BOTB - rigged?

[The Mad Monk]

Taylor James said:

The Mad Monk said:

StrawberryBurst said:

A whole load of stuff about BOTB

What's BOTB?

If you don't like it, don't have anything to do with it.

Have I missed anything?

If you read the comments around any of these comps, houses, cars or anything else you'll see that there's a hard core of killjoys and cynics who seem to feel it's their mission in life to undermine, snipe and otherwise criticise something which is utterly inconsequential in the scheme of things. These raffles aren't connected to problem gambling.

Couldn't agree more.

Fortunately, I am not like that.

[Chris32345]

And to us normal people what's botb?

[CS Garth]

Taylor James said:

If you read the comments around any of these comps, houses, cars or anything else you'll see that there's a hard core of killjoys and cynics who seem to feel it's their mission in life to undermine, snipe and otherwise criticise something which is utterly inconsequential in the scheme of things. These raffles aren't connected to problem gambling.

Go and blockade the big bookies if you want to white knight gambling or highlight the absolutely crazy odds of winning a National Lottery prize. They could pillory This Morning for all their '£2.50 text 123 to win this suitcase full of cash' or lobby Bet365 about their owner's salary, but no, let's get all frothy over £2 for an Allegro ticket. Sad, sad cases.

It’s not white knighting gambling though is it? It’s calling out that the vast majority of these things are a scam, pure and simple. I don’t for the record believe BOTB are however.

I appreciate people don’t like to to be told they have been mugged off - if they want to believe they actually have a chance of winning then let them live in hopeful ignorance.

[iacabu]

Chris32345 said:

And to us normal people what's botb?

Best of the Best dream car competition. First links in Google searching botb

[ToastMan76]

0ddball said:

I live near Keighley, and considering the amount of 'entrepenuers' around here who seem to win cars, it certainly stands out as unusual.

Not a million miles from me. Maybe they are all just regulars of deffo legitimate not a front for anything Motorhub

[ch37]

CS Garth said:

It’s calling out that the vast majority of these things are a scam, pure and simple.

I've no doubt that some sites are holding raffles/competitions and picking winners randomly. As a few have mentioned, the popular ones should be comfortably profitable so there is no need to scam punters.

However, after a month of testing the free entry routes (which, I understand, is required to run these comps lawfully), I've come to the conclusion that just one that I've tried is actually running a legitimate competition.

One processed my free entries for two weeks but appears to have blacklisted me, no free entries processed since, emails unanswered. Others claim to offer free entry but are impossible to enter due to infrequent checking of mailboxes, others flat out ignore all postal entries full stop and one has consistently only processed the low cost/high odds entries, apparently ignoring entries for £20 but low odds competitions.

I cancelled my lottery ticket and was happy to use those funds to enter some of these, it's nice to dream. My reasoning for the free entries was to figure out which ones may be legit. I figure if they are above board in that respect they are probably running a proper business. That I'm left with one single company (of 8 that I've tried at least 3-4 times) says a lot about the industry. That one company now gets a few quid a week from me.

The law needs updating as there is essentially zero accountability with these competitions and weaseling out by claiming to offer free entries is clearly very easy to game.

[Taylor James]

ch37 said:

I've no doubt that some sites are holding raffles/competitions and picking winners randomly. As a few have mentioned, the popular ones should be comfortably profitable so there is no need to scam punters.

However, after a month of testing the free entry routes (which, I understand, is required to run these comps lawfully), I've come to the conclusion that just one that I've tried is actually running a legitimate competition.

One processed my free entries for two weeks but appears to have blacklisted me, no free entries processed since, emails unanswered. Others claim to offer free entry but are impossible to enter due to infrequent checking of mailboxes, others flat out ignore all postal entries full stop and one has consistently only processed the low cost/high odds entries, apparently ignoring entries for £20 but low odds competitions.

I cancelled my lottery ticket and was happy to use those funds to enter some of these, it's nice to dream. My reasoning for the free entries was to figure out which ones may be legit. I figure if they are above board in that respect they are probably running a proper business. That I'm left with one single company (of 8 that I've tried at least 3-4 times) says a lot about the industry. That one company now gets a few quid a week from me.

The law needs updating as there is essentially zero accountability with these competitions and weaseling out by claiming to offer free entries is clearly very easy to game.

What do the terms and conditions say?
You will normally be permitted one free postal entry per competition but will have no right to an acknowledgement. It would hardly be reasonable for the promoter to have to incur costs to confirm your free entry.

Pay the small amount above the cost of your envelope and stamp and enter online and no doubt you will get an email acknowledgement. Or compromise by sending in your free entry and paying for one ticket. Think through what would happen if no-one paid to enter a competition.

Are you just mean and a bit of a tightwad?

[CS Garth]

Taylor James said:

Think through what would happen if no-one paid to enter a competition.

A load of chancers would stop scamming vulnerable/trusting/gullible people would appear to be one outcome

[kharma45]

Taylor James said:

What do the terms and conditions say?
You will normally be permitted one free postal entry per competition but will have no right to an acknowledgement. It would hardly be reasonable for the promoter to have to incur costs to confirm your free entry.

Pay the small amount above the cost of your envelope and stamp and enter online and no doubt you will get an email acknowledgement. Or compromise by sending in your free entry and paying for one ticket. Think through what would happen if no-one paid to enter a competition.

Are you just mean and a bit of a tightwad?

If they don’t want to comply with the law then don’t run a business governed by it.

DCG are exceptionally bad for not honouring postal entries. Absolute charlatans.

[ch37]

Taylor James said:

What do the terms and conditions say?
You will normally be permitted one free postal entry per competition but will have no right to an acknowledgement. It would hardly be reasonable for the promoter to have to incur costs to confirm your free entry.

Think through what would happen if no-one paid to enter a competition.

Are you just mean and a bit of a tightwad?

Entry lists are publicly available prior to the draw, typically, or at the very least you'd need a number allocated on your account. So it's easy to check if a free entry has been processed with very little additional admin burden for the company. As it happens the one that does consistently process them does indeed add them to your account (with ticket number) alongside your paid entries and email out, so it's doable.

If no one paid to enter it wouldn't be viable, of course, but those are the rules that these companies have to work to if they want to operate as they do, which os extremely light touch and relaxed compared to the alternatives. Clearly postal entries are a big enough barrier to entry that very few people do it, otherwise as you say these competitions wouldn't last 5 minutes.

As mentioned I have no issue spending money on these, that was the entire point of me scoping out who to enter with in future. If companies can't be arsed to make the one small concession to being able to run these competitions in the first place, what else are they fiddling?

The rules are pretty clear but, BotB and their spot the ball aside, you'd have a challenge finding one of these car prize sites that sits firmly in either of these categories...

Edited by ch37 on Sunday 19th July 00:43

[Taylor James]

CS Garth said:

Taylor James said:

Think through what would happen if no-one paid to enter a competition.

A load of chancers would stop scamming vulnerable/trusting/gullible people would appear to be one outcome

Well yes, because there would be no competitions. That sounds like fun.

[Taylor James]

ch37 said:

Entry lists are publicly available prior to the draw, typically, or at the very least you'd need a number allocated on your account. So it's easy to check if a free entry has been processed with very little additional admin burden for the company. As it happens the one that does consistently process them does indeed add them to your account (with ticket number) alongside your paid entries and email out, so it's doable.

Just to be clear, I completely agree that the rules should be followed but if the main concern is legitimacy I don't think we are looking in the right place.

A much bigger issue for me is if the draw is honest, so paying participants have a genuine chance of winning. In a rigged competition I have much more concern over someone losing money than I do over someone whose free entry isn't considered.

[ch37]

Taylor James said:

Just to be clear, I completely agree that the rules should be followed but if the main concern is legitimacy I don't think we are looking in the right place.

A much bigger issue for me is if the draw is honest, so paying participants have a genuine chance of winning. In a rigged competition I have much more concern over someone losing money than I do over someone whose free entry isn't considered.

True, but these competitions are only able to exist in their largely unregulated nature because of the loophole re: free entries so it's all linked really.

[gf15]

We all know that the odds of winning a car on BOTB are very low.

My F-Type was a prize on BOTB.

Now bearing in mind that lightning never strikes the same spot twice, amazingly the original owner's wife also won an expensive car with BOTB.

I suppose there will be some genuine winners, but I think the number is considerably lower than one may think.

[DonkeyApple]

Taylor James said:

Just to be clear, I completely agree that the rules should be followed but if the main concern is legitimacy I don't think we are looking in the right place.

A much bigger issue for me is if the draw is honest, so paying participants have a genuine chance of winning. In a rigged competition I have much more concern over someone losing money than I do over someone whose free entry isn't considered.

Agree. Earlier in the thread someone was bemoaning that £5 goods were being raffles for £10k but to run a raffle properly, to buy the goods, market the tickets, process the high cost of free entries and if selling a fixed number of tickets to absorb the full loss of each non sale, to pay the legal third party to make the draw, to deal with all the enquiries and clerical issues and to pay the fees in all the charge backs and then make a profit will easily soak up £5k. In fact a stand-alone will cost much, much more.

It takes quite a bit of backing to set up and run properly and then time to build a large enough client base to self market enough.

There are clearly legitimate businesses but it is also pretty easy to see which ones are just mug punters giving their money to crooks.

The free entry aspect can also be looked at from more than just the consumer direction. From the legitimate business direction it is a risk cost and a variable one and your enterprise relies on entrants for the most part understanding the premis of the two way offer and the civility of the commercial transaction and in keeping those who wish to exercise their legal right as a point of principle to a minimum. It’s a little bit like an honesty box in that it only all works because the vast majority understand the reason for the financial aspect and make the personal choice to do so despite not having to.

[ch37]

DonkeyApple said:

It’s a little bit like an honesty box in that it only all works because the vast majority understand the reason for the financial aspect and make the personal choice to do so despite not having to.

That's a two way street, surely? Simply binning postal entries (as a majority of these companies appear to do) or making them impossible to enter by post in the first place kinda strips away any notion of honesty or loyalty towards these businesses.

If they're not complying with the basic, fundamental rules that their business model relies upon to exist in the first place, what else are they up to?

[CS Garth]

Taylor James said:

CS Garth said:

Taylor James said:

Think through what would happen if no-one paid to enter a competition.

A load of chancers would stop scamming vulnerable/trusting/gullible people would appear to be one outcome

Well yes, because there would be no competitions. That sounds like fun.

There is no competition 90% of the time. Once you move through the anger/denial phase and into acceptance re this important point everything else falls into place.

Or another way:

-you don’t know me. Send me 5 quid and I promise I’ll put you in competition for whatever car you fancy. Would you?
-same scenario, but I’ve gone to the trouble of putting up basic website with some stock images of the items as I don’t currently own them? Would you?
-again, same scenario but I’ve stuck in a couple of photos of ‘past winners’ who are in reality my mates stood next to a car I rented for the weekend? Would you?

For me I only would at the point at which they are independently audited by a respected accountancy firm. Others seem happy to send their cash based on the above scenarios and then when told they are being ripped off just put their fingers in their ears.

[Narcisus]

I had a go last week. First time and was just a pixel off the inner ring.

Edit to say it was my first go ever.

[DonkeyApple]

ch37 said:

That's a two way street, surely? Simply binning postal entries (as a majority of these companies appear to do) or making them impossible to enter by post in the first place kinda strips away any notion of honesty or loyalty towards these businesses.

If they're not complying with the basic, fundamental rules that their business model relies upon to exist in the first place, what else are they up to?

Completely. It’s a legal requirement for a game of skill and it is something that you have to juggle with very intelligently as to how you present it. With a TV competition you can just bang up the small print in the legally required minimum font for the legally required minimum amount of time but on a website more judgement is required.

If it’s not there then it’s not legal. Also if it is too obscure it fails the test.

I would say that who you are targeting and the nature of the prize has a strong impact on free entries to your bottom line.

[Richard-390a0]

Anyone else seen the recent comments under the BOTB posts on Facebook?. Suspicions about the latest dream car winner who has won £400k from various different companies in the last month. Won over 10 different competitions apparently.