about the others without googling. It's certainly not a unique defender selling point though. M
M
300bhp/ton said:
Whatever the past model was used for by the people who bought it, it was always a 'utility' biased vehicle. With off road and 4x4 capability front and foremost.
The new one clearly is not a utility vehicle at all. It is a road biased, fairly upmarket SUV 4wd - this is not saying it can't be versatile or capable. It is just a different sector. Just like the Range Rover (classic model in the 70/80s was always different to a Series/Ninety/Defender)
So what can the old Defender do that the new one cannot (apart from fit through the odd narrower gate hole and give you a sore elbow)? It’s a bit like whining that a new Fendt 1000 is rubbish because it has GPS and air con and ABS and CVT, and a grey Fergie doesn’t.The new one clearly is not a utility vehicle at all. It is a road biased, fairly upmarket SUV 4wd - this is not saying it can't be versatile or capable. It is just a different sector. Just like the Range Rover (classic model in the 70/80s was always different to a Series/Ninety/Defender)
I’ve used a modern Discovery in exactly the same role as an old Defender - towing stuff, driving through fields, chucking stuff in the back. It was much better.
NomduJour said:
RoverP6B said:
Farmers were still buying Defenders to the very end. Devon is absolutely heaving with them - farmers, forestry, even the council streetlighting maintenance guys use Defenders with bucket lifts on the back. If Ineos can cater to that market, they will do very well indeed.
In terms of numbers, they won’t. There are definitely more Defenders still around where the farms are smaller and the roads narrower, but most I know have pickups as runabouts (and have had for years).
And some dealerships had been shunning the Defender for well over a decade. If I recall, Conwy Land Rover in North Wales was one of the biggest sellers of Defenders. I suspect their clientbase has changed dramatically in the recent times, simply due to the fact of having nothing to actually sell to many of their existing customers.
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