What’s the future hold for us petrol heads?

[anonymous-user]

MikeDB1 said:

Actually the best ones don't. They have a supercapacitor array which is charged both from the fuel cell and from the brakes.

This seems even more unlikely than using a battery to me. Possible, of course, but sensible no!

1) Capacitor energy density is even worse than a battery, because a capacitor stores charge directly, unlike a chemical battery than converts the electical energy into potential chemical energy. So you need a massive and expensive capacitor, super or not, to store a small amount of energy.

2) The energy a capacitor stores is proportional to the voltage of that capacitor. Unilke for a chemical battery, where the chemical reaction drives a reasonably constant voltage, in order to access electrical energy from a capacitor you MUST be able to do this at a range of voltages, ideally down to zero volts. Take typical lithium cell, considered "flat" at around 3.7 volts and completely "full" at 4.2v, a working range of half a volt, ie it is able to access all it's energy across just 12% of it's maximum potential. A capacitor needs to swing its voltage by 100% to access 100% of its energy. This means that interfacing a capacitor to an electric motor, itself a device with a wide operating voltage (this time proportinal to rotational speed) is tricky, and expensive. It;s also completely arse about face. At zero speed, with a full capacitor, you start your acceleration, Initally, when you don't need it because the motor back emf is low,you have a very high capacitor voltage, so you need a large reduction ratio on your voltage conversion device. Then as the vehicle accelerates, the capacitor discharges, its voltage falls proportionally, but at the same time the car speeds up, so the motor needs more and more votlage to overcome its backemf. Suddenly you either need a massive step UP voltage ratio, or to be able to field weaken the crap out of your poor motor. And with braking, its the other way around. At high speeds, you have a low voltage capacitor, so must carefully control the current into that capacitor, but at low speeds, when the motor's back emf is low, you now have to try to regen against a higher capacitor voltage. This, i can tell you from experience, is a really non-optimum situation


Now yes, you of course can make it work physically, but as far as i am aware nobody has for any kind of practical production or even limited volume technology demonstrator car using capacitors, simply because the expense and complexity are high, and the efficiency low (every time you "change" a voltage you loose a bit!). Suddenly your car not only needs all the complex hydrogen fuel cell stuff, but also a massive, bi-directional DC/DC converter with a huge voltage ratio capability. And because capacitors have a high leakage and self dicharge and a small total energy storage, you still need some sort of battery to enable you to power up and start your fuel cell for a practical car that is left parked for a while sometimes.

All that and you then find that supercapacitors are extremely expensive too, so your "super capacitor" bank costs three times as much as just using a chemical battery that is 3 times simpler, stores 10 times as much energy, is at least as powerful, and requires no such complex voltage conversion in order to actually make it work, and returns significantly better economy in the first place because it is more efficient overall.........

[FiF]

Uggers said:

RJUK said:

For me, personally, I went electric with my latest car, being that it's a company car and attracts a 0% BIK, but also for all the benefits of a BEV over an ICE car. For me, the only downside of my EV is the lack of a characterful noise. However, my last two cars before I went electric were diesels, so I'm not missing much. I'd rather the silence of my EV than the clatter of a diesel. Getting in the wife's turbo petrol now feels like going back in time - it feels agricultural by comparison.

For everything other than noise the EV is better. It's the fastest accelerating car I've ever had, and thanks to being unrestricted from the factory is also the fastest car I've ever had on the top end.


If I won the lottery tomorrow I'd probably buy a few Teslas for daily family uses

Sorry I'm not putting it into separate comments and cutting out a lot of what you said.
But primarily looking at your comments it would be fair to say that your motives are primarily financial? Also comparing to somewhat lacklustre diesels and characterless 4 pot petrol turbo of a VAG flavour?

I'd like to see EV compete with ICE on an even pitch. Rather than supported by government green policy. If they are so good let them stand up on their own merits. But even with current subsidies they are still prohibitively expensive for the non company directors amongst us.

In this thread we are talking about the future for petrolheads not the future of EV.
Keeping a horse can be more expensive than having the latest RS on your drive. Yet people like it, and more importantly judging by the amount of stabling near us is a very popular pastime.

Steam engines are well past their peak, yet millions of people pay large amounts of money to spend the day in a carriage pulled by one. No one is interested in the superfast, super efficient, quiet electrical trains. They do their job and no one gives them a 2nd thought.
It's the noise, the smells, the sensations that steam creates that appeals to them.

This will be the case with (good) petrol powered cars I reckon. They will always hold an appeal and will always be about. The proliferation of EV white goods will serve to make the difference even more stark between the 2. It isn't going anywhere just because everyone has discovered EVs.

At last, a post which gets the thread back on topic, highlighted a couple of important bits.

The good vehicles will survive and be cherished. There will also be some not so good vehicles which survive kept by those people who have a special affinity for the marque or model. A lot of the dross from 80s and 90s will just go, Mk4 Escort anyone? Nope, didn't think so. The defining limit might well be stuff which is already on the historic (classic) register, there might be stuff newer which survives just because they are so good, BMW E46 M3 CSL anyone? Yep, thought as much.

Personally in my lifetime I can't see any Government having the balls or economic clout to ride out the consequences of an outright retrospective ban. They might make it expensive and awkward or limiting to run one, and are obviously in the process of preventing future new sales. They might make sales of liquid petrol even more expensive but it will become a measure of petrolheadedness as to whether to continue or not. As already identified there are a number of applications where EV is just not on the map, yet. The yet word added there purely to shut various posters up.

Not going to get into where regular transport is going as the BEV / Hydrogen / whatever tribal arguments are done to death. Certainly more of us will be in some sort of non ICE vehicle, and we will adapt to use whatever makes the most sense, practically and economically. Personally as before currently think the industry is on a wrong track, cars that weigh too much, too tall, loads of shiny complicated twaddle distracting the driver and the principle feature being how stupidly rapidly they reach an artificially low speed limit determined by some shiny arsed twonk sat in an office is just a bit sad. Shame on you.

[jamoor]

Petrol heads will drive an ev during the week as the cost to run it will be dramatically lower than your petrol car.

They will probably have a petrol weekender but will suffer from range anxiety as there will be nowhere to fill it up.

[kambites]

That, to my mind, is the future for current petrolheads - an EV for commuting, ferrying the family around, etc. and a "classic" petrol car tinkering and fun. Of course getting hold of petrol will get harder, but I think as long as a generation which remembers internal combustion from their childhood remains, there will be enough demand to keep some supply going.

Who knows, maybe in 30 years time we'll be buying our petrol mail-order and it'll come delivered in a nice clean electric tanker to a tank in the garden which we can then use to fill the cars. A bit like heating oil.

Edited by kambites on Friday 17th July 06:52

[Hague]

The trouble is with EV cars from what I have studied, over their lifetime and with the battery elements that require mining they are actually more environmentally unfriendly and contribute more Co2 that iBE cars. I think the main issue is car users forever changing their cars for new ones. I’ve had my M3 for 17 years from, it’s perfectly maintained, contrast that my next door neighbour who in the same time period consumed no less than 12 new cars all of them rubbish and manufactured often on the other side of the world. My carbon footprint in comparison to his both in consumerism and environmental must be absolutely minuscule. So for all the people in a rush to swap their perfectly good ICE car for a new electric one Please realise you are consuming something else you don’t need and being environmentally unfriendly.

[CABC]

RJUK said:

For me, personally, I went electric with my latest car, being that it's a company car and attracts a 0% BIK, but also for all the benefits of a BEV over an ICE car. For me, the only downside of my EV is the lack of a characterful noise. However, my last two cars before I went electric were diesels, so I'm not missing much. I'd rather the silence of my EV than the clatter of a diesel. Getting in the wife's turbo petrol now feels like going back in time - it feels agricultural by comparison.

For everything other than noise the EV is better. It's the fastest accelerating car I've ever had, and thanks to being unrestricted from the factory is also the fastest car I've ever had on the top end. Having the battery in the floor gives it a good centre of gravity and it has immense 4WD grip. That's not even mentioning the infotainment system that is way ahead of anything I've previously had. It also has a great stereo, somewhat making up for the lack of noise from the engine.

I wanted to get one now, as I figure that the instant acceleration and mental torque from 0rpms will be entertaining when the majority of other cars on the road are ICE cars. Overtaking ICE cars is just comically easy. Once all cars are electric and have these same benefits, I suspect the joys of instantaneous acceleration may wear off to a degree.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I'd probably buy a few Teslas for daily family uses, but I know for certain the cars I'd be most excited to buy would be ICE supercars. (I'm a sucker for the sound of a V10 and I'd have at least one Hemi in the garage.)

However, without that lottery money there's nothing for me, personally, that can touch the EV I have. It does family duties just fine, but is quicker than my boss' brand new 911 Carrera 4S, yet costs me less than £4 to "fill the tank", which should get me around 250 - 300 miles.

Couple that with very little servicing and no need to "warm up the engine" before driving in a spirited fashion and I can live without the noise.

i want a BEV and it's clearly the future, but your post doesn't advance the PH credentials of BEV at all.
- you're clearly happy with the financials. great, next...
- great infotainment. (my favourite car doesn't even have this)
- immense 4wd grip is great for getting to the ski resort on time, not an immersive driving experience.
- same for instant acceleration and mental torque.

i get the joy of clean, instant torque, i really do. but i want more from my cars, to the extent i don't even value immense torque or power in ICE either. Audi make the ICE equivalent of what you've highlighted and they have no appeal either. many on here like simple point & squirt, for others there's more to it.

with batteries being placed low and centrally i do think an entertaining car will come. not too far away.

[RJUK]

Terminator X said:

RJUK said:

For me, personally, I went electric with my latest car, being that it's a company car and attracts a 0% BIK, but also for all the benefits of a BEV over an ICE car. For me, the only downside of my EV is the lack of a characterful noise. However, my last two cars before I went electric were diesels, so I'm not missing much. I'd rather the silence of my EV than the clatter of a diesel. Getting in the wife's turbo petrol now feels like going back in time - it feels agricultural by comparison.

For everything other than noise the EV is better. It's the fastest accelerating car I've ever had, and thanks to being unrestricted from the factory is also the fastest car I've ever had on the top end. Having the battery in the floor gives it a good centre of gravity and it has immense 4WD grip. That's not even mentioning the infotainment system that is way ahead of anything I've previously had. It also has a great stereo, somewhat making up for the lack of noise from the engine.

I wanted to get one now, as I figure that the instant acceleration and mental torque from 0rpms will be entertaining when the majority of other cars on the road are ICE cars. Overtaking ICE cars is just comically easy. Once all cars are electric and have these same benefits, I suspect the joys of instantaneous acceleration may wear off to a degree.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I'd probably buy a few Teslas for daily family uses, but I know for certain the cars I'd be most excited to buy would be ICE supercars. (I'm a sucker for the sound of a V10 and I'd have at least one Hemi in the garage.)

However, without that lottery money there's nothing for me, personally, that can touch the EV I have. It does family duties just fine, but is quicker than my boss' brand new 911 Carrera 4S, yet costs me less than £4 to "fill the tank", which should get me around 250 - 300 miles.

Couple that with very little servicing and no need to "warm up the engine" before driving in a spirited fashion and I can live without the noise.

Thankfully you guys remain in the minority, hastening us toward a very dull future.

TX.

PS why the hardon with "savage acceleration"? Seems the way with the EV brigade. I can't say I spend my time out accelerating every car on the road even though I could. Strange.

Not really. I'm not hastening anybody to anything - the government is mandating this as a means to save us from global warming. (Not that I believe just getting everyone to drive EVs is going to be anywhere near enough.) As I say, if I won the lottery I'd be straight out buying ICE cars, but personally I can't afford to have a second car, nor do I get the time to go out and just drive for the sake of it. From what's available now, the EV I chose couldn't be beaten as a daily. I personally have great fun driving it - that instant acceleration is addictive and my car has quick steering and a decently sporty drive. Is it as pared-down and chuckable as my old MX-5, of course not, but it's a lot quicker and has numerous other benefits. You don't get the hard on for powerful, instant acceleration, but that's always been an attractive feature of a performance car. I don't get the hard-on for shifting cogs around. I've had plenty of manual cars in my time, but I don't feel any joy was lost when I got an automatic and then an EV.

I don't see why the assumption is that EVs will mean a very dull future. Sure, you won't get the sound, which sucks in some ways, but will hopefully mean less fartboxes making a ton of noise after I put the kids to bed.

Otherwise, the likes of Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc will be making EVs and I'm sure will do a sufficient job of making them exciting to drive/sporty/etc.

[Leon R]

This is not mean't to be an insult but if you don't enjoy the sound, changing gears or working on ICE cars and you don't have time to drive for pleasure then what is it that makes you a "petrolhead"?

[jamoor]

Hague said:

The trouble is with EV cars from what I have studied, over their lifetime and with the battery elements that require mining they are actually more environmentally unfriendly and contribute more Co2 that iBE cars. I think the main issue is car users forever changing their cars for new ones. I’ve had my M3 for 17 years from, it’s perfectly maintained, contrast that my next door neighbour who in the same time period consumed no less than 12 new cars all of them rubbish and manufactured often on the other side of the world. My carbon footprint in comparison to his both in consumerism and environmental must be absolutely minuscule. So for all the people in a rush to swap their perfectly good ICE car for a new electric one Please realise you are consuming something else you don’t need and being environmentally unfriendly.

I’m really curious to know if there’s any truth in this?


Tesla claim their car will last half a million miles, you rarely hear of ICE cars lasting anywhere near as long so they should need replacement less frequently.
How does an ev contribute to more co2? There’s less components in the car, the tailpipe emissions are less aren’t they? Certainly in the U.K. a sizeable proportion of electrIcity is renewable and some energy providers claim their energy is 100% renewable

[RJUK]

Uggers said:

Sorry I'm not putting it into separate comments and cutting out a lot of what you said.
But primarily looking at your comments it would be fair to say that your motives are primarily financial? Also comparing to somewhat lacklustre diesels and characterless 4 pot petrol turbo of a VAG flavour?

I'd like to see EV compete with ICE on an even pitch. Rather than supported by government green policy. If they are so good let them stand up on their own merits. But even with current subsidies they are still prohibitively expensive for the non company directors amongst us.

In this thread we are talking about the future for petrolheads not the future of EV.
Keeping a horse can be more expensive than having the latest RS on your drive. Yet people like it, and more importantly judging by the amount of stabling near us is a very popular pastime.

Steam engines are well past their peak, yet millions of people pay large amounts of money to spend the day in a carriage pulled by one. No one is interested in the superfast, super efficient, quiet electrical trains. They do their job and no one gives them a 2nd thought.
It's the noise, the smells, the sensations that steam creates that appeals to them.

This will be the case with (good) petrol powered cars I reckon. They will always hold an appeal and will always be about. The proliferation of EV white goods will serve to make the difference even more stark between the 2. It isn't going anywhere just because everyone has discovered EVs.

No, that's not what I'm saying, at least not entirely. If it would cost the same to drive a AMG C63S as my EV then yeah, I'd probably have chosen the AMG - it's what I was looking at initially, but it wouldn't have been cheap to run... That sound though...

However, there's many positives to EVs.
You don't have to warm them up, so on my short commute I can use it properly. Not a problem I guess if you're the kind of person who gives it full beans on a cold engine, but I've always been mechanically sympathetic.

The batteries tend to be in the floor, giving a good centre of gravity.

Instant torque as soon as you touch the go pedal, from 0 rpms.

Better weight distribution as a whole, because you can have a motor on each axel and the batteries spread out in the middle, rather than one big lump of engine somewhere in the car.

Also the car weighs the same whether the "fuel tank" is full or empty. Not really a concern for driving on the road, but when EV racing gets more common I suspect it'll make it easier to set up suspension etc.

So it's not just monetary benefits. And the above is without mentioning the other tech gear on the car, because I'm sure nobody arguing the point for ICE cares about being able to stream Spotify or having a big screen sat nav.

As for what I've had previously, yes the diesels weren't interesting, though I had weirdly a lot of fun with the VW CC diesel that I bought as a family car when we had our first child. It was like driving a water bed in wheels with the dampers in comfort mode. Not remotely sporty, but somehow still fun.

As for the petrol cars, no, not a VAG 4 pot. I test drove a Golf R, but found it too dull, so I bought an M135i instead. I had come from a 135i coupe before that, with a fair number of performance modifications on it (Quaife diff, suspension upgrades and power upgrades.)

The M135i also got the Quaife and some suspension upgrades. Those cars were the nicest sounding cars I ever owned, especially the more heavily modified 135i coupe. Sadly I never got above 6 cylinders because it would've just cost a fortune to run on the longer commutes I had back then. The 135i and M135i were pretty frugal for their CC/power.

From the reactions I'm getting though, I think I need to make clear again that I'm just saying why I run one as a daily. Personally I find it a hoot to drive. This isn't to say that I wouldn't have an ICE. That's literally the first thing I'd go spend money on if I won a lottery jackpot.

But to say that all EVs are boring white goods just isn't true in my experience. My EV is one of the most fun cars I've had and that instant power is addictive.

Now if all you want to do is drive around slowly shifting cogs back and forth trying to gain some sort of kudos for driving a car that's more difficult to drive, then clearly an EV isn't for you. But driving an EV doesn't mean you can't be interested in cars.

[kambites]

jamoor said:

I’m really curious to know if there’s any truth in this?

I think the flaw in the argument comes from that idea that we'll mine all the battery chemicals for every new car. Right now almost every EV built is still on the roads but as and when they do start to be scrapped, the batteries will have to be recycled in some manner.

It's certainly true that replacing perfectly good old things with new things for the sake of environmental improvements tends to be a false economy, which is why the government is goiong down the right path with banning the sale of new ICE cars with no plans to forcefully remove the old ones from the road.

[RJUK]

CABC said:

i want a BEV and it's clearly the future, but your post doesn't advance the PH credentials of BEV at all.
- you're clearly happy with the financials. great, next...
- great infotainment. (my favourite car doesn't even have this)
- immense 4wd grip is great for getting to the ski resort on time, not an immersive driving experience.
- same for instant acceleration and mental torque.

i get the joy of clean, instant torque, i really do. but i want more from my cars, to the extent i don't even value immense torque or power in ICE either. Audi make the ICE equivalent of what you've highlighted and they have no appeal either. many on here like simple point & squirt, for others there's more to it.

with batteries being placed low and centrally i do think an entertaining car will come. not too far away.

How though? What "immersion" are you after? Most people that throw that around want to shift gears manually, since that seems to be the holy grail of car ownership to some. But that's not likely to crop up in EVs any time soon, as a ton of gears aren't necessary.

If you're on about steering feel, that's been on the way out since before the recent influx of EVs. Manufacturers have been converting over to electric steering for a while now and getting rid of feel in the process. The EV I have has a small steering wheel and a quick rack, and the wheel can be placed nice and low, which contributes to it (in my opinion) being good fun to drive.

If you want something slower with a manual and (I assume) lower traction limits and RWD, then I guess that will arrive in future, minus the manual transmission.

Personally though, I don't go hanging the arse of the car out everywhere I drive, so having strong traction is preferable, as is strong performance.

[RJUK]

jamoor said:

I’m really curious to know if there’s any truth in this?


Tesla claim their car will last half a million miles, you rarely hear of ICE cars lasting anywhere near as long so they should need replacement less frequently.
How does an ev contribute to more co2? There’s less components in the car, the tailpipe emissions are less aren’t they? Certainly in the U.K. a sizeable proportion of electrIcity is renewable and some energy providers claim their energy is 100% renewable

There isn't. The whole thing about EVs being less clean is nonsense.

I suspect though, that in the short term having loads of people buying new cars when they otherwise might not have is probably worse for the environment.

[CABC]

jamoor said:

Tesla claim their car will last half a million miles, you rarely hear of ICE cars lasting anywhere near as long so they should need replacement less frequently.
How does an ev contribute to more co2? There’s less components in the car, the tailpipe emissions are less aren’t they? Certainly in the U.K. a sizeable proportion of electrIcity is renewable and some energy providers claim their energy is 100% renewable

comparing Tesla claim to current ICE reality, mmm.
ICE cars get scrapped for reasons other than the ICE typically.
Most early EV adopters will not be running their cars for half a million miles because, as the poster you responded to said, they'll be swapping out for the latest model well before then.

Lifespans are unknown for now. However, as with ICE, it could be suspension, electrics and other control modules that see an ev scrapped way before half a million. Swapping out motors or batteries could be straightforward, but that's the equivalent of the engine - the most reliable part of a modern car.

i'm not denying the benefits of EV, but make the correct comparisons and not over justify your new consumer good.

[RJUK]

Leon R said:

This is not mean't to be an insult but if you don't enjoy the sound, changing gears or working on ICE cars and you don't have time to drive for pleasure then what is it that makes you a "petrolhead"?

Where did I say I don't enjoy the sound? In fact I said the exact opposite. I listed the lack of sound as the downside to EVs. The only hatred I have with the sound of cars is the numerous sh*tboxes around me with farty exhausts and the inconsiderate tossers that like to rev them up at antisocial hours. There's nothing enjoyable about the sound of a 4 cylinder Calibra with a rusty fart can on the back.

Same goes for working on them - I've not touched on that, but admittedly it's a shame they can't be easily modified for more power like ICE cars, but there's nothing stopping you doing suspension, weight reduction, brakes, etc.

For me though, the car is a work vehicle and leased, so I couldn't tear it apart even if it was ICE.

The shifting gears thing I never really got. I've had a few cars with decent gearboxes, but I wouldn't say I missed that part of the car. I just now don't have to worry about the flippin thing refusing to go into first when it's cold or when I'm rolling along slowly in traffic.

I have an interest in cars, enjoy car shows and if I had the money would love to do some racing, but when you have two young kids it's hard to disappear off for hours to drive around aimlessly. I just want to have fun on my normal journeys, rather than go out specially to drive around.

I dunno, maybe I'm not a petrol head by some people's definition.

[RJUK]

CABC said:

Most early EV adopters will not be running their cars for half a million miles because, as the poster you responded to said, they'll be swapping out for the latest model well before then.

That's irrelevant though, because the car won't be scrapped when they change it - it'll get sold on to the next owner, getting another ICE car off the road.

Seemingly the plan is for the batteries to be used in commercial energy storage or home energy storage after they come out of scrapped cars, but again I think we're going a bit off topic.

[CABC]

RJUK said:

- it'll get sold on to the next owner, getting another ICE car off the road.

sure.
all supply & demand. as with ICE, 'old' cars are less desirable and so depreciate much faster than industrial or farm machinery. as long as people behave like the consumers they do i think EV cars will also be scrapped much earlier than half a million. we need to fix that aspect too, by either making cars easily and efficiently recyclable or encouraging long term use.

As you say, ICE will be replaced on each handover. we still have other issues to address.

[RJUK]

CABC said:

sure.
all supply & demand. as with ICE, 'old' cars are less desirable and so depreciate much faster than industrial or farm machinery. as long as people behave like the consumers they do i think EV cars will also be scrapped much earlier than half a million. we need to fix that aspect too, by either making cars easily and efficiently recyclable or encouraging long term use.

As you say, ICE will be replaced on each handover. we still have other issues to address.

Agreed.

And as I said before, I don't think everyone going to EVs will save us from climate change anyway. Even if everyone suddenly woke up with EVs tomorrow and solar panels on their roofs to charge them cleanly, it still wouldn't be enough.

To save us from climate change is going to take huge shifts in attitude and changes to the way we live. Less travel, less meat, greener energy, and many other things beyond.

The likelihood of convincing the governments of all countries to facilitate these changes in time and to enough of a degree to make any meaningful difference is very slim though. In the US they can't even get people wearing masks to protect them from Covid without protests.

Edited by RJUK on Friday 17th July 13:18

[Scootersp]

I don't see a complete ban in the next few decades at least.

The guy with the new zero BIK EV is doing it partly for cost reasons and many thousands of people might do the same, but only ever buy cheap cars.

From my post earlier a 8-9 year small EV with none of the features he enjoys, acceleration/tech/space, is £6,000.

Also like furlough protecting us now, the supply chains, repair businesses etc are huge and harsh stop/ban would put lots of these in jeopardy. Just as with the ceasing of new ICE car production we'll get plenty of warning I think of any significant restrictions.

[RJUK]

I'm actually more worried about the trend to self driving cars. Depending on how successful their development is there might come a time when we're simply not allowed to drive our own cars on the road. Hopefully not in my lifetime though.

In such circumstances I guess you'd only be able to drive at a track for recreational purposes, and I guess that'll be the last bastion of the ICE car. As somebody else said, you'll probably have to mail order some petrol in. "Legacy fuel" a bit like the motor oils you can currently buy for older engines.

Sad indeed, but I doubt it'll happen whilst we're still here to complain about it.