RE: £25k mega-hatches | Six of the Best
Discussion
Another_James said:
NGK210 said:
The Honda FK8 seems sooo good on paper, until you do some research:
They overheat during hot weather (c. 30degC and above), especially during trackdays.
Gearbox roulette, and if yours is duff, its faults will be myriad. And Honda won’t honour its warranty.
Much of that purposeful-looking venting is actually cosmetic and/or ineffectual (overheating).
So, as you trundle along with the engine in limp mode because it’s summer, while trying to get the gearbox to select a ratio and/or stay in gear, you realise you’re driving the car equivalent of padding your Calvins with socks. Magnificent.
I’ve owned and tracked an FK8 type R for more than a year now and have done a lot of research into the potential of it overheating on track. Basically issues seem very rare with the weather we have in the U.K. and it’s much more prevalent in USA, seemingly gearbox issues as well. Never seen a report of anybody overheating one on road anywhere. And when in the rare case they overheat we are talking a few mins of limp mode if you’ve been stupid enough not to let off with the temp gauge pegged. Never seen a report of a failure even when tuned beyond 400bhp.They overheat during hot weather (c. 30degC and above), especially during trackdays.
Gearbox roulette, and if yours is duff, its faults will be myriad. And Honda won’t honour its warranty.
Much of that purposeful-looking venting is actually cosmetic and/or ineffectual (overheating).
So, as you trundle along with the engine in limp mode because it’s summer, while trying to get the gearbox to select a ratio and/or stay in gear, you realise you’re driving the car equivalent of padding your Calvins with socks. Magnificent.
Mine has been perfect (except a couple of interior rattles) but I would be more hesitant to recommend it if you are planning to extensively track it in warmer climates than we have.
I’m at Donington Park tomorrow so if it explodes I’ll be sure to post up pics ??
Edited by Another_James on Sunday 12th July 08:24
s m said:
I had a friend who owned 3 Mk1 MR2s in a row - he loved them and they always seemed to handle so well. I had the 309 GTi ( about 3 friends had the 1.9 205s ) and I honestly don’t think there’d have been more than a gnat’s breath between them ( or a 205 1.6/1.9 ) on any of the roads we used to drive them on
When CAR mag used to time road cars round the fast but fairly bumpy Combe circuit in the 80s the MR2 was a second quicker than the 1.6 115bhp 205 over an 80 second lap. I suspect it would have been a few tenths at most over a lap for the 1.9 and MR2 either way
Autocar loved the Mk1 MR2 they had at a Handling Day
Said friend tried a Mk2 MR2 when he had his last Mk1 and didn’t like that.
I think the big plus of the 205/309 GTis was the extra stuff/people you could cart about. I guess the big plus for my friend on having the MR2 was he never had to drive on a night out!
They are fantastic cars, the steering is lovely and they are just tiny on the road.
NGK210 said:
Another_James said:
I’ve owned and tracked an FK8 type R for more than a year now and have done a lot of research into the potential of it overheating on track. Basically issues seem very rare with the weather we have in the U.K. and it’s much more prevalent in USA, seemingly gearbox issues as well. Never seen a report of anybody overheating one on road anywhere. And when in the rare case they overheat we are talking a few mins of limp mode if you’ve been stupid enough not to let off with the temp gauge pegged. Never seen a report of a failure even when tuned beyond 400bhp.
Mine has been perfect (except a couple of interior rattles) but I would be more hesitant to recommend it if you are planning to extensively track it in warmer climates than we have...
Glad your FK8 is a good ’un Mine has been perfect (except a couple of interior rattles) but I would be more hesitant to recommend it if you are planning to extensively track it in warmer climates than we have...
Overheating arguably first flagged in 2015 by German car mag Auto Motor Und Sport road test of FK2 Type-R (in essence, same engine and gearbox as FK8):
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/test/honda-civ...
And here’s Car & Driver mag’s July 2020 30,000-mile update re. its FK8 Type-R long-termer, which discusses trackday overheating. Also worth noting this comment: “It also feels as if the second-gear synchro might be starting to resist our most aggressive advances.” Full article here:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.caranddriver.co...
In a PH FK8-related post on 27.05.20, FK8 owner Derek Chevalier wrote:
“I think anything more than an ambient of 15 degrees and you are hitting the limits of the standard cooling. I was at Bedford last summer when it was around 22 and the temperature gauge was near the top so I came back in to cool off. I was hitting 132 down the straight. I was back on a cold January day and hit 137 - big difference.“
Another FK2/FK8 gearbox thread:
https://www.civinfo.com/threads/type-r-gearbox-iss...
And another:
https://www.civinfo.com/threads/lost-1st-gear.4204...
Worth considering that Honda has some history with gearbox design faults, as this vid explains:
https://youtu.be/5v_j9Ct2jrQ?t=347
All FK8 Type-R engines are built in the USA, the gearboxes in Japan, with final assembly in sunny Swindon. So, there’s no potential build quality variation due to regional origin – eg, Portugal-built VWs good; Germany-built VWs not so much.
So, for the most part FK8s are good, but spare the beans during hot weather and for Gawd’s sake get an independent warranty that covers gearboxes – because Honda’s won’t.
Tbh I’m just gonna keep using it how I have been and if it gets a bit hot on track I’ll back off for a lap or so. And I’ll not give it a second thought on the road.
Obviously all cars have faults and weak points but Honda owners forums seem notable to me for how few and relatively minor problems are. Very different to my personal experience with BMW for example.
SidewaysSi said:
Some HH drivers are a sensitive bunch aren't they? And I have a video do I? What are you on about?
Actually, I do make videos but they tend to have me with multiple naked women in them and none of the ladies much care for a hot hatch.
And yes, the Audi is junk. Sorry.
The BMW would be the winner for me if it was a manual and had a few grand spent on it at Birds.
You've never driven a properly sorted RS3 and that's ok. Out of the box they are a bit numb but a tune and thicker rear sway bar and they're fantastic, will properly rotate mid-corner and very very few cars on the road will see where it goes. Probably not great on the track but not built for that.Actually, I do make videos but they tend to have me with multiple naked women in them and none of the ladies much care for a hot hatch.
And yes, the Audi is junk. Sorry.
The BMW would be the winner for me if it was a manual and had a few grand spent on it at Birds.
Water Fairy said:
Driver101 said:
Aren't they really outdated since they are based on the very old MK5 Golf?
What's that got to do with anything? MK5 Golf was a nice set up chassis wise and just because a car is older doesn't mean it isn't good.I'm sure people reading the classifieds and seeing 2018 cars wouldn't realise that it's a very old car under the skin.
Driver101 said:
Water Fairy said:
Driver101 said:
Aren't they really outdated since they are based on the very old MK5 Golf?
What's that got to do with anything? MK5 Golf was a nice set up chassis wise and just because a car is older doesn't mean it isn't good.I'm sure people reading the classifieds and seeing 2018 cars wouldn't realise that it's a very old car under the skin.
tril said:
SidewaysSi said:
Some HH drivers are a sensitive bunch aren't they? And I have a video do I? What are you on about?
Actually, I do make videos but they tend to have me with multiple naked women in them and none of the ladies much care for a hot hatch.
And yes, the Audi is junk. Sorry.
The BMW would be the winner for me if it was a manual and had a few grand spent on it at Birds.
You've never driven a properly sorted RS3 and that's ok. Out of the box they are a bit numb but a tune and thicker rear sway bar and they're fantastic, will properly rotate mid-corner and very very few cars on the road will see where it goes. Probably not great on the track but not built for that.Actually, I do make videos but they tend to have me with multiple naked women in them and none of the ladies much care for a hot hatch.
And yes, the Audi is junk. Sorry.
The BMW would be the winner for me if it was a manual and had a few grand spent on it at Birds.
biggbn said:
Driver101 said:
Water Fairy said:
Driver101 said:
Aren't they really outdated since they are based on the very old MK5 Golf?
What's that got to do with anything? MK5 Golf was a nice set up chassis wise and just because a car is older doesn't mean it isn't good.I'm sure people reading the classifieds and seeing 2018 cars wouldn't realise that it's a very old car under the skin.
DoubleD said:
biggbn said:
Driver101 said:
Water Fairy said:
Driver101 said:
Aren't they really outdated since they are based on the very old MK5 Golf?
What's that got to do with anything? MK5 Golf was a nice set up chassis wise and just because a car is older doesn't mean it isn't good.I'm sure people reading the classifieds and seeing 2018 cars wouldn't realise that it's a very old car under the skin.
Water Fairy said:
And let's be honest, if you're gonna track any bog standard road car you have to expect the odd issue, regardless of whether it's performance model or not. Road cars are always a compromise.
Your logic is compelling; alas Honda’s is not. Honda’s main marketing mantra for the FK2 and FK8 was/is ‘A Race Car for the Road!’
Honda funds a series of apparently lo-fi, smartphone-filmed vlogs by some ‘yo, keep it real dudes’-style bellend, who must be on commission for each time says, “Remember, this is a race car for the road!”
Honda recently released a vid of a showroom *cough* spec FK8 breaking the Suzuka lap record (during a cold February early evening).
The latest, 2020 updated FK8’s infotainment has a sub-menu for track-days, with lap timing, data logging, and analysis tools that would embarrass an early ’90s F1 team.
At best Honda’s marketing dept is deluded, at worst it thinks its customers are very naïve.
NGK210 said:
Water Fairy said:
And let's be honest, if you're gonna track any bog standard road car you have to expect the odd issue, regardless of whether it's performance model or not. Road cars are always a compromise.
Your logic is compelling; alas Honda’s is not. Honda’s main marketing mantra for the FK2 and FK8 was/is ‘A Race Car for the Road!’
Honda funds a series of apparently lo-fi, smartphone-filmed vlogs by some ‘yo, keep it real dudes’-style bellend, who must be on commission for each time says, “Remember, this is a race car for the road!”
Honda recently released a vid of a showroom *cough* spec FK8 breaking the Suzuka lap record (during a cold February early evening).
The latest, 2020 updated FK8’s infotainment has a sub-menu for track-days, with lap timing, data logging, and analysis tools that would embarrass an early ’90s F1 team.
At best Honda’s marketing dept is deluded, at worst it thinks its customers are very naïve.
SidewaysSi said:
tril said:
SidewaysSi said:
Some HH drivers are a sensitive bunch aren't they? And I have a video do I? What are you on about?
Actually, I do make videos but they tend to have me with multiple naked women in them and none of the ladies much care for a hot hatch.
And yes, the Audi is junk. Sorry.
The BMW would be the winner for me if it was a manual and had a few grand spent on it at Birds.
You've never driven a properly sorted RS3 and that's ok. Out of the box they are a bit numb but a tune and thicker rear sway bar and they're fantastic, will properly rotate mid-corner and very very few cars on the road will see where it goes. Probably not great on the track but not built for that.Actually, I do make videos but they tend to have me with multiple naked women in them and none of the ladies much care for a hot hatch.
And yes, the Audi is junk. Sorry.
The BMW would be the winner for me if it was a manual and had a few grand spent on it at Birds.
Another_James said:
Why do think Honda won’t cover a gearbox failure during the warranty period?
Because in all the FK2/FK8 gearbox threads I researched, and there are many, everyone reports the same Honda MO: owner reports fault; dealer has car in for testing; dealer reports ‘no fault found’ (NFF) or blames the owner’s gear-changing technique and cites fair wear and tear. All had to fund the replacement / repair themselves.
Amusingly, when one owner received an NFF verdict he demanded a test drive with a Honda mechanic, when the synchro crunched the mechanic said, “You’re changing gear too quickly.”
Another owner had the same NFF verdict, also went for a test drive with a Honda mechanic, when the ‘box crunched, he said: “You’re changing gear too slowly.” Really.
Another_James said:
Obviously all cars have faults and weak points but Honda owners forums seem notable to me for how few and relatively minor problems are. Very different to my personal experience with BMW for example.
Indeed, which is why IMHO the FK2/FK8 is so frustrating – all other aspects are as reliable and hassle-free as a Blancpain, apart from these two Achilles’ heels: the possible long-term effects of heat soak, and a potentially heeoooge bill for a replacement gearbox, which could fail again. And again. (In case anyone has any doubt – I’m oot.)biggbn said:
SidewaysSi said:
tril said:
SidewaysSi said:
Some HH drivers are a sensitive bunch aren't they? And I have a video do I? What are you on about?
Actually, I do make videos but they tend to have me with multiple naked women in them and none of the ladies much care for a hot hatch.
And yes, the Audi is junk. Sorry.
The BMW would be the winner for me if it was a manual and had a few grand spent on it at Birds.
You've never driven a properly sorted RS3 and that's ok. Out of the box they are a bit numb but a tune and thicker rear sway bar and they're fantastic, will properly rotate mid-corner and very very few cars on the road will see where it goes. Probably not great on the track but not built for that.Actually, I do make videos but they tend to have me with multiple naked women in them and none of the ladies much care for a hot hatch.
And yes, the Audi is junk. Sorry.
The BMW would be the winner for me if it was a manual and had a few grand spent on it at Birds.
The BMW has RWD and a 6 cylinder engine as it’s USP. The RS4 has 4WD. I’d always go RWD as I’m a child who likes a bit of oversteer occasionally and doesn’t care too much about rear legroom as my passengers are under 6.
NGK210 said:
Another_James said:
Why do think Honda won’t cover a gearbox failure during the warranty period?
Because in all the FK2/FK8 gearbox threads I researched, and there are many, everyone reports the same Honda MO: owner reports fault; dealer has car in for testing; dealer reports ‘no fault found’ (NFF) or blames the owner’s gear-changing technique and cites fair wear and tear. All had to fund the replacement / repair themselves.
Amusingly, when one owner received an NFF verdict he demanded a test drive with a Honda mechanic, when the synchro crunched the mechanic said, “You’re changing gear too quickly.”
Another owner had the same NFF verdict, also went for a test drive with a Honda mechanic, when the ‘box crunched, he said: “You’re changing gear too slowly.” Really.
Another_James said:
Obviously all cars have faults and weak points but Honda owners forums seem notable to me for how few and relatively minor problems are. Very different to my personal experience with BMW for example.
Indeed, which is why IMHO the FK2/FK8 is so frustrating – all other aspects are as reliable and hassle-free as a Blancpain, apart from these two Achilles’ heels: the possible long-term effects of heat soak, and a potentially heeoooge bill for a replacement gearbox, which could fail again. And again. (In case anyone has any doubt – I’m oot.)biggbn said:
You don't like em very much, do you?
I just loathe companies that pretend to have a guiding ethos of engineering integrity and claim to be honourable. But when found to be otherwise, hide behind a wall of marketing BS and denial, basically saying to its punters: “Fur Q!”And before any genius chimes in with “it’s called capitalism”, compare Hyundai’s response to a similar gearbox saga:
There’re multiple complaints re. i30N gearbox lockouts in 5th and 6th. If an owner complains to a dealer, the car is promptly booked in for new 5th and 6th cog sets that have upgraded synchro. All done under warranty, with no ifs or buts from Hyundai.
Fur Q Honda!
NGK210 said:
biggbn said:
You don't like em very much, do you?
I just loathe companies that pretend to have a guiding ethos of engineering integrity and claim to be honourable. But when found to be otherwise, hide behind a wall of marketing BS and denial, basically saying to its punters: “Fur Q!”And before any genius chimes in with “it’s called capitalism”, compare Hyundai’s response to a similar gearbox saga:
There’re multiple complaints re. i30N gearbox lockouts in 5th and 6th. If an owner complains to a dealer, the car is promptly booked in for new 5th and 6th cog sets that have upgraded synchro. All done under warranty, with no ifs or buts from Hyundai.
Fur Q Honda!
t, but there you go. Many owners on here had zero issues which matches the (relatively isolated?) issues you have highlighted. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff