Leaking Rad Valves
Discussion
Fitted new copper pipes, used press fittings all round, started to fill up the boiler, noticed that it seemed to take longer than normal, went to check the pipes...and....LEAK!
Although as you can guess from the title the only place its leaking from are both the valves into the radiators where the copper pipe goes into the valve.
I used brass olives when assembling the first time but I took it apart after leak 1 & the olive wasn't compressed, I slid it right off on both sides. So I applied a little LSX to the olive and tried again...and...leak.
Not as bad this time but still leak coming from between the nut and the copper pipe, leading me to think the olive still isnt sealing. I think the side with the TRV seemed to have stopped but not sure if that is because the valve is closed or that there isn't enough water in the system to pressurise it yet.
Any ideas on what it could be or why this is happening?
I made sure that the pipe going into the valve was straight and pushed up as far as I could, the valves didn't leak before but that doesn't mean that they aren't in need of replacing either.
EDIT: These are the ones I used, https://www.screwfix.com/p/compression-olives-15mm... also thinking if I should use olives without a chamfer?
Other option I've been told to try is using copper olives instead of the brass ones as clearly something isn't sealing.
Although as you can guess from the title the only place its leaking from are both the valves into the radiators where the copper pipe goes into the valve.
I used brass olives when assembling the first time but I took it apart after leak 1 & the olive wasn't compressed, I slid it right off on both sides. So I applied a little LSX to the olive and tried again...and...leak.
Not as bad this time but still leak coming from between the nut and the copper pipe, leading me to think the olive still isnt sealing. I think the side with the TRV seemed to have stopped but not sure if that is because the valve is closed or that there isn't enough water in the system to pressurise it yet.
Any ideas on what it could be or why this is happening?
I made sure that the pipe going into the valve was straight and pushed up as far as I could, the valves didn't leak before but that doesn't mean that they aren't in need of replacing either.
EDIT: These are the ones I used, https://www.screwfix.com/p/compression-olives-15mm... also thinking if I should use olives without a chamfer?
Other option I've been told to try is using copper olives instead of the brass ones as clearly something isn't sealing.
Edited by bobski1 on Thursday 2nd July 22:32
I've tightened it as much as I could, was a bit wary of twisting or moving the the valve body but gave it some serious umph.
Could it be that when doing the union nut from the valve to the rad it moved? Although I firstly placed the valve on the pipe & secured the union first before then tightening the nut I to the valve
Would PTFE be a viable solution it is that meant to be used as a quick fix?
Could it be that when doing the union nut from the valve to the rad it moved? Although I firstly placed the valve on the pipe & secured the union first before then tightening the nut I to the valve
Would PTFE be a viable solution it is that meant to be used as a quick fix?
You need some copper olives, copper bests brass as a gasket material since forever. Getting hard to find though, eBay may be required. Make sure the pipe is ultra clean, rub with scotch to Make sure. The trick is to wrap ptfe tape round the olive, this helps seal. It will not leak if you use this method.
bobski1 said:
I've tightened it as much as I could, was a bit wary of twisting or moving the the valve body but gave it some serious umph.
How tight was that? I always go for finger tight plus half a turn and don't recall ever having an issue. I mark the nut for added confidence of having done this. Edit: This got me thinking about where I got this 'half turn' from and it'll almost certainly been my Dad as he was a heating engineer in an earlier life. However, that's not to say he's necessarily right and so I asked Uncle Internet and Pegler say a full turn for 6-12mm and 3/4 turn for 15mm to 54mm, whilst Conex say 1 1/4 turns for 6-18mm on half hard copper (likely the pipe you'd buy) and 1 turn for 22mm. So it looks like I've been under-tightening slightly, for these brands at least, and whilst as mentioned I've never had an issue I'd suggest going by what they say rather than MJNewton's Dad on the Internet...
Edited by MJNewton on Thursday 2nd July 23:51
Ordered some copper olives, going to collect this morning. Wolsely plumbing have them in stock in case anybody wanted to know.
I tightened it as hard as a I could then another nip.
Going to give it all another clean as well to see if that helps.
Are radiator valves direction dependant? Would it help to try swap them to see if it's anything to do with the pipe on either especially if I might have got one side to potentially stop?
I wonder also if there is some gunk in the thread of the valve body which isn't allowing the nut to go all the way?
Which is the best inhibitor? Drained the system so need to top it back up
I tightened it as hard as a I could then another nip.
Going to give it all another clean as well to see if that helps.
Are radiator valves direction dependant? Would it help to try swap them to see if it's anything to do with the pipe on either especially if I might have got one side to potentially stop?
I wonder also if there is some gunk in the thread of the valve body which isn't allowing the nut to go all the way?
Which is the best inhibitor? Drained the system so need to top it back up
Edited by bobski1 on Friday 3rd July 07:14
I've messed around with plumbing on a DIY basis (but that includes full central heating installs) for years and I never knew there were different kinds of olives!
One thing I've seen done on iffy pipe is to wrap PTFE around it then slide the olive over the PTFE, then PTFE over the olive.
LSX is magical, so if it leaked after that was used it must have been really loose - or not enough was used / wasn't left for a bit before it got wet.
I will say that after CH was refitted by pro's at daughter's house I had to remove a rad for decorating and I was amazed at how tightly the fittings were done up - I've never done more than nip them up when I've done them.
One thing I've seen done on iffy pipe is to wrap PTFE around it then slide the olive over the PTFE, then PTFE over the olive.
LSX is magical, so if it leaked after that was used it must have been really loose - or not enough was used / wasn't left for a bit before it got wet.
I will say that after CH was refitted by pro's at daughter's house I had to remove a rad for decorating and I was amazed at how tightly the fittings were done up - I've never done more than nip them up when I've done them.
Some of the fittings we get nowadays are really poor. I've fitted loads of brass olives over the years being a plumber and heating engineer and some haven't been annealed enough so they are rock hard. Even really tightening them they won't bite into the pipe.
I've been back to some jobs to alter stuff and move pipes etc and removed brass fittings and the olive just slips off!! I often wonder how they held!
Use good quality copper olives that actually bite into the pipework, also add paste onto the olive to help and that should sort it.
I've been back to some jobs to alter stuff and move pipes etc and removed brass fittings and the olive just slips off!! I often wonder how they held!
Use good quality copper olives that actually bite into the pipework, also add paste onto the olive to help and that should sort it.
Bought some copper olives so going to try them with some LSX over the olive, will be fairly liberal.
If that doesn't work I can remove and apply PTFE too.
I'm just glad that the rest weren't leaking and that it's something fixable but very frustrating as it's so simple in the grand scheme of what I did & my experience!
Thank you all for the advice, will update when I get to it
If that doesn't work I can remove and apply PTFE too.
I'm just glad that the rest weren't leaking and that it's something fixable but very frustrating as it's so simple in the grand scheme of what I did & my experience!
Thank you all for the advice, will update when I get to it
I don't think you will even need the LSX on a clean pipe and copper olive - I only ebver use copper olives. My local indy plumbers merchant sells them. Screwfix uded to, don't now, but some of their fittings come with brass olives, and some come with copper. I replace them anyway.
Copper also gives you far more of a "feel" for when it is tight enough - there is no hard and fast rule like "finger tight and then half a turn" any more, because some of the threads on fittings are horribly roughly cut. You can feel the copper squashing 10x better than you feel a brass olive biting.
After a couple of good joints you will know just what sort of tightness you need to seal it.
Brass olives are also a lot harder to cut off than copper if you need to, and are far more likely to leak if you have to undo things and then nip them up again.
Copper will give you the feel you need, brass just looks at you and says "tighten as much as you dare".
And that often ends badly.
Copper also gives you far more of a "feel" for when it is tight enough - there is no hard and fast rule like "finger tight and then half a turn" any more, because some of the threads on fittings are horribly roughly cut. You can feel the copper squashing 10x better than you feel a brass olive biting.
After a couple of good joints you will know just what sort of tightness you need to seal it.
Brass olives are also a lot harder to cut off than copper if you need to, and are far more likely to leak if you have to undo things and then nip them up again.
Copper will give you the feel you need, brass just looks at you and says "tighten as much as you dare".
And that often ends badly.
Well, yesterday was interesting.
Swapped brass olives for copper ones, nipped up to get the copper to bite, removed the coupling, PTFE & back on. Slowly filling system & boom, no leaks!
Started to fill the system, noticed it seemed to take ages however as I started to open the other radiator back into the system & remove the air it filled up a lot faster each time.
One thing I noticed was after all the rads were on, all the air bled, I turned the heating on, rads starting to get warm except the new one. Then old ones didn't feel as warm. Boiler pressure reading 0.
Horrible gut feeling something wasn't right & the gut was right. The Tee joining the radiator from my current bedroom was leaking. It's possible it's been leaking for a while as the system has struggled to maintain constant pressure for sometime & needing topping up every few weeks.
So rummaging around I touched the pipe & pisssssssss. Water everywhere, opened up a valve downstairs to drain but damage already done. Spent rest of the right removing wet insulation & using heat gun to dry the board's out.
Plan now is to lift as much insulation as possible & check all the joints as it might not only be this one which was leaking.
I'm currently hoping that the reason for the new rad not getting warm was this, however if it isn't any suggestions on what it might be?
Swapped brass olives for copper ones, nipped up to get the copper to bite, removed the coupling, PTFE & back on. Slowly filling system & boom, no leaks!
Started to fill the system, noticed it seemed to take ages however as I started to open the other radiator back into the system & remove the air it filled up a lot faster each time.
One thing I noticed was after all the rads were on, all the air bled, I turned the heating on, rads starting to get warm except the new one. Then old ones didn't feel as warm. Boiler pressure reading 0.
Horrible gut feeling something wasn't right & the gut was right. The Tee joining the radiator from my current bedroom was leaking. It's possible it's been leaking for a while as the system has struggled to maintain constant pressure for sometime & needing topping up every few weeks.
So rummaging around I touched the pipe & pisssssssss. Water everywhere, opened up a valve downstairs to drain but damage already done. Spent rest of the right removing wet insulation & using heat gun to dry the board's out.
Plan now is to lift as much insulation as possible & check all the joints as it might not only be this one which was leaking.
I'm currently hoping that the reason for the new rad not getting warm was this, however if it isn't any suggestions on what it might be?
Edited by bobski1 on Tuesday 7th July 07:20
Did you fit all the leaking pipework yourself, or is it original with solder/press fit stuff - and is it a leaky press fit joint? I seem to remember from your polished pipes installation that it was originally press fit - is that the case throughout, or is it a bad Yorkshire or other type of joint?
Not having much luck with this pipework are you OP? It's one of the most infuriating things plumbing, especially on old systems.
Every btl I buy which needs significant refurbishment I always rip the entire plumbing out and start fresh. Brand new fittings and pipeowork is a breeze vs matching old with new.
Every btl I buy which needs significant refurbishment I always rip the entire plumbing out and start fresh. Brand new fittings and pipeowork is a breeze vs matching old with new.
bobski1 said:
I'm currently hoping that the reason for the new rad not getting warm was this, however if it isn't any suggestions on what it might be?
If you've been topping it up you will have been diluting the inhibitor, if there was even any in the system - the rad could be blocked of partly blocked with gunk. Normally I would suggest trying a flush additive as a first step, but if you think it could be leaking in more than one spot then that wouldn't be a good idea at all at the minute!
Other option could be an airlock - My house has unnusual pipe runs and a few dog legs in places. I followed this to get the air out and worked a treat...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAeRurEExBs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAeRurEExBs
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