RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
Yeah well they kind of have too. LR haven't had anything to sell to farmers for 5 years!!! 
And some dealerships had been shunning the Defender for well over a decade. If I recall, Conwy Land Rover in North Wales was one of the biggest sellers of Defenders. I suspect their clientbase has changed dramatically in the recent times, simply due to the fact of having nothing to actually sell to many of their existing customers.
Get real, the Defender was years out of date when it first became the Defender. People bought Japanese pickups because they were more comfortable, more spacious, faster, quieter and just generally more pleasant to run about in.And some dealerships had been shunning the Defender for well over a decade. If I recall, Conwy Land Rover in North Wales was one of the biggest sellers of Defenders. I suspect their clientbase has changed dramatically in the recent times, simply due to the fact of having nothing to actually sell to many of their existing customers.
camel_landy said:
snowandrocks said:
camel_landy said:
Ahhh... You have to be careful as not all model variants can.
M
All current Hilux can certainly tow 3500kg. Not sure about the others without googling. It's certainly not a unique defender selling point though. M
M
Doesn't differentiate between models that I can see, appears to apply to all new HiLux.
A friend bought 2 new Ford Rangers in 2007 for her business specifically because they had a 3.5T towing limit.
I haven't checked the others, but there have and continue to be a number of options if you want a 3.5T towing limit.
NomduJour said:
So what can the old Defender do that the new one cannot (apart from fit through the odd narrower gate hole and give you a sore elbow)? It’s a bit like whining that a new Fendt 1000 is rubbish because it has GPS and air con and ABS and CVT, and a grey Fergie doesn’t.
I’ve used a modern Discovery in exactly the same role as an old Defender - towing stuff, driving through fields, chucking stuff in the back. It was much better.
It can't off-road as well as the old one and it's a lot more difficult and expensive to repair should anything break. Next!I’ve used a modern Discovery in exactly the same role as an old Defender - towing stuff, driving through fields, chucking stuff in the back. It was much better.
RoverP6B said:
It can't off-road as well as the old one and it's a lot more difficult and expensive to repair should anything break. Next!
I will wager - from experience of Land Rovers old and new - that it’s far more capable in pretty much every situation you’re likely to find yourself in. As for repair, where does that leave the Grenadier with its current-tech BMW/ZF drivetrain?
RoverP6B said:
NomduJour said:
So what can the old Defender do that the new one cannot (apart from fit through the odd narrower gate hole and give you a sore elbow)? It’s a bit like whining that a new Fendt 1000 is rubbish because it has GPS and air con and ABS and CVT, and a grey Fergie doesn’t.
I’ve used a modern Discovery in exactly the same role as an old Defender - towing stuff, driving through fields, chucking stuff in the back. It was much better.
It can't off-road as well as the old one and it's a lot more difficult and expensive to repair should anything break. Next!I’ve used a modern Discovery in exactly the same role as an old Defender - towing stuff, driving through fields, chucking stuff in the back. It was much better.
RoverP6B said:
- farmers, forestry, even the council streetlighting maintenance guys use Defenders with bucket lifts on the back. If Ineos can cater to that market, they will do very well indeed.
Lets say for a moment that Ineos take every single sale that the old defended had, worldwide That's around 17,00 units a year, or 8,000 short of the target 25,000 sales that has been mentioned as their target point.
Can you see the problem?
The drivetrain isn't what I was talking about. I was talking suspension and chassis components. A monocoque with independent suspension at all corners is inherently fragile. A lot of monocoque 4x4s get written off because of damage to the floorpan. Watch any video comparing the Pretender to the latest Wrangler - the Jeep has better traction, better axle articulation and is far more stable, where the Pretender bobs and weaves and picks up wheels and is generally liable to roll over.
NomduJour said:
So what can the old Defender do that the new one cannot (apart from fit through the odd narrower gate hole and give you a sore elbow)? It’s a bit like whining that a new Fendt 1000 is rubbish because it has GPS and air con and ABS and CVT, and a grey Fergie doesn’t.
I’ve used a modern Discovery in exactly the same role as an old Defender - towing stuff, driving through fields, chucking stuff in the back. It was much better.
Firstly, I know you are being obtuse for the sake of it. And because you have been creaming your pants for months over the new Defender. And shouting riot at anyone who doesn't share your lust for it. I’ve used a modern Discovery in exactly the same role as an old Defender - towing stuff, driving through fields, chucking stuff in the back. It was much better.
If I was being flippant. I'd say, what does a Transit Connect do that a 3 Series estate can not? As that is pretty much the baiting statement you are trying to make isn't it
Or what does a Range Rover do that the new Defender cannot. So why does JLR want both modes in the range?
However, in the interests of civility and trying to keep 'on topic'. I will answer.
What can the old Defender do that the new Pretender cannot?
-Modular design, allowing a vehicle to be easily transformed from a hard top, to a pickup, to a full tilt to a county station wagon
-Configurable and customisable design. Allowing for things like a chassis cab to be bought.
-Available as a pickup
-Available as a proper Short Wheel Base (SWB) model. The new 90 Pretender is half a foot longer than a "long wheel base" Discovery 1!
-Made from Birmabight, a trademark staple for all "Land" Rovers since 1948. And as much a 'part' of the model, as the wooden ash frame is on a Morgan
-PTO capability
-Simple rugged design that doesn't need to rely on a vast array of electronics to get from A to B off road
-Simple, rugged and functional interior, with seats you could wipe down and/or get muddy
-Able to keep all 4 wheels on the ground in most off road situations
-Small and nimble
-Carry anywhere from 9 to 12 people
-Easy to bolt on aftermarket accessories like winches, bumpers, side steps, etc.
300bhp/ton said:
What can the old Defender do that the new Pretender cannot?
300bhp/ton said:
-Modular design, allowing a vehicle to be easily transformed from a hard top, to a pickup, to a full tilt to a county station wagon
Nobody cares, it’s a pain to do on an old one in any case300bhp/ton said:
-Configurable and customisable design. Allowing for things like a chassis cab to be bought.
-Available as a pickup
Agreed, but the platform precludes it (and how many pickups don’t have a canopy?), and the chassis cab market must be minuscule-Available as a pickup
300bhp/ton said:
-Available as a proper Short Wheel Base (SWB) model. The new 90 Pretender is half a foot longer than a "long wheel base" Discovery 1!
No, it isn’t. A new 90 is 8 1/2” shorter than a Discovery 1300bhp/ton said:
-Made from Birmabight, a trademark staple for all "Land" Rovers since 1948. And as much a 'part' of the model, as the wooden ash frame is on a Morgan
Err, whatever300bhp/ton said:
-PTO capability
Seriously? I mean, really, seriously?300bhp/ton said:
-Simple rugged design that doesn't need to rely on a vast array of electronics to get from A to B off road
All modern cars are unavoidably full of electronics, and modern traction control is hugely effective, a bizarre thing not to want300bhp/ton said:
-Simple, rugged and functional interior, with seats you could wipe down and/or get muddy
Has all those300bhp/ton said:
-Able to keep all 4 wheels on the ground in most off road situations
Yep300bhp/ton said:
-Small and nimble
Yep, in 90 format300bhp/ton said:
-Carry anywhere from 9 to 12 people
Completely impossible with modern safety/packaging requirements300bhp/ton said:
-Easy to bolt on aftermarket accessories like winches, bumpers, side steps, etc.
Lots of factory accessories, and the aftermarket is already filling up with themI’ll qualify my responses by saying that I’m no standard bearer for the new one - I just find your opinions ridiculous.
300bhp/ton said:
What can the old Defender do that the new Pretender cannot?
-Modular design, allowing a vehicle to be easily transformed from a hard top, to a pickup, to a full tilt to a county station wagon
-Configurable and customisable design. Allowing for things like a chassis cab to be bought.
-Available as a pickup
-Available as a proper Short Wheel Base (SWB) model. The new 90 Pretender is half a foot longer than a "long wheel base" Discovery 1!
-Made from Birmabight, a trademark staple for all "Land" Rovers since 1948. And as much a 'part' of the model, as the wooden ash frame is on a Morgan
-PTO capability
-Simple rugged design that doesn't need to rely on a vast array of electronics to get from A to B off road
-Simple, rugged and functional interior, with seats you could wipe down and/or get muddy
-Able to keep all 4 wheels on the ground in most off road situations
-Small and nimble
-Carry anywhere from 9 to 12 people
-Easy to bolt on aftermarket accessories like winches, bumpers, side steps, etc.
Fine... Brilliant...-Modular design, allowing a vehicle to be easily transformed from a hard top, to a pickup, to a full tilt to a county station wagon
-Configurable and customisable design. Allowing for things like a chassis cab to be bought.
-Available as a pickup
-Available as a proper Short Wheel Base (SWB) model. The new 90 Pretender is half a foot longer than a "long wheel base" Discovery 1!
-Made from Birmabight, a trademark staple for all "Land" Rovers since 1948. And as much a 'part' of the model, as the wooden ash frame is on a Morgan
-PTO capability
-Simple rugged design that doesn't need to rely on a vast array of electronics to get from A to B off road
-Simple, rugged and functional interior, with seats you could wipe down and/or get muddy
-Able to keep all 4 wheels on the ground in most off road situations
-Small and nimble
-Carry anywhere from 9 to 12 people
-Easy to bolt on aftermarket accessories like winches, bumpers, side steps, etc.
...now go away.
M
Way back it did not take long for the market for the original Series Land Rover (farmers and the military) to evolve in ways that the Rover company did not expect or plan for - such as the school run or shopping trip. Comprehensive research by Land Rover in the early 1980s revealed that many were purchased to fulfill a dual role - support a business during the working week and then serve as the family runabout. This was not a revelation solely confined to the UK. It applied in many other markets. Payload and towing capacity were deemed essential. It was being used by many as a dual purpose vehicle.
That formula of creating a dual purpose vehicle has been explicitly retained by Land Rover in this latest incarnation of a 4x4 that can tow 3.500 kg. It is also, as others have pointed out, the first to benefit from an extended engineering development programme. The original was put together in a hurry with limited resources picking up components from the Rover parts bin wherever possible. The 90/110 development was also a scramble for the engineers at the time because there had been a five year hiatus with absolutely no change at all between 1973 and 1978. Claims that the latest version is "not a Defender" are wrong. It is certainly very different its engineering from the old version. This is no accident but entirely intentional as anyone bothered to look into published information can discover for themselves. What matters most to most consumers is not what is is but what it does or can do for them. We will discover soon enough whether Land Rover have got it right or wrong. There is no shortage of existing and about to be released competitors in the markets that Land Rover contests.
That formula of creating a dual purpose vehicle has been explicitly retained by Land Rover in this latest incarnation of a 4x4 that can tow 3.500 kg. It is also, as others have pointed out, the first to benefit from an extended engineering development programme. The original was put together in a hurry with limited resources picking up components from the Rover parts bin wherever possible. The 90/110 development was also a scramble for the engineers at the time because there had been a five year hiatus with absolutely no change at all between 1973 and 1978. Claims that the latest version is "not a Defender" are wrong. It is certainly very different its engineering from the old version. This is no accident but entirely intentional as anyone bothered to look into published information can discover for themselves. What matters most to most consumers is not what is is but what it does or can do for them. We will discover soon enough whether Land Rover have got it right or wrong. There is no shortage of existing and about to be released competitors in the markets that Land Rover contests.
Max_Torque said:
And here's some things the new Defender can't do that the old one certainly does do:
But yeah Birmabright and a hose out interior are REALLY important yeah...................
That's quite a moronic reply, unless you are suggesting no IFS/IRS product has even been in an RTI.But yeah Birmabright and a hose out interior are REALLY important yeah...................
300bhp/ton said:
As an example.
Apart from the technology differences and company branding. How is this vehicle really any different to the new Defender?
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I would suggest it is exactly the same sort of vehicle, sitting in the same sector and aimed at the same sort of person for the same sort of intended use (maybe lacking the LA/Vegas/Soccer Mum/Chelsea Tractor image somewhat). But none the less it is a very similar type of vehicle.
However, I would think most people would say the Discovery or Range Rover (up to p38 maybe) would have been more the natural competitor and alternative to the Shogun. Not the Defender.
With the new Defender, if it is essentially the same sort of vehicle as the Shogun, then if the Shogun was in a different sector to the old Defender. Logically this new one must also.
Its weird the Shogun, as you say they don't appeal to posers, soccer moms, or even terrorists/militants, and they've binned it now anyway. Apart from the technology differences and company branding. How is this vehicle really any different to the new Defender?
I would suggest it is exactly the same sort of vehicle, sitting in the same sector and aimed at the same sort of person for the same sort of intended use (maybe lacking the LA/Vegas/Soccer Mum/Chelsea Tractor image somewhat). But none the less it is a very similar type of vehicle.
However, I would think most people would say the Discovery or Range Rover (up to p38 maybe) would have been more the natural competitor and alternative to the Shogun. Not the Defender.
With the new Defender, if it is essentially the same sort of vehicle as the Shogun, then if the Shogun was in a different sector to the old Defender. Logically this new one must also.
But used prices indicate there is at least some demand out there for such a vehicle. It can't just be for highway maintenance use and towing stuff, although they are good at that. I quite fancied a SWB one as a cheaper and nicer to drive Defender substitute, without going down to the ridiculous size of the Jimny.
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