What’s the future hold for us petrol heads?

[TheRainMaker]

A hydrogen car was sat next to me at the lights a few months ago, couldn’t miss it, it had writing all over it something about Imperial College and Toyota linking together on the side of it.

[Bobskirs6]

I think once solid state batteries come online and mass produced its game over for ICE.

Until then I do not think there is much to worry about as the time frame will keep getting pushed back and we will see some brands adopting electric only or 90 of their fleet and other brands will continue to run just ICE or hybrids.

[MikeDB1]

Max_Torque said:

For the final time

HYDROGEN FUEL CELLS CARS HAVE A BATTERY!!!

Actually the best ones don't. They have a supercapacitor array which is charged both from the fuel cell and from the brakes.

South Korea, Germany and Japan have all committed to hydrogen as the primary source of fuel for cars. And guess who makes a large proportion of the world's cars ... yes South Korea, Germany and Japan.

All three countries have one thing in common - few natural resources to generate electricity with unless they go nuclear which all three are against. So importing hydrogen made using sunlight in the desert areas of the world such as the Middle East and Australian outback is the obvious alternative.

[kambites]

MikeDB1 said:

South Korea, Germany and Japan have all committed to hydrogen as the primary source of fuel for cars.

They really haven't. The Germans have been one by one abandoning their hydrogen fuel projects for cars, although some companies are still working on it for haulage and heavy industry; the Koreans are hedging their bets but putting far more effort into BEVs than HFCEVs. Only the Japanese are really still putting much effort into fuel cells now.

The latest company I know of to abandon Hydrogen were Mercedes: https://electrek.co/2020/04/22/daimler-ends-hydrog...

Fuel cells are, for personal transportation, a niche idea which is slowly dying out. By the time we have the energy generation to have a chance of transitioning mass transportation to hydrogen, there wont be any point in doing so.

Don't get me wrong, hydrogen certainly has its place as an energy store, but it's not in the majority of personal cars.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 16th July 18:05

[kambites]

Bobskirs6 said:

Until then I do not think there is much to worry about as the time frame will keep getting pushed back and we will see some brands adopting electric only or 90 of their fleet and other brands will continue to run just ICE or hybrids.

Manufacturers would love to continue with ICE, I don't think governments will let them.

[Johner]

NMNeil said:

wizzard450 said:

Talking with a mate and we were saying how we are all going to be forced to drive electric things in the near future.

With the talks of banning petrol and diesel Sales by 2035 and going zero carbon by 2050, its not looking great for us.

Will we be able to hold onto our loved petrol motors even after 2050? Fuel prices will continue to rise to un affordable prices, practically forcing us to move to electric. But what about us that like running cheap sheds? There will have to be huge incentives to make the regular low earner go to electric or us that just use our cars on a weekend. Battery lifespan about 10 years, unless there’s a huge breakthrough in battery technology I don’t see it been viable....

Thoughts?

One aspect not talked about will be actually buying petrol and diesel.
I can see petrol stations slowly removing pumps and putting in electric charging stations. These stations will need more power than the grid can supply so you will start having roads dug up to lay the charging cables, roads dug up again so the f**ksticks can steal the cables for their copper content.
I see a 180 degree turn around to go from electric charging stations being few and far between to garages that still sell petrol being the rarity.
(Just the rantings of someone who's been stuck inside for days, because the outside temps are staying around 45C)

A valid point, but, to fill with petrol or diesel takes about 5 minutes now that we have pay at pump.
To fill up with electrickery, takes 45 minutes as a minimum.
Therefore, to make money and get the numbers of customers through the forecourt, either;
- Each fossil fuel pump will need to be replaced with at least 8 or 9 charging point
- Prices for electrickery at these places will need to be prohibitively expensive.

It's more likely, many garages will stop selling fuel but not take up charging point options and big forecourts will disappear.

And, and, there are a number of charger types and plugs, so, multiple charge points will be needed where currently, one pump fits all.

[Johner]

MikeDB1 said:

Max_Torque said:

For the final time

HYDROGEN FUEL CELLS CARS HAVE A BATTERY!!!

Actually the best ones don't. They have a supercapacitor array which is charged both from the fuel cell and from the brakes.

South Korea, Germany and Japan have all committed to hydrogen as the primary source of fuel for cars. And guess who makes a large proportion of the world's cars ... yes South Korea, Germany and Japan.

All three countries have one thing in common - few natural resources to generate electricity with unless they go nuclear which all three are against. So importing hydrogen made using sunlight in the desert areas of the world such as the Middle East and Australian outback is the obvious alternative.

Hydrogen is the only sustainable long term solution
Yes, it's currently expensive to produce hydrogen
Yes, it needs some tough storage solutions
But, given the potential money to be made, nothing is beyond the wit of man and the investment of the well of businesses that have the money to support the development

[kambites]

Johner said:

Hydrogen is the only sustainable long term solution

The only truly sustainable long term solution is to massively cut down on the amount we travel.

The next best thing, with both current and likely short-term future technology, is BEV.

[CABC]

kambites said:

The only truly sustainable long term solution is to massively cut down on the amount we travel.

and have less offspring.

problem is that humans have never, ever, voluntarily cut back. so i suggest we either find a technological solution to keep people happy (and the bigger problem of the billions emerging as 'middle class') or else they'll be one of those involuntary historical episodes thrust upon us. a bit negative i know, but as a race we can't get enough stuff.

[otolith]

Johner said:

Hydrogen is the only sustainable long term solution

Please show your working.

[otolith]

CABC said:

and have less offspring.

We’re doing that, but apparently that’s a bad thing

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521

[kambites]

otolith said:

CABC said:

and have less offspring.

We’re doing that, but apparently that’s a bad thing

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521

It's a bad thing for mid-term human society. It's a good thing for the environment in the longer term.

[GT119]

Not this again. The frothers so keen to stick it to BEVs can’t see through their blinkers. The article describes the opportunities that possibly exist for hydrogen use in buses, trucks and trains. BEVs are by far the best solution for passenger cars.

[GT119]

otolith said:

Johner said:

Hydrogen is the only sustainable long term solution

Please show your working.

Quite. The single most important criteria for sustainability is end-to-end energy efficiency, granted it’s a fairly complex aspect to grasp fully, but it should be fairly clear to anyone who is willing to properly compare the two approaches rather then just parroting sensationalist claptrap that hydrogen is horribly inefficient. Lump on top of that the technical challenges relating to safety and storage, increased equipment complexity and maintenance requirements and you’ve got yourself a very poor second place to BEVs.

[RJUK]

For me, personally, I went electric with my latest car, being that it's a company car and attracts a 0% BIK, but also for all the benefits of a BEV over an ICE car. For me, the only downside of my EV is the lack of a characterful noise. However, my last two cars before I went electric were diesels, so I'm not missing much. I'd rather the silence of my EV than the clatter of a diesel. Getting in the wife's turbo petrol now feels like going back in time - it feels agricultural by comparison.

For everything other than noise the EV is better. It's the fastest accelerating car I've ever had, and thanks to being unrestricted from the factory is also the fastest car I've ever had on the top end. Having the battery in the floor gives it a good centre of gravity and it has immense 4WD grip. That's not even mentioning the infotainment system that is way ahead of anything I've previously had. It also has a great stereo, somewhat making up for the lack of noise from the engine.

I wanted to get one now, as I figure that the instant acceleration and mental torque from 0rpms will be entertaining when the majority of other cars on the road are ICE cars. Overtaking ICE cars is just comically easy. Once all cars are electric and have these same benefits, I suspect the joys of instantaneous acceleration may wear off to a degree.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I'd probably buy a few Teslas for daily family uses, but I know for certain the cars I'd be most excited to buy would be ICE supercars. (I'm a sucker for the sound of a V10 and I'd have at least one Hemi in the garage.)

However, without that lottery money there's nothing for me, personally, that can touch the EV I have. It does family duties just fine, but is quicker than my boss' brand new 911 Carrera 4S, yet costs me less than £4 to "fill the tank", which should get me around 250 - 300 miles.

Couple that with very little servicing and no need to "warm up the engine" before driving in a spirited fashion and I can live without the noise.

[Electric]

I am a Petrol Head and have owned and driven some great performance cars over the last 20+years-I recently was able to drive an Audi Etron and a Tesla 3 performance both almost exciting cars to drive . Accepting all the negatives of presently owning an EC even I was mightily impressed, nothing I have owned or driven would accelerate like the Tesla and with so little fuss. I think it won’t be the end or the world when we have to drive Electric, there are also some advantages, you can see I am becoming converted.

[Leon R]

Not once have I gone out for a drive just for fun and thought 'this experience would be better if the engine didn't make any noise and I didn't have to change gear'.

Totally see why you would want that during a slog down the M25 but that isn't a drive for fun.

[Terminator X]

RJUK said:

For me, personally, I went electric with my latest car, being that it's a company car and attracts a 0% BIK, but also for all the benefits of a BEV over an ICE car. For me, the only downside of my EV is the lack of a characterful noise. However, my last two cars before I went electric were diesels, so I'm not missing much. I'd rather the silence of my EV than the clatter of a diesel. Getting in the wife's turbo petrol now feels like going back in time - it feels agricultural by comparison.

For everything other than noise the EV is better. It's the fastest accelerating car I've ever had, and thanks to being unrestricted from the factory is also the fastest car I've ever had on the top end. Having the battery in the floor gives it a good centre of gravity and it has immense 4WD grip. That's not even mentioning the infotainment system that is way ahead of anything I've previously had. It also has a great stereo, somewhat making up for the lack of noise from the engine.

I wanted to get one now, as I figure that the instant acceleration and mental torque from 0rpms will be entertaining when the majority of other cars on the road are ICE cars. Overtaking ICE cars is just comically easy. Once all cars are electric and have these same benefits, I suspect the joys of instantaneous acceleration may wear off to a degree.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I'd probably buy a few Teslas for daily family uses, but I know for certain the cars I'd be most excited to buy would be ICE supercars. (I'm a sucker for the sound of a V10 and I'd have at least one Hemi in the garage.)

However, without that lottery money there's nothing for me, personally, that can touch the EV I have. It does family duties just fine, but is quicker than my boss' brand new 911 Carrera 4S, yet costs me less than £4 to "fill the tank", which should get me around 250 - 300 miles.

Couple that with very little servicing and no need to "warm up the engine" before driving in a spirited fashion and I can live without the noise.

Thankfully you guys remain in the minority, hastening us toward a very dull future.

TX.

PS why the hardon with "savage acceleration"? Seems the way with the EV brigade. I can't say I spend my time out accelerating every car on the road even though I could. Strange.

[Uggers]

RJUK said:

For me, personally, I went electric with my latest car, being that it's a company car and attracts a 0% BIK, but also for all the benefits of a BEV over an ICE car. For me, the only downside of my EV is the lack of a characterful noise. However, my last two cars before I went electric were diesels, so I'm not missing much. I'd rather the silence of my EV than the clatter of a diesel. Getting in the wife's turbo petrol now feels like going back in time - it feels agricultural by comparison.

For everything other than noise the EV is better. It's the fastest accelerating car I've ever had, and thanks to being unrestricted from the factory is also the fastest car I've ever had on the top end.


If I won the lottery tomorrow I'd probably buy a few Teslas for daily family uses

Sorry I'm not putting it into separate comments and cutting out a lot of what you said.
But primarily looking at your comments it would be fair to say that your motives are primarily financial? Also comparing to somewhat lacklustre diesels and characterless 4 pot petrol turbo of a VAG flavour?

I'd like to see EV compete with ICE on an even pitch. Rather than supported by government green policy. If they are so good let them stand up on their own merits. But even with current subsidies they are still prohibitively expensive for the non company directors amongst us.

In this thread we are talking about the future for petrolheads not the future of EV.
Keeping a horse can be more expensive than having the latest RS on your drive. Yet people like it, and more importantly judging by the amount of stabling near us is a very popular pastime.

Steam engines are well past their peak, yet millions of people pay large amounts of money to spend the day in a carriage pulled by one. No one is interested in the superfast, super efficient, quiet electrical trains. They do their job and no one gives them a 2nd thought.
It's the noise, the smells, the sensations that steam creates that appeals to them.

This will be the case with (good) petrol powered cars I reckon. They will always hold an appeal and will always be about. The proliferation of EV white goods will serve to make the difference even more stark between the 2. It isn't going anywhere just because everyone has discovered EVs.

[rjg48]