RE: Land Rover Defender 90 | UK Review
Discussion
Bill said:
When were side facing seats last available? I have no idea but think it's circa 2000.
From 2002 (iirc) onwards, any seat in a passenger car had to have a seat belt, and therefore pass the crash tests for occupant restraint. This rules out sideways facing seats. The old defender deathtrap was homologated way before this legislation was introduced, but any car sold since must of course meet this regulation.It's real easy to moan that this makes the new 90 not as capable as the old one, but by the same token, you'd be moaning (in pain) a lot more if you were unfortunately to be sat in an old defender in a crash.....
TBH, it's pretty amazing JLR even bothered to develop the new 90. Modern rules and regs really make it fairly limited, and the 110 is a more practical car in ever sense. Pretty much the only reason they did bother is to get the better off road capability and increased maneouverability that a shorter wheelbase provides, a capability very fe wpeople will ever actually use......
Bill said:
In their home market the Wrangler and Bronco are cheap cars. They make money because they sell (or will in Broncos case...) shedloads.
JLR can't compete in the mass market. Even if they were guaranteed 200,000 sales in the US they couldn't produce the car cheaply enough to make it work because they don't have cheap parts from the millions of other vehicles they sell.
It really is as simple as that.
JLR can't compete in the mass market. Even if they were guaranteed 200,000 sales in the US they couldn't produce the car cheaply enough to make it work because they don't have cheap parts from the millions of other vehicles they sell.
It really is as simple as that.
DonkeyApple said:
How does a mid sized manufacturer build a vehicle in the UK, with high cost land and labour, then ship it to the US, then pay for the currency differential and then have to lend money to its customers at a much higher rate than a major manufacturer have to manage to compete against the incumbent local mass manufacturers?
The obvious answer is that you can’t. And what people are getting confused over on all these threads is that there are two basic business models. Mass volume and low margin or low volume and high margin and they lead to two completely different products aimed at two different economic segments.
When you get this in a market place the bigger the sales numbers of the high volume, low margin products then the better that is for the low volume, high margin business because there are more clients at the ‘minuscus’.
LR in the US wants to see Wrangler and Bronco sales as high as they can possibly be. And within reason you then want to see tribalism as that helps jump customers who are along the economic border into the smaller premium sector. Or, another way of phrasing it, the more ubiquitous a product is the greater the number of people who will use their financial might to segregate themselves from that ubiquity.
The bigger that Bronco number the better it is for JLR. Obviously in crude terms the lowest segment of the market should sell in the region of 20 times as many units when you consider that only 5% of the Western population can afford the premium product before you even begin to take into account for local factors which in terms of the US and these products are somewhat enormous.
Well said - both of you. So few on Pistonheads seem to be able to grasp this concept. The obvious answer is that you can’t. And what people are getting confused over on all these threads is that there are two basic business models. Mass volume and low margin or low volume and high margin and they lead to two completely different products aimed at two different economic segments.
When you get this in a market place the bigger the sales numbers of the high volume, low margin products then the better that is for the low volume, high margin business because there are more clients at the ‘minuscus’.
LR in the US wants to see Wrangler and Bronco sales as high as they can possibly be. And within reason you then want to see tribalism as that helps jump customers who are along the economic border into the smaller premium sector. Or, another way of phrasing it, the more ubiquitous a product is the greater the number of people who will use their financial might to segregate themselves from that ubiquity.
The bigger that Bronco number the better it is for JLR. Obviously in crude terms the lowest segment of the market should sell in the region of 20 times as many units when you consider that only 5% of the Western population can afford the premium product before you even begin to take into account for local factors which in terms of the US and these products are somewhat enormous.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Friday 30th October 09:01
Ford and Jeep (& co) etc are 10x bigger then JLR...that gives them the ability to build cheap & build LOTs. JLR are unable to do this so MUST go premium; low quantities, higher margins. THIS IS WHY THE DEFENDER IS NOT A FARM TRUCK!!!
MonkeyMatt said:
here are several range rovers coming in at tbis price point, evoque, velar and sport. I didnt say people couldn't afford one, I actually tnink they will sell by the bucket load. My point is it just a range rover in a retro defender frock, it misses what the old defender is. No way wiukd but one of these as a workhorse. Its a shame there isn't a car in the land rover range
Conversely, you could argue that the old Defender what the market was decades ago. This new one will be a workhorse but a workhorse for 2020 at the price point it’s being sold at. The Grenadier is being pitched where the old Defender left off decades ago and it’s going to hit the market with a new Defender type of price but wanting pick-up, van and other lower price buyers to buy it and then use it for jobs more suited to a pick-up or van.
The world has changed. The old Defender didn’t and the new one has addressed the modern market perfectly at the prices a company structured the way JLR is structured to operate at.
mat205125 said:
DoubleD said:
Stevemtb said:
I really want to like this but can't see any reason to buy one aside from the fact i think it looks great..it's not even the pricing that's the biggest issue, it's the fact it's going to be useless for anyone with more than 2 family members, a dog, a mountain bike or even golf clubs!...regretfully i'm out!
So are you getting a 110 then?The 110 is the obvious alternative, however having seen them on the road, they don't look as good as the 90, and are just 20% larger than they need to be.
...... Is the UK going to get a RHD Ford Bronco? .... This is the most important question, other than whether the Grenadier thing is going to the Goldilocks "just right" best of all worlds
But if you don't own a dog (not everyone owns dogs), and there in our case only 3 of you - compromise in practicality really don't seem so big, not big enough to turn us away from one of these anyway. and the rear seats don't go all the way down - ah well, won't stop it filling up with crap when we take it to the dump.
if car purchases were all about the best, most practical tool for the job then we'd probably all drive Skoda estates. Performance cars are bought mostly on the basis of "that looks f**kng cool", so this will be as well.
Andeh1 said:
Well said - both of you. So few on Pistonheads seem to be able to grasp this concept.
Ford and Jeep (& co) etc are 10x bigger then JLR...that gives them the ability to build cheap & build LOTs. JLR are unable to do this so MUST go premium; low quantities, higher margins. THIS IS WHY THE DEFENDER IS NOT A FARM TRUCK!!!
No, the Defender is not a farm truck. But their target market is made up people who are rich and generally own land. Footballers will continue to buy wrapped Range Rovers. My best mate is a potential owner - owns loads of land in one of the shires, doesn’t farm (other than watch people farm for him), drives a Disco 5, tows big horse boxes full of polo ponies, would not be overly put off by the price. He could not buy this car as he can’t even drive to the shops with the dogs in the back.Ford and Jeep (& co) etc are 10x bigger then JLR...that gives them the ability to build cheap & build LOTs. JLR are unable to do this so MUST go premium; low quantities, higher margins. THIS IS WHY THE DEFENDER IS NOT A FARM TRUCK!!!
Then there are the people who aspire to be my mate, and have a house in the country and pay to be members of the local shoot. They can’t stick their (non-working line) Labradors in this car either.
Christ, even my Alfa estate (from that well known purveyor of ergonomic excellence) has a split fold down down rear seat that can accommodate 4 adults and 3 German Shepherds.
Who at JLR looked at that wonkey boot floor and said, yeah, that’s fine, no one will notice?
rxe said:
Andeh1 said:
Well said - both of you. So few on Pistonheads seem to be able to grasp this concept.
Ford and Jeep (& co) etc are 10x bigger then JLR...that gives them the ability to build cheap & build LOTs. JLR are unable to do this so MUST go premium; low quantities, higher margins. THIS IS WHY THE DEFENDER IS NOT A FARM TRUCK!!!
No, the Defender is not a farm truck. But their target market is made up people who are rich and generally own land. Footballers will continue to buy wrapped Range Rovers. My best mate is a potential owner - owns loads of land in one of the shires, doesn’t farm (other than watch people farm for him), drives a Disco 5, tows big horse boxes full of polo ponies, would not be overly put off by the price. He could not buy this car as he can’t even drive to the shops with the dogs in the back.Ford and Jeep (& co) etc are 10x bigger then JLR...that gives them the ability to build cheap & build LOTs. JLR are unable to do this so MUST go premium; low quantities, higher margins. THIS IS WHY THE DEFENDER IS NOT A FARM TRUCK!!!
Then there are the people who aspire to be my mate, and have a house in the country and pay to be members of the local shoot. They can’t stick their (non-working line) Labradors in this car either.
Christ, even my Alfa estate (from that well known purveyor of ergonomic excellence) has a split fold down down rear seat that can accommodate 4 adults and 3 German Shepherds.
Who at JLR looked at that wonkey boot floor and said, yeah, that’s fine, no one will notice?
dukebox9reg said:
Well if that bloody rich then and wants to carry dogs you buy the 110. Im sure he likes a lot of sports cars and doesn't buy them as the labs wont fit. Christ on a bike, some stupid arguments here. Car to small for needs, I dont like it needs to carry dogs, they make it longer, no dont like it needs to be smaller........
Sigh. The whole point of the 90 is that it is a reasonable size that you have a chance of parking it. 110s are huge. It’s the absurdity of a car the size of a 90 that can’t carry anything in the boot. When did you last see a car with a sloping boot? I don’t think I’ve ever seen one.rxe said:
dukebox9reg said:
Well if that bloody rich then and wants to carry dogs you buy the 110. Im sure he likes a lot of sports cars and doesn't buy them as the labs wont fit. Christ on a bike, some stupid arguments here. Car to small for needs, I dont like it needs to carry dogs, they make it longer, no dont like it needs to be smaller........
Sigh. The whole point of the 90 is that it is a reasonable size that you have a chance of parking it. 110s are huge. It’s the absurdity of a car the size of a 90 that can’t carry anything in the boot. When did you last see a car with a sloping boot? I don’t think I’ve ever seen one.
Bill said:
When were side facing seats last available? I have no idea but think it's circa 2000.
From memory, they were available up to and including 2006MY. 2007MY was when the Storm TD5 was dropped for the Ford Puma unit, necessitating rehomologation. I was working in JLR powertrain at the time and I can vaguely remember a ridiculous amount of hassle experienced by my colleagues in body engineering in finding a rear seating solution for 2007MY Defender that would actually pass crash testing.
https://youtu.be/9K_0w2XTstQ
21 days now. New coils, new injectors, and taken to LR USA tech centre and they still can't fix it.
It would be madness to buy one of these SH out of warranty.
21 days now. New coils, new injectors, and taken to LR USA tech centre and they still can't fix it.
It would be madness to buy one of these SH out of warranty.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
https://youtu.be/9K_0w2XTstQ
21 days now. New coils, new injectors, and taken to LR USA tech centre and they still can't fix it.
It would be madness to buy one of these SH out of warranty.
Buying SH out of warranty is a long way away.21 days now. New coils, new injectors, and taken to LR USA tech centre and they still can't fix it.
It would be madness to buy one of these SH out of warranty.
From this case it would be madness to buy one new.
abzmike said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
https://youtu.be/9K_0w2XTstQ
21 days now. New coils, new injectors, and taken to LR USA tech centre and they still can't fix it.
It would be madness to buy one of these SH out of warranty.
Buying SH out of warranty is a long way away.21 days now. New coils, new injectors, and taken to LR USA tech centre and they still can't fix it.
It would be madness to buy one of these SH out of warranty.
From this case it would be madness to buy one new.
The other problem is it's storing up further reputational damage for LR.
Throwing circa 2 to 3k in parts alone in the hope of fixing is not tolerable when you're paying for said parts yourself.
And current SH buyers are often future new buyers.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
abzmike said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
https://youtu.be/9K_0w2XTstQ
21 days now. New coils, new injectors, and taken to LR USA tech centre and they still can't fix it.
It would be madness to buy one of these SH out of warranty.
Buying SH out of warranty is a long way away.21 days now. New coils, new injectors, and taken to LR USA tech centre and they still can't fix it.
It would be madness to buy one of these SH out of warranty.
From this case it would be madness to buy one new.
The other problem is it's storing up further reputational damage for LR.
Throwing circa 2 to 3k in parts alone in the hope of fixing is not tolerable when you're paying for said parts yourself.
And current SH buyers are often future new buyers.
Can you imagine the treatment you'd get if you were a normal customer??
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