RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
Can we please stop propogating this myth that the Grenadier is a costly lifestyle wagon? It's designed specifically to be as utilitarian as possible, with as few concessions to on-road manners as possible, and Ineos have said that it will be priced competitively - whereas the Nude Offender is, for an Eastern European built monocoque SUV with fully independent suspension and 2-litre 4-cylinder engines (setting aside the 3.0 petrol mild hybrid which nobody will buy - where's the big diesel?!), distinctly poor VFM.
"But can't you see, he's wearing nothing at all!"
That’s exactly what is though. A £40k, BMW engines copy of an old Land Rover shape for a Western world that is completely covered in tarmac. It’s 100% lifestyle. It was even dreamed up by a bloke from Monaco in a London red trouser pub. They’re even going to assemble the parts in Britain for that extra lifestyle element. And it looks superb. Can’t wait for them to appear in London and other cities where the people who can afford them and want some fun live. "But can't you see, he's wearing nothing at all!"
If it wasn’t ever intended as a lifestyle vehicle then it wouldn’t be so expensive and wouldn’t be being assembled in the UK.
Twisted and Kahn will already be planning additions for them as will Nene.
DonkeyApple said:
RoverP6B said:
Can we please stop propogating this myth that the Grenadier is a costly lifestyle wagon? It's designed specifically to be as utilitarian as possible, with as few concessions to on-road manners as possible, and Ineos have said that it will be priced competitively - whereas the Nude Offender is, for an Eastern European built monocoque SUV with fully independent suspension and 2-litre 4-cylinder engines (setting aside the 3.0 petrol mild hybrid which nobody will buy - where's the big diesel?!), distinctly poor VFM.
"But can't you see, he's wearing nothing at all!"
That’s exactly what is though. A £40k, BMW engines copy of an old Land Rover shape for a Western world that is completely covered in tarmac. It’s 100% lifestyle. It was even dreamed up by a bloke from Monaco in a London red trouser pub. They’re even going to assemble the parts in Britain for that extra lifestyle element. And it looks superb. Can’t wait for them to appear in London and other cities where the people who can afford them and want some fun live. "But can't you see, he's wearing nothing at all!"
If it wasn’t ever intended as a lifestyle vehicle then it wouldn’t be so expensive and wouldn’t be being assembled in the UK.
Twisted and Kahn will already be planning additions for them as will Nene.
I think these look great and I am likely to buy one. I don’t care what the detractors say I think it looks great and will make a rugged family wagon with a good combination of refinement and Tonka Toy ability. If you want an old one then buy one and STFU and allow those that can afford one to buy it and enjoy.
I also like the Jimny, Mustang, 500 and BMW Mini which all capitalise on the heritage of the brands whilst creating a more modern product. There could be a way for JLR to test the waters by making a more stripped out commercial version. Vinyl seats rubber flooring with drain holes. No radio etc etc and then see how many orders it would get before committing to production.
I also like the Jimny, Mustang, 500 and BMW Mini which all capitalise on the heritage of the brands whilst creating a more modern product. There could be a way for JLR to test the waters by making a more stripped out commercial version. Vinyl seats rubber flooring with drain holes. No radio etc etc and then see how many orders it would get before committing to production.
DonkeyApple said:
That’s exactly what is though. A £40k, BMW engines copy of an old Land Rover shape for a Western world that is completely covered in tarmac. It’s 100% lifestyle. It was even dreamed up by a bloke from Monaco in a London red trouser pub. They’re even going to assemble the parts in Britain for that extra lifestyle element. And it looks superb. Can’t wait for them to appear in London and other cities where the people who can afford them and want some fun live.
If it wasn’t ever intended as a lifestyle vehicle then it wouldn’t be so expensive and wouldn’t be being assembled in the UK.
Twisted and Kahn will already be planning additions for them as will Nene.
No no no, don't you know that all the beardy whingers and nonces from the "One Life Live It" brigade are going to give up their lifetime habit of only buying cars at 15+ years old with a quarter of a million miles on the clock for £2k to snap up £40,000 Grenadiers by the THOUSAND for their important utilitarian needs of walting around at village fetes with their CB radios? I'll bet you a cup of weak lemon squash that you won't see a single one of these things mincing around Kensington If it wasn’t ever intended as a lifestyle vehicle then it wouldn’t be so expensive and wouldn’t be being assembled in the UK.
Twisted and Kahn will already be planning additions for them as will Nene.
Lifestyle vehicle indeed, I throw down my high-viz gauntlet at you, sir.
PoverP6B and 300bhp/ton spotted earlier today on their way to buy a pair of Grenadiers for £80,000
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 6th July 14:52
DoubleD said:
Yeah, I agree its the Grenadier thats the lifestyle vehicle and its the utility design of it that does that.
I would say it's not the utility design, but the looks, that make the Grenadier a lifestyle vehicle. It's for people who are too snobby to use a real utility vehicle, i.e. a Japanese pick-up or a van. No-one would be remotely interested in the Grenadier if it didn't look like an old Defender.
That's not to say I don't wish INEOS good luck with it.
braddo said:
It's for people who are too snobby to use a real utility vehicle, i.e. a Japanese pick-up or a van. No-one would be remotely interested in the Grenadier if it didn't look like an old Defender.
Although I don't know anyone who has ever been in a position to spend £40k on a new car who has any interest in it; all the chatter is amongst walts worried about being unfaithful to their Disco 2 by thinking how good the Grenadier will look with a snorkel on it when they buy a used one in 2035.hyphen said:
Small load on a pallet, being fork lifted in Landrover is having a laugh
Edited by hyphen on Monday 6th July 15:24
The opening is wider than a Euro pallet. Easier to load than the D4 commercials I had as they had the drop down tailgate.
Or am I missing something?
Edited by Sixpackpert on Monday 6th July 17:02
Sixpackpert said:
hyphen said:
Small load on a pallet, being fork lifted in Landrover is having a laugh
Edited by hyphen on Monday 6th July 15:24
The opening is wider than a Euro pallet. Easier than when I had D4 commercials due to the drop down tailgate.
Or am I missing something?
I suspect they actually will, I know quite a few people with proper Range Rovers that actually use them to do some work for their business and then work as a family car on the weekends. Like a less council crew cab pickup, if you will.
With air suspension the Defender will be a lot better than the Grenadier for putting half a ton of s
t in the boot and driving it somewhere.DonkeyApple said:
RoverP6B said:
Can we please stop propogating this myth that the Grenadier is a costly lifestyle wagon? It's designed specifically to be as utilitarian as possible, with as few concessions to on-road manners as possible, and Ineos have said that it will be priced competitively - whereas the Nude Offender is, for an Eastern European built monocoque SUV with fully independent suspension and 2-litre 4-cylinder engines (setting aside the 3.0 petrol mild hybrid which nobody will buy - where's the big diesel?!), distinctly poor VFM.
"But can't you see, he's wearing nothing at all!"
That’s exactly what is though. A £40k, BMW engines copy of an old Land Rover shape for a Western world that is completely covered in tarmac. It’s 100% lifestyle. It was even dreamed up by a bloke from Monaco in a London red trouser pub. They’re even going to assemble the parts in Britain for that extra lifestyle element. And it looks superb. Can’t wait for them to appear in London and other cities where the people who can afford them and want some fun live. "But can't you see, he's wearing nothing at all!"
If it wasn’t ever intended as a lifestyle vehicle then it wouldn’t be so expensive and wouldn’t be being assembled in the UK.
As for the petrol engine, we've seen the new closed-deck B58 in the latest BMWs and the Zupra, and it's a massively strong engine, as well as being underrated significantly in terms of power output - bone stock 2021MY Zupras have been making slightly higher numbers at the wheels than BMW claims they make at the flywheel... at stock power levels it's likely to prove extremely reliable, and Nene Overland are out of a job as nobody will want to LS3-swap the Grenadier when the B58 will equal or exceed its output with a quick remap. Using BMW engines also gives convenient access to a global network of dealers and independent specialists for maintenance/repair, and parts availability will be better than for engines mostly found in America. Those who wish to modify the engines for massively increased power and/or longevity will also benefit from ease of access to performance parts like forged/billet rotating assembly components, turbos etc.
Carraro axles also promise durability, longevity and good global availability of maintenance and parts.
Pricing wise, again, Ineos have said it will be targeted competitively against the upper end of the Japanese pickup market, likely on a par with the Land Cruiser. Japan is every bit as expensive a place to manufacture as the UK. Somehow Toyota, Mitsubishi and Nissan manage to manufacture some specialist and at times pricey machinery there and shift plenty of units thereof, despite the expense involved, and haven't been killed off by the glut of cheap product from Great Wall and its ilk.
The Grenadier is of course of very mixed parentage - German engine/gearbox, the 4WD system presumably Austrian, Italian axles, Portuguese chassis and body panels, assembled in Wales - the major expense is going to be logistics as much as labour.
It has no badge snob value, no brand associations (which is good as well as bad, given JLR's appalling reputation in terms of build quality and reliability), no direct heritage to fall back on (whatever obvious comparisons can be made with Land Rovers, Santanas/Ivecos and G-wagens) and is the same shape as an industrial estate warehouse and about as pretty. It's there to do a job, and a lot of people who need tough off-road work trucks are taking a serious interest in it - whereas the evidence suggests that the Nude Offender is going to be a monumental flop from the increasingly beleaguered, floundering JLR.
Meanwhile, Ineos are already talking about more products beyond the Grenadier - I wouldn't be surprised to see a Jimny rival with BMW 3-cylinder power, or possibly something larger than the Grenadier to rival the big American trucks, although that would require a different engine partner - possibly the aforementioned Cummins V8, now looking for a new home, as Nissan have decided to discontinue diesel propulsion in the mid-size Titan pickup.
ettore said:
Another ‘off the planet’ post.
I hear that the Defender is such a sales flop that they’re going to shift 60,000 units this year despite the factory shutdowns.
It's going to be a smashing great success, and the same people whining about it now will think it's god's gift to walting when they finally buy one in 15 years and stick some orange lights on it.I hear that the Defender is such a sales flop that they’re going to shift 60,000 units this year despite the factory shutdowns.
Everyone I know who had the old Defenders new in the last 10yrs (that rules out the Walts and those that admit to not driving one for 40yrs) all said they were POS. Every one of them purchased because they thought it was a lifestyle vehicle and cool to be seen in. Everyone of them had something else for doing anything meaningful with or travelling any sort of distance. They all leaked from brand new and had ancient road manners and cost £40k.
These are the sort of people that can now buy a new Defender knowing they can use it whenever and wherever in relative comfort and luxury.
As someone said earlier the Walts can choose to trade in their Nissan Terrano in 15yrs time and buy one for £2k then. There opinions matter little.
These are the sort of people that can now buy a new Defender knowing they can use it whenever and wherever in relative comfort and luxury.
As someone said earlier the Walts can choose to trade in their Nissan Terrano in 15yrs time and buy one for £2k then. There opinions matter little.
As I mentioned before, I personally knew a woman who bought two 110 Defenders brand new, sold the first to make way for an ML63 AMG which then got traded in against the second. She was a suburban school teaching assistant who never went off-road, but she loved those Defenders, for all their flaws, and told me her ML63 was impractical and (M156 engine aside) dull in comparison.
Sixty thousand Nude Offenders a year? Not happening! Discovery sales peaked at 51k in 2015 and have declined ever since.
Sixty thousand Nude Offenders a year? Not happening! Discovery sales peaked at 51k in 2015 and have declined ever since.
RoverP6B said:
As I mentioned before, I personally knew a woman who bought two 110 Defenders brand new, sold the first to make way for an ML63 AMG which then got traded in against the second. She was a suburban school teaching assistant who never went off-road, but she loved those Defenders, for all their flaws, and told me her ML63 was impractical and (M156 engine aside) dull in comparison.
Sixty thousand Nude Offenders a year? Not happening! Discovery sales peaked at 51k in 2015 and have declined ever since.
Well, let’s see shall we - information came from a better source than you!Sixty thousand Nude Offenders a year? Not happening! Discovery sales peaked at 51k in 2015 and have declined ever since.
A teaching assistant who potters around in a couple of brand new Defenders, anywhere between 4 and 40 years ago...
What on earth does that have to do with the New Defender? Perhaps you should check if she has one on order before you use her as some irrelevant example for your (non-)arguments!
What on earth does that have to do with the New Defender? Perhaps you should check if she has one on order before you use her as some irrelevant example for your (non-)arguments!
More twaddle from P6. I love old st cars, look on my profile. If I only needed to travel short distances I could convince myself an old Defender would be interesting and useful and justify it on so many levels.
I am a realist though and have a nice new car for my young family. P6 you would never have purchased one anyway.
t cars, look on my profile. If I only needed to travel short distances I could convince myself an old Defender would be interesting and useful and justify it on so many levels. I am a realist though and have a nice new car for my young family. P6 you would never have purchased one anyway.
RoverP6B said:
As I mentioned before, I personally knew a woman who bought two 110 Defenders brand new, sold the first to make way for an ML63 AMG which then got traded in against the second. She was a suburban school teaching assistant who never went off-road, but she loved those Defenders, for all their flaws, and told me her ML63 was impractical and (M156 engine aside) dull in comparison.
Sixty thousand Nude Offenders a year? Not happening! Discovery sales peaked at 51k in 2015 and have declined ever since.
I admire your commitment to being an absolute weapon. Sixty thousand Nude Offenders a year? Not happening! Discovery sales peaked at 51k in 2015 and have declined ever since.
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