RE: The best electric cars to buy in 2021
Discussion
andy43 said:
And I'd still get a 24kw Leaf over a 30kw Leaf as the smaller battery is supposedly more reliable.
Not sure where you got that from.I ran a 30kw Leaf for 80k miles over 3 years with no noticeable reduction in range.
Whole car was 100% reliable with only 1 set of tyres, servicing and a software upgrade (done through warranty) needed during it's ownership.
Still on its original brake pads.
Max_Torque said:
er, i think you forgot the rather important c) you don't drive many miles a day
The average UK daily driving mileage is 11 miles per day. At 4 miles / kWh, you need about 3 kWh per day. That is very do-able indeed for a typical UK solar install.
11 miles/day is 4015 miles per year. I thought the average was baout 12000 miles per year?The average UK daily driving mileage is 11 miles per day. At 4 miles / kWh, you need about 3 kWh per day. That is very do-able indeed for a typical UK solar install.
Uncle Meat said:
Max_Torque said:
er, i think you forgot the rather important c) you don't drive many miles a day
The average UK daily driving mileage is 11 miles per day. At 4 miles / kWh, you need about 3 kWh per day. That is very do-able indeed for a typical UK solar install.
11 miles/day is 4015 miles per year. I thought the average was baout 12000 miles per year?The average UK daily driving mileage is 11 miles per day. At 4 miles / kWh, you need about 3 kWh per day. That is very do-able indeed for a typical UK solar install.
If you want low cost buy a second hand EV!
My i3, i bought as an AUC ex dealer demo, at 9 months old with 367 miles on the clock, and it cost me £16,200
Fast fowards 4 and a half years at it looks today to be worth about £15,000! And it's cost me peanuts to run and fuel. I've litterally never owned a car that has cost so little to run, depreciated so little, and been brilliant fun to drive :-)
yes, i got "lucky" (nothing lucky about it) and bought when no many people wanted such a car, so i got it cheap, but hey, if you do your homework you can bag a bargain......
My i3, i bought as an AUC ex dealer demo, at 9 months old with 367 miles on the clock, and it cost me £16,200
Fast fowards 4 and a half years at it looks today to be worth about £15,000! And it's cost me peanuts to run and fuel. I've litterally never owned a car that has cost so little to run, depreciated so little, and been brilliant fun to drive :-)
yes, i got "lucky" (nothing lucky about it) and bought when no many people wanted such a car, so i got it cheap, but hey, if you do your homework you can bag a bargain......
JD said:
DonkeyApple said:
But that's just taking a line out of context to subsequently make the same point 
It'll be a few years yet. 40m cars in Britain and we buy 2m new ones each year. Very few of those are pure EV. To date about 100,000.
Yes but I was just suggesting your numbers are way out, so things are going to happen much more quickly.It'll be a few years yet. 40m cars in Britain and we buy 2m new ones each year. Very few of those are pure EV. To date about 100,000.
There are under 32m licensed cars in the UK, not 40m, so already there is 8m that don't need replacing.
A good chunk of these will be cars that won't get churned (classics, sports cars etc.)
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/motoring-is...
Classic cars? There are 1m of which only half are on the road.
https://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/general-c...
New cars per year, call it 2.5m instead of 2, although the trend is closer to 2.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/299240/volume-...
My numbers are correct. You're looking at 2 to 3 decades to replace ICE with pure EV.
Wiltshire Lad said:
Some well made points but I do think the switch over to EV will accelerate quicker than you think. A company car driver with a 2.0 litre diesel and free fuel currently gets hit with a £7 - £9K tax bill dependent upon income. An EV will reduce to this to practically zero (Caveat - Rishi could change this next budget!). Many big companies will be moving across to EVs this year as a result (this is not speculation - I'm waiting to find out which model I'm going to get!)
It won't. It's just basic maths. How many years until at least half of new cars are pure EV, let alone 100%? We could be generous and say 5 years. And maybe 10 years until all new cars are pure EVs. Then we are only replacing cars at a rate of 2m a year and have 40m to replace. So at best, 2 to 3 decades. The only way you could change that is if you massively increased the number of new car sales, which as that is mainly driven by increasing wealth doesn't seem likely to increase at all.
Max_Torque said:
DonkeyApple said:
But it's not a change that can happen quickly and nor is it all that relevant in the UK in terms of pollution.
I'm not a betting man, but i suspect this change is going to happen far quicker than many are suggestingSaying it's "not relevant" to UK pollution is, at best, rather inappropriate. Yes, passenger cars in the UK are not the biggest single source of pollution or climate impact, but they are significant, and just because something is not the individual largest pollutor does not in any way negate the advantages brought by removing that source!
And not saying the change isn't beneficial just simply highlighting why people who believe it will happen quickly are incorrect and those who believe it is essential are also incorrect.
DonkeyApple said:
40m
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/motoring-is...
Classic cars? There are 1m of which only half are on the road.
https://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/general-c...
New cars per year, call it 2.5m instead of 2, although the trend is closer to 2.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/299240/volume-...
My numbers are correct. You're looking at 2 to 3 decades to replace ICE with pure EV.
Your figures are for all vehicles, which includes LGV, HGV, Buses and Motorcycles which I wouldn't consider cars to be replaced by EV.https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/motoring-is...
Classic cars? There are 1m of which only half are on the road.
https://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/general-c...
New cars per year, call it 2.5m instead of 2, although the trend is closer to 2.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/299240/volume-...
My numbers are correct. You're looking at 2 to 3 decades to replace ICE with pure EV.
See below, table 5 on page 9 for the correct data:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Mot emissions tests are going to be thinning the herd of older diesels at a staggering rate.
ddom said:
SWoll said:
You've got a very narrow interpretation of what constitutes fun. If it's solely freedom then not being tied to having to regularly visit a petrol station forecourt and pay £1.20 a litre is a lot of 'fun' IME.
Having lived with one for 2 years now the compromises really aren't anywhere near as bad as people seem to think. As an example on a trip down to Devon in September we stopped at exactly the same services on the M5 as we always do (Gordano) and were there for approx 15 additional minutes to charge the car for our needs. Hardy the end of the world.
FYI the Model 3 P is only 5% heavier than the BMW M440i X-Drive despite all those batteries, and lighter than the similarly practical 540i X-Drive. The heavier EV's are almost always the models having to cart around a platform that is shared with ICE variants.
If 'everyone' adopted them, the infrastructure would fall apart. Your 15 min wait would be somewhat more stressful then a trip to the pumps? Having lived with one for 2 years now the compromises really aren't anywhere near as bad as people seem to think. As an example on a trip down to Devon in September we stopped at exactly the same services on the M5 as we always do (Gordano) and were there for approx 15 additional minutes to charge the car for our needs. Hardy the end of the world.
FYI the Model 3 P is only 5% heavier than the BMW M440i X-Drive despite all those batteries, and lighter than the similarly practical 540i X-Drive. The heavier EV's are almost always the models having to cart around a platform that is shared with ICE variants.
Love it all!
This article has highlighted a modern day, electrical hole in the used car advert specification section, and so naturally follows the buying used cars filters, which I personally think should be brought up to speed now we are in 2021
Please add these for perusal and filtering if possible:
EV Battery Size (kWh),
EV Only Range (I'm gonna say in km because it's SI - but realise that might spark some heavy debate),
EV Power (here we go again, in kW probably most sensible, but guessing bhp will be more popular - whatever it really equates to :P).
This article has highlighted a modern day, electrical hole in the used car advert specification section, and so naturally follows the buying used cars filters, which I personally think should be brought up to speed now we are in 2021
Please add these for perusal and filtering if possible:
EV Battery Size (kWh),
EV Only Range (I'm gonna say in km because it's SI - but realise that might spark some heavy debate),
EV Power (here we go again, in kW probably most sensible, but guessing bhp will be more popular - whatever it really equates to :P).
DoubleD said:
so called said:
I took that step a couple of years ago.
Still love my Tuscan but until lock down was doing a 100 mile daily commute in my i3 followed by an i3S.
Great fun and saves about 400 a month (against previous petrol costs) when commuting.
Are you still saving when you take into account cost to change? Higher depreciation for a higher value car? Installing a charge point? Still love my Tuscan but until lock down was doing a 100 mile daily commute in my i3 followed by an i3S.
Great fun and saves about 400 a month (against previous petrol costs) when commuting.
If I was commuting before the EV, I would be spending approx 5 days x £24/day on petrol = £120/week. So 20 day month = £480/month.
The EV uses approx 22kW (summer) @5p = £1.10/day and approx 33kW (winter) @5p = £1.65/day so averaged @ £1.35/day x 20 days = £27/month.
The depreciation factor is a little mute as my previous commute was either a TVR Tuscan, Cerbera or Disco 5.
The i3S was a demo which I got a very good deal on at £28k 15 months ago. Worth about £24k now.
I lost about £12k on the Disco in 12 months.
£0 Road Tax compared to £475 for the Disco.
Charge point £250.
If I ignore the depreciation and road tax I see it as follows;
£501/month finance less fuel cost savings (£480 - £27 = £453) = £48 additional monthly expenditure.
And in the end I have an i3S instead of handing over all the cash to a petrol station.
SWoll said:
ddom said:
SWoll said:
You've got a very narrow interpretation of what constitutes fun. If it's solely freedom then not being tied to having to regularly visit a petrol station forecourt and pay £1.20 a litre is a lot of 'fun' IME.
Having lived with one for 2 years now the compromises really aren't anywhere near as bad as people seem to think. As an example on a trip down to Devon in September we stopped at exactly the same services on the M5 as we always do (Gordano) and were there for approx 15 additional minutes to charge the car for our needs. Hardy the end of the world.
FYI the Model 3 P is only 5% heavier than the BMW M440i X-Drive despite all those batteries, and lighter than the similarly practical 540i X-Drive. The heavier EV's are almost always the models having to cart around a platform that is shared with ICE variants.
If 'everyone' adopted them, the infrastructure would fall apart. Your 15 min wait would be somewhat more stressful then a trip to the pumps? Having lived with one for 2 years now the compromises really aren't anywhere near as bad as people seem to think. As an example on a trip down to Devon in September we stopped at exactly the same services on the M5 as we always do (Gordano) and were there for approx 15 additional minutes to charge the car for our needs. Hardy the end of the world.
FYI the Model 3 P is only 5% heavier than the BMW M440i X-Drive despite all those batteries, and lighter than the similarly practical 540i X-Drive. The heavier EV's are almost always the models having to cart around a platform that is shared with ICE variants.
Wiltshire Lad said:
If I take my Dad as a typical EV driver. 6000 mostly local miles a year - charges at home overnight. Infrastructure is pretty irrelevant to him. He has NEVER had to use a charge point other than home or a hotel in 3 years of ownership (BMW i3). Assuming everyone does huge motorway mileage is just not true. Clearly a problem if you do not have a driveway - otherwise any 15 min stops are likely to be a couple of times a year on holidays etc. Not so inconvenient...if I drive my TVR to the lakes I'll probably be at the pumps for longer!
If you be even more simplistic and say even a low range small EV has enough capacity for 150 miles.That means, even if you only use the car once a week, thats enough for 7500 miles per year never visiting a public charger.
The average UK mileage is about 7000 miles.
It's not just your dad, it is basically everyone. (excluding the powerfully built company directors or road warriors)
I've been working from home since March and I have to say an EV really appeals to me. we're going to run an ICE car for the next few years anyway, so an EV as a second car would be ideal. Quite fancy a Renault Zoe. It looks like a normal car and seems quite under-rated to me. The latest one does a genuine 200+ miles on a charge so give it a year or two and it will fall into budget.
JD said:
Wiltshire Lad said:
If I take my Dad as a typical EV driver. 6000 mostly local miles a year - charges at home overnight. Infrastructure is pretty irrelevant to him. He has NEVER had to use a charge point other than home or a hotel in 3 years of ownership (BMW i3). Assuming everyone does huge motorway mileage is just not true. Clearly a problem if you do not have a driveway - otherwise any 15 min stops are likely to be a couple of times a year on holidays etc. Not so inconvenient...if I drive my TVR to the lakes I'll probably be at the pumps for longer!
If you be even more simplistic and say even a low range small EV has enough capacity for 150 miles.That means, even if you only use the car once a week, thats enough for 7500 miles per year never visiting a public charger.
The average UK mileage is about 7000 miles.
It's not just your dad, it is basically everyone. (excluding the powerfully built company directors or road warriors)
Companies that put EVs on their fleets will have to install chargers for their staff to enable all staff to take advantage.
Building a remote charging network is not the burden of the tax payer.
The reality is that when EVs genuinely become cheaper to buy and run than their ICE equivalent we will see tens of millions of consumers make the change without flinching because the vast majority of car users can already live quite easily with the current situation.
so called said:
DoubleD said:
so called said:
I took that step a couple of years ago.
Still love my Tuscan but until lock down was doing a 100 mile daily commute in my i3 followed by an i3S.
Great fun and saves about 400 a month (against previous petrol costs) when commuting.
Are you still saving when you take into account cost to change? Higher depreciation for a higher value car? Installing a charge point? Still love my Tuscan but until lock down was doing a 100 mile daily commute in my i3 followed by an i3S.
Great fun and saves about 400 a month (against previous petrol costs) when commuting.
If I was commuting before the EV, I would be spending approx 5 days x £24/day on petrol = £120/week. So 20 day month = £480/month.
The EV uses approx 22kW (summer) @5p = £1.10/day and approx 33kW (winter) @5p = £1.65/day so averaged @ £1.35/day x 20 days = £27/month.
The depreciation factor is a little mute as my previous commute was either a TVR Tuscan, Cerbera or Disco 5.
The i3S was a demo which I got a very good deal on at £28k 15 months ago. Worth about £24k now.
I lost about £12k on the Disco in 12 months.
£0 Road Tax compared to £475 for the Disco.
Charge point £250.
If I ignore the depreciation and road tax I see it as follows;
£501/month finance less fuel cost savings (£480 - £27 = £453) = £48 additional monthly expenditure.
And in the end I have an i3S instead of handing over all the cash to a petrol station.
The I3 is a good car especially the rex, it's just a shame that BMW can't make a good looking car.
I imagine they must be expensive to fix in a crash with that funky chassis.
DoubleD said:
so called said:
DoubleD said:
so called said:
I took that step a couple of years ago.
Still love my Tuscan but until lock down was doing a 100 mile daily commute in my i3 followed by an i3S.
Great fun and saves about 400 a month (against previous petrol costs) when commuting.
Are you still saving when you take into account cost to change? Higher depreciation for a higher value car? Installing a charge point? Still love my Tuscan but until lock down was doing a 100 mile daily commute in my i3 followed by an i3S.
Great fun and saves about 400 a month (against previous petrol costs) when commuting.
If I was commuting before the EV, I would be spending approx 5 days x £24/day on petrol = £120/week. So 20 day month = £480/month.
The EV uses approx 22kW (summer) @5p = £1.10/day and approx 33kW (winter) @5p = £1.65/day so averaged @ £1.35/day x 20 days = £27/month.
The depreciation factor is a little mute as my previous commute was either a TVR Tuscan, Cerbera or Disco 5.
The i3S was a demo which I got a very good deal on at £28k 15 months ago. Worth about £24k now.
I lost about £12k on the Disco in 12 months.
£0 Road Tax compared to £475 for the Disco.
Charge point £250.
If I ignore the depreciation and road tax I see it as follows;
£501/month finance less fuel cost savings (£480 - £27 = £453) = £48 additional monthly expenditure.
And in the end I have an i3S instead of handing over all the cash to a petrol station.
The I3 is a good car especially the rex, it's just a shame that BMW can't make a good looking car.
I imagine they must be expensive to fix in a crash with that funky chassis.
I developed it years ago and called it the ‘F’ Plan.
Basically do the sums, see how far out you are and then say, “F
k it, I want it anyway.”After 12 months your OK.
After 24 months it’s a financial pain.
Trade in for newer car and start again.
I win.
I had a 2016 rex and moved up to an i3S with twice the battery.
size.
Interestingly I found the S ride far better. The previously mentioned ride issue I believe is connected with the rex engine.
I noticed a double shock characteristics of the rear end of the rex when passing over those short speed bumps.
On occasion you could feel that characteristic during normal driving.
While I still liked the rex, the S is far more balanced, planted and predicable.
Edited by so called on Tuesday 12th January 09:06
Let's not lose sight of the Chinese grip over the manufacture of the batteries, they own a large part of the raw materials. We may well make batteries in the UK but an amount of the base materials will be bought from companies under Chinese control.
I hope that ultimately the battery will be dumped in favour of the hydrogen fuel cell. The experience of building electric transmissions will not be wasted and should continue.
I will not be buying a battery car and sticking to diesel, just had 5 yrs with a Maserati Ghibli with a beautiful 6 cyl one which easily topped 40 mpg. I also believe the ic engine could be further cleaned up.
Remember battery cars still consume energy none of which is entirely carbon free. Much more to say on battery disposal etc, but another time!
Ian Morris CEng FIMechE
I hope that ultimately the battery will be dumped in favour of the hydrogen fuel cell. The experience of building electric transmissions will not be wasted and should continue.
I will not be buying a battery car and sticking to diesel, just had 5 yrs with a Maserati Ghibli with a beautiful 6 cyl one which easily topped 40 mpg. I also believe the ic engine could be further cleaned up.
Remember battery cars still consume energy none of which is entirely carbon free. Much more to say on battery disposal etc, but another time!
Ian Morris CEng FIMechE
ifmorris said:
Let's not lose sight of the Chinese grip over the manufacture of the batteries, they own a large part of the raw materials. We may well make batteries in the UK but an amount of the base materials will be bought from companies under Chinese control.
Others have already forseen that.https://www.thestar.com.my/business/business-news/...
I'm sure other entrepreneurs will follow their lead.
I dislike change. I dislike politicians telling me what to do. I dislike being 'nudged' to do things. I love motoring, I love cars. For me the 'Golden Age' of motoring was probably the period from 1960 through to 1990. I managed to catch and enjoy the last seven years....I have enjoyed motoring less and less ever since. I have recently been diagnosed with glaucoma. My driving days are over, but in some ways I am glad. I'm spared the monthly financial burden of these electric behemoths. I can't see their ugly forms very well and that's a bonus.
Enjoy your petrol cars while you can. You'll miss them when they're gone.....
Enjoy your petrol cars while you can. You'll miss them when they're gone.....
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