RE: Land Rover Defender 90 | UK Review
Discussion
Turn7 said:
I think the new Bronco will utterly trounce it in the US, and probably here if Ford brought it in.
Average Monthly Sales US Market Estimations
Defender
475
4Runner
9,600
Wrangler
17,000
Bronco
16,000
Land Rover Defender 110 has sold 1,900 units in the US since its introduction at the beginning of June. That's the four months of June through September. An average of 475 units sold per month.
Toyota 4Runner has sold from January through September a total of 86,827 units. An average of more than 9,600 units per month.
Jeep Wrangler, both two- and four-door, has sold from January through September a total of 150,202 units. An average of almost 17,000 units per month.
Ford Bronco will begin production in spring of 2021. Ford has confirmed that it is holding 190,000 buyer reservations for Bronco, including both two- and four-door variants as well as the unibody variant called Bronco Sport. Each reservation is secured with a refundable $100 deposit. If produced in a single model year: An average of almost 16,000 units per month.
Defender, Wrangler, and 4Runner data from CarSalesBase. Bronco information from Motor1.
unsprung said:
Turn7 said:
I think the new Bronco will utterly trounce it in the US, and probably here if Ford brought it in.
Average Monthly Sales US Market Estimations
Defender
475
4Runner
9,600
Wrangler
17,000
Bronco
16,000
Land Rover Defender 110 has sold 1,900 units in the US since its introduction at the beginning of June. That's the four months of June through September. An average of 475 units sold per month.
Toyota 4Runner has sold from January through September a total of 86,827 units. An average of more than 9,600 units per month.
Jeep Wrangler, both two- and four-door, has sold from January through September a total of 150,202 units. An average of almost 17,000 units per month.
Ford Bronco will begin production in spring of 2021. Ford has confirmed that it is holding 190,000 buyer reservations for Bronco, including both two- and four-door variants as well as the unibody variant called Bronco Sport. Each reservation is secured with a refundable $100 deposit. If produced in a single model year: An average of almost 16,000 units per month.
Defender, Wrangler, and 4Runner data from CarSalesBase. Bronco information from Motor1.
Plus, I think the new Bronco looks on point, not like yet another JLR mishmash....
Ive had 4 Defenders of various spec, and have a very soft spot for LR, but the latest stuff all leaves me cold. Too much model choice diluting the original core product.
CDP said:
rxe said:
Trendy set still have dogs though. What is the point in a Defender you can’t stick a f
king Labrador in?
This.king Labrador in? Moaning about lack of space in a 90? Take a look at the inside of a 2015 Defender 90 and appreciate how true to the old model the new cars actually are. Especially the rear load area behind the seats.
It's only LR finally admitting that humans have right elbows where the new model differs.
But buying the smallest version and complaining it's small is daft.
Cold said:
I do sometimes wonder when reading these threads about the new Defender if some of the contributors ever laid eyes on an old Defender.
Moaning about lack of space in a 90? Take a look at the inside of a 2015 Defender 90 and appreciate how true to the old model the new cars actually are. Especially the rear load area behind the seats.
It's only LR finally admitting that humans have right elbows where the new model differs.
But buying the smallest version and complaining it's small is daft.
Agreed. That's precisely why they make a bigger version. Moaning about lack of space in a 90? Take a look at the inside of a 2015 Defender 90 and appreciate how true to the old model the new cars actually are. Especially the rear load area behind the seats.
It's only LR finally admitting that humans have right elbows where the new model differs.
But buying the smallest version and complaining it's small is daft.
I don't get the price of these, they are Range Rover priced! I'm sure they will sell plenty but they seem crazy money! A brand new Jeep Wrangler is miles cheaper and has a 5 year warranty and is just as capable in the rough. Maybe that's not actually a competitor though and this is just a Range Rover in a retro defender frock. Shame its turned out to be a fashion accessory.
MonkeyMatt said:
I don't get the price of these, they are Range Rover priced! I'm sure they will sell plenty but they seem crazy money! A brand new Jeep Wrangler is miles cheaper and has a 5 year warranty and is just as capable in the rough. Maybe that's not actually a competitor though and this is just a Range Rover in a retro defender frock. Shame its turned out to be a fashion accessory.
They start at around £40 and you can spec them up to around £100. I suspect that when the new Range Rover comes out there won’t be one near £100k. Let’s say the typical Defender is £60k. No one will be wiring an actual £60k for one. It’s just about what it costs per month.
About 1.5m people in the UK earn more than £100k/annum. Then on top of that you have around half a million pensioners earning more than £50,000 and obviously they have ultra high disposable income ratios as they’ve paid off their mortgages. And on top of that 2m you have at least the same again and probably more households of combined income in excess of £100k.
In the UK alone there are millions of people who can afford vehicles like this. Extrapolate that across much larger markets for those individuals and households such as the US, EU, China etc and consider that JLR Male relatively small numbers of vehicles and they probably won’t have much of a problem shifting these.
They’ve appeared very rapidly around here to the point that a month ago you might see one or two but now they are pretty common sites on a typical journey. And these are 90s which don’t strike me as serving any purpose of you put rear seats in them.
unsprung said:
Average Monthly Sales
US Market Estimations
Defender
475
4Runner
9,600
Wrangler
17,000
Bronco
16,000
Land Rover Defender 110 has sold 1,900 units in the US since its introduction at the beginning of June. That's the four months of June through September. An average of 475 units sold per month.
Toyota 4Runner has sold from January through September a total of 86,827 units. An average of more than 9,600 units per month.
Jeep Wrangler, both two- and four-door, has sold from January through September a total of 150,202 units. An average of almost 17,000 units per month.
Ford Bronco will begin production in spring of 2021. Ford has confirmed that it is holding 190,000 buyer reservations for Bronco, including both two- and four-door variants as well as the unibody variant called Bronco Sport. Each reservation is secured with a refundable $100 deposit. If produced in a single model year: An average of almost 16,000 units per month.
Defender, Wrangler, and 4Runner data from CarSalesBase. Bronco information from Motor1.
Well done for getting all the sales figures. Unfortunately people think this new is the only way LR can make money in order to survive will simply ignore these facts. US Market Estimations
Defender
475
4Runner
9,600
Wrangler
17,000
Bronco
16,000
Land Rover Defender 110 has sold 1,900 units in the US since its introduction at the beginning of June. That's the four months of June through September. An average of 475 units sold per month.
Toyota 4Runner has sold from January through September a total of 86,827 units. An average of more than 9,600 units per month.
Jeep Wrangler, both two- and four-door, has sold from January through September a total of 150,202 units. An average of almost 17,000 units per month.
Ford Bronco will begin production in spring of 2021. Ford has confirmed that it is holding 190,000 buyer reservations for Bronco, including both two- and four-door variants as well as the unibody variant called Bronco Sport. Each reservation is secured with a refundable $100 deposit. If produced in a single model year: An average of almost 16,000 units per month.
Defender, Wrangler, and 4Runner data from CarSalesBase. Bronco information from Motor1.
I have no problem of LR building unibody, independent suspension, full of electronic assistance and an exterior design with fake design details. Because those types of SUVs have huge markets globally.
But LR and most people on this forum should also realise there’s still a huge market for an off roader with ladder chassis, solid axles, manually selectable diff locks and an exterior design features more functional design details. Yes, this market almost doesn’t exist in the UK or West Europe anymore. But the world is so much bigger than just the UK!
Sometimes I wish LR would move their design and development centre to either North America or Asia. By locating in the West Midlands and having mostly British or European designers and decision makers really restricting LR’s global view...
In their home market the Wrangler and Bronco are cheap cars. They make money because they sell (or will in Broncos case...) shedloads.
JLR can't compete in the mass market. Even if they were guaranteed 200,000 sales in the US they couldn't produce the car cheaply enough to make it work because they don't have cheap parts from the millions of other vehicles they sell.
It really is as simple as that.
JLR can't compete in the mass market. Even if they were guaranteed 200,000 sales in the US they couldn't produce the car cheaply enough to make it work because they don't have cheap parts from the millions of other vehicles they sell.
It really is as simple as that.
MonkeyMatt said:
I don't get the price of these, they are Range Rover priced! I'm sure they will sell plenty but they seem crazy money! A brand new Jeep Wrangler is miles cheaper and has a 5 year warranty and is just as capable in the rough. Maybe that's not actually a competitor though and this is just a Range Rover in a retro defender frock. Shame its turned out to be a fashion accessory.
Yes but nowhere near capable on the road. There are a chore on the road, noisy, steering is like piloting a boat and the interior like most American cars is really cheap. Though have to say the Americans are making huge strides on interior and tech recently on their higher end cars like the Navigator with augmented reality etc (Done think I could be seen in one though as on the vulgar side for the UK)
loveice said:
Well done for getting all the sales figures. Unfortunately people think this new is the only way LR can make money in order to survive will simply ignore these facts.
I have no problem of LR building unibody, independent suspension, full of electronic assistance and an exterior design with fake design details. Because those types of SUVs have huge markets globally.
But LR and most people on this forum should also realise there’s still a huge market for an off roader with ladder chassis, solid axles, manually selectable diff locks and an exterior design features more functional design details. Yes, this market almost doesn’t exist in the UK or West Europe anymore. But the world is so much bigger than just the UK!
Sometimes I wish LR would move their design and development centre to either North America or Asia. By locating in the West Midlands and having mostly British or European designers and decision makers really restricting LR’s global view...
How does a mid sized manufacturer build a vehicle in the UK, with high cost land and labour, then ship it to the US, then pay for the currency differential and then have to lend money to its customers at a much higher rate than a major manufacturer have to manage to compete against the incumbent local mass manufacturers? I have no problem of LR building unibody, independent suspension, full of electronic assistance and an exterior design with fake design details. Because those types of SUVs have huge markets globally.
But LR and most people on this forum should also realise there’s still a huge market for an off roader with ladder chassis, solid axles, manually selectable diff locks and an exterior design features more functional design details. Yes, this market almost doesn’t exist in the UK or West Europe anymore. But the world is so much bigger than just the UK!
Sometimes I wish LR would move their design and development centre to either North America or Asia. By locating in the West Midlands and having mostly British or European designers and decision makers really restricting LR’s global view...
The obvious answer is that you can’t. And what people are getting confused over on all these threads is that there are two basic business models. Mass volume and low margin or low volume and high margin and they lead to two completely different products aimed at two different economic segments.
When you get this in a market place the bigger the sales numbers of the high volume, low margin products then the better that is for the low volume, high margin business because there are more clients at the ‘minuscus’.
LR in the US wants to see Wrangler and Bronco sales as high as they can possibly be. And within reason you then want to see tribalism as that helps jump customers who are along the economic border into the smaller premium sector. Or, another way of phrasing it, the more ubiquitous a product is the greater the number of people who will use their financial might to segregate themselves from that ubiquity.
The bigger that Bronco number the better it is for JLR. Obviously in crude terms the lowest segment of the market should sell in the region of 20 times as many units when you consider that only 5% of the Western population can afford the premium product before you even begin to take into account for local factors which in terms of the US and these products are somewhat enormous.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Friday 30th October 09:01
Cold said:
I do sometimes wonder when reading these threads about the new Defender if some of the contributors ever laid eyes on an old Defender.
Moaning about lack of space in a 90? Take a look at the inside of a 2015 Defender 90 and appreciate how true to the old model the new cars actually are. Especially the rear load area behind the seats.
It's only LR finally admitting that humans have right elbows where the new model differs.
But buying the smallest version and complaining it's small is daft.
Yes I have, and I’ve been in a few as well.Moaning about lack of space in a 90? Take a look at the inside of a 2015 Defender 90 and appreciate how true to the old model the new cars actually are. Especially the rear load area behind the seats.
It's only LR finally admitting that humans have right elbows where the new model differs.
But buying the smallest version and complaining it's small is daft.
Someone with and old 90 can:
- Drive the car on their own and have a dog in the rear load area
- Drive the car with a passenger and have both the passengers and their dog in the load area
- Drive the car with three passengers, 2 on side facing seats, and several dogs in the back. I accept that this is a short distance option - say travelling between stands.
If you can’t put your dog in the back when driving one up, this car is useless to every person in the target market that I know. And no, I don’t mean farmers.
“Get a 110” is not a sensible answer - I don’t need to buy a 110 to transport a Labrador - a f
king Honda Jazz can do that.rxe said:
Yes I have, and I’ve been in a few as well.
Someone with and old 90 can:
- Drive the car on their own and have a dog in the rear load area
- Drive the car with a passenger and have both the passengers and their dog in the load area
- Drive the car with three passengers, 2 on side facing seats, and several dogs in the back. I accept that this is a short distance option - say travelling between stands.
If you can’t put your dog in the back when driving one up, this car is useless to every person in the target market that I know. And no, I don’t mean farmers.
“Get a 110” is not a sensible answer - I don’t need to buy a 110 to transport a Labrador - a fking Honda Jazz can do that.
Yup. I think that any thread that meantioms farmers etc needs to be skipped as it’s well beyond the surreal now and people can only be mentioning it in 2020 for a joke. Someone with and old 90 can:
- Drive the car on their own and have a dog in the rear load area
- Drive the car with a passenger and have both the passengers and their dog in the load area
- Drive the car with three passengers, 2 on side facing seats, and several dogs in the back. I accept that this is a short distance option - say travelling between stands.
If you can’t put your dog in the back when driving one up, this car is useless to every person in the target market that I know. And no, I don’t mean farmers.
“Get a 110” is not a sensible answer - I don’t need to buy a 110 to transport a Labrador - a f
king Honda Jazz can do that.This 90 is rendered pointless as a product if indeed those rear seats do not fold flat. It is a car that in essence has the rear seats inside the boot space so you already have to make the decision whether to carry two passengers or luggage/dogs etc but if those rear seats don’t fold flat then because they are in the boot space then you have a rather big problem that the 90 does not have a boot at all. A sloping floor renders the space unusable. It is afterall, why no one has ever fitted a slope to a car boot before.
It is so weird that to be honest I still do not believe that those boot seats don’t fold flat. No one wants a four seater car without a boot that four people can utilise and no one wants a two seater car that has an enormous, unusable void behind the two passengers.
Both rear rows fold flat in the 110.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Friday 30th October 10:09
rxe said:
Yes I have, and I’ve been in a few as well.
Someone with and old 90 can:
- Drive the car on their own and have a dog in the rear load area
- Drive the car with a passenger and have both the passengers and their dog in the load area
- Drive the car with three passengers, 2 on side facing seats, and several dogs in the back. I accept that this is a short distance option - say travelling between stands.
If you can’t put your dog in the back when driving one up, this car is useless to every person in the target market that I know. And no, I don’t mean farmers.
“Get a 110” is not a sensible answer - I don’t need to buy a 110 to transport a Labrador - a fking Honda Jazz can do that.
When were side facing seats last available? I have no idea but think it's circa 2000.Someone with and old 90 can:
- Drive the car on their own and have a dog in the rear load area
- Drive the car with a passenger and have both the passengers and their dog in the load area
- Drive the car with three passengers, 2 on side facing seats, and several dogs in the back. I accept that this is a short distance option - say travelling between stands.
If you can’t put your dog in the back when driving one up, this car is useless to every person in the target market that I know. And no, I don’t mean farmers.
“Get a 110” is not a sensible answer - I don’t need to buy a 110 to transport a Labrador - a f
king Honda Jazz can do that.DoubleD said:
Stevemtb said:
I really want to like this but can't see any reason to buy one aside from the fact i think it looks great..it's not even the pricing that's the biggest issue, it's the fact it's going to be useless for anyone with more than 2 family members, a dog, a mountain bike or even golf clubs!...regretfully i'm out!
So are you getting a 110 then?The 110 is the obvious alternative, however having seen them on the road, they don't look as good as the 90, and are just 20% larger than they need to be.
...... Is the UK going to get a RHD Ford Bronco? .... This is the most important question, other than whether the Grenadier thing is going to the Goldilocks "just right" best of all worlds
Everyone banging on about the Bronco, the two door Bronco boot doesn't much larger than the Defender 90
Based off those estimates Bronco vs Defender
width 1219mm vs 1183mm
depth 609mm vs 460mm so just 15cm difference
2 door Wrangler boot (3rd pic) is even smaller
LR claim on their site 297ltrs, a mk3 Focus Hatch is 316ltrs so its not the end of the world is it. Are people so desperate for the seats to fold flat?
If the boots not big enough for you, get the 110. Thats why I have a Leon estate rather than the hatch.....
Based off those estimates Bronco vs Defender
width 1219mm vs 1183mm
depth 609mm vs 460mm so just 15cm difference
2 door Wrangler boot (3rd pic) is even smaller
LR claim on their site 297ltrs, a mk3 Focus Hatch is 316ltrs so its not the end of the world is it. Are people so desperate for the seats to fold flat?
If the boots not big enough for you, get the 110. Thats why I have a Leon estate rather than the hatch.....
Edited by dukebox9reg on Friday 30th October 10:49
It does look very capable and epic fun off road though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSnGcBOO-ZI
I've never been off roading but how it gets through and up some of those trenches is seriously impressive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSnGcBOO-ZI
I've never been off roading but how it gets through and up some of those trenches is seriously impressive
DonkeyApple said:
MonkeyMatt said:
I don't get the price of these, they are Range Rover priced! I'm sure they will sell plenty but they seem crazy money! A brand new Jeep Wrangler is miles cheaper and has a 5 year warranty and is just as capable in the rough. Maybe that's not actually a competitor though and this is just a Range Rover in a retro defender frock. Shame its turned out to be a fashion accessory.
They start at around £40 and you can spec them up to around £100. I suspect that when the new Range Rover comes out there won’t be one near £100k. Let’s say the typical Defender is £60k. No one will be wiring an actual £60k for one. It’s just about what it costs per month.
About 1.5m people in the UK earn more than £100k/annum. Then on top of that you have around half a million pensioners earning more than £50,000 and obviously they have ultra high disposable income ratios as they’ve paid off their mortgages. And on top of that 2m you have at least the same again and probably more households of combined income in excess of £100k.
In the UK alone there are millions of people who can afford vehicles like this. Extrapolate that across much larger markets for those individuals and households such as the US, EU, China etc and consider that JLR Male relatively small numbers of vehicles and they probably won’t have much of a problem shifting these.
They’ve appeared very rapidly around here to the point that a month ago you might see one or two but now they are pretty common sites on a typical journey. And these are 90s which don’t strike me as serving any purpose of you put rear seats in them.
rxe said:
Yes I have, and I’ve been in a few as well.
Someone with and old 90 can:
- Drive the car on their own and have a dog in the rear load area
- Drive the car with a passenger and have both the passengers and their dog in the load area
- Drive the car with three passengers, 2 on side facing seats, and several dogs in the back. I accept that this is a short distance option - say travelling between stands.
If you can’t put your dog in the back when driving one up, this car is useless to every person in the target market that I know. And no, I don’t mean farmers.
“Get a 110” is not a sensible answer - I don’t need to buy a 110 to transport a Labrador - a fking Honda Jazz can do that.
Buy a Honda Jazz then FFS..Someone with and old 90 can:
- Drive the car on their own and have a dog in the rear load area
- Drive the car with a passenger and have both the passengers and their dog in the load area
- Drive the car with three passengers, 2 on side facing seats, and several dogs in the back. I accept that this is a short distance option - say travelling between stands.
If you can’t put your dog in the back when driving one up, this car is useless to every person in the target market that I know. And no, I don’t mean farmers.
“Get a 110” is not a sensible answer - I don’t need to buy a 110 to transport a Labrador - a f
king Honda Jazz can do that.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff