RE: The best electric cars to buy in 2021
Discussion
They work for some people, but not for others. Like okay, coupe vs estate.
As a means of travel, i.e comparing to the 80% of cars that are 'normal'I think they are far better.
One foot driving, instant power, smooth, quiet, quicker to warm cabin, no warming up before using full power, easier maintenance,
As a means of travel, i.e comparing to the 80% of cars that are 'normal'I think they are far better.
One foot driving, instant power, smooth, quiet, quicker to warm cabin, no warming up before using full power, easier maintenance,
85Carrera said:
Given a choice and no tax breaks, only a few misguided tree huggers would choose electric over ICE (misguided because, as is mentioned above, electric cars are nowhere as green as some people believe).
Misguided or Biased like you?EVs are indeed not a zero carbon, zero pollution option. It would be better to not buy a new car.
But if you are going to buy a new car, then over the life of that car (note: not necessary just the life under the first owner, but do you scrap your 3 yo cars when you've finished with them?) it's signifciantly (around 2.6 times in the UK with the grid mix as per 2018) better in terms of carbon released and obviously several thousand times better in terms of local air Pollution (NOx, THc, PM etc).
And of course, three other important factors mean that buying an EV as soon as possible is a good thing (instead of an ICE)
1) The rare earth materials mined (mostly by children obvs......) that go into the battery in an EV are not consumed during the use of that vehicle. The 60kg or so of lithium in a Tesla battery are still there, when it gets scrapped. That means recycling is not just possible, but cost effective (and that's ignoring the fact that aged BEV batteries can also go on to second life non transport applications and so further extend their useful life). You ICE car uses the fuel you put into it. This means that demand and extraction (and refining) of those materials is not just constant, but has to occur continuously and nothing can be (easily) recycled. That alone renders the extraction of raw materials for EVs as multiple times less impactful that the necessary extraction for ICE's.
2) As you EV ages, the range falls, but it does NOT get any less efficient. An EV with 150,000 miles on the clock, even one that hasn't been serviced in any way will return pretty much exactly the same energy useage as a new one. For an ICE, every time you drive it, a huge number of moving parts wear out. This increases friction, and critically, in a modern ultra high tollerance powertrain that absolutely depends on those tollerances to perform at its peak, significantly reduces its overall efficiency. An ICE also has several single point failures, any of which render it's emissions catastrophic, and in fact, have to be specifically monitored by the On Board Diagnostics, and should they exceed a limit, your car becomes ILLEGAL to drive! I suspect the no1 cause of MOT failures of old cars is MOT emissions test failure (which it should be noted is several thousand times lower a std than the actual limits under which the car was homologated, ie is really, really easy to pass, even when you car is basically knackered.
3) As the Grid greens the car you have just bought gets "cleaner" without you doing anything or spending any money! This is huge. You buy a car new this year, and in 5 years time it will be LESS polluting than it is today, for exactly zero cost or effort on your part. It's hard to explain just how important that is. And of course, you could, if you were not driven by purely financial goals, install your own solar system and pretty much drive your EV for what is effectively zero g/km over the life of the car. You can't (practically) do that with an ICE
So you claim people are "misguided" and yet you claims simply do not match reality.
samoht said:
DonkeyApple said:
One of the most annoying things that is being pushed into the car market via EVs is corporate control over the consumer. The EV could be a vastly more simple vehicle than the ICE but other the technology is being forced into the products that trap the consumer to the manufacturer far more than the farce of servicing and warranties ever did.
There will come a point when you won't be able to buy a used EV and not have to sign up to monthly subscriptions to the original manufacturer to get bits of it to work. It's heading towards one big IT style protection racket. It'll make things like an old 'classic' EV quite appealing, especially if you can get the battery packs upgraded fairly easily in due course.
I share your irritation at the car industry's push to 'monetise' every aspect of our cars and turn the car buyer into an 'ongoing revenue stream' in this way.There will come a point when you won't be able to buy a used EV and not have to sign up to monthly subscriptions to the original manufacturer to get bits of it to work. It's heading towards one big IT style protection racket. It'll make things like an old 'classic' EV quite appealing, especially if you can get the battery packs upgraded fairly easily in due course.
However, I don't agree that the subscription model is anything to do with EVs. Manufacturers have shown themselves perfectly well able to monetise features of ICE cars on a subscription basis.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/107492/bmw-rows-...
"In July 2019, BMW became the first carmaker to make Apple CarPlay a subscription service, with buyers having to pay a fee of £85 for a full year, £255 for three years or £295 for unlimited access." (Fortunately they rowed back on this).
The softwareisation of cars is happening at the same time as the introduction of EVs, but is no way dependent on it. So I don't think it's relevant to this thread (but probably deserves a thread of its own).
Max_Torque said:
Misguided or Biased like you?
EVs are indeed not a zero carbon, zero pollution option. It would be better to not buy a new car.
But if you are going to buy a new car, then over the life of that car (note: not necessary just the life under the first owner, but do you scrap your 3 yo cars when you've finished with them?) it's signifciantly (around 2.6 times in the UK with the grid mix as per 2018) better in terms of carbon released and obviously several thousand times better in terms of local air Pollution (NOx, THc, PM etc).
And of course, three other important factors mean that buying an EV as soon as possible is a good thing (instead of an ICE)
1) The rare earth materials mined (mostly by children obvs......) that go into the battery in an EV are not consumed during the use of that vehicle. The 60kg or so of lithium in a Tesla battery are still there, when it gets scrapped. That means recycling is not just possible, but cost effective (and that's ignoring the fact that aged BEV batteries can also go on to second life non transport applications and so further extend their useful life). You ICE car uses the fuel you put into it. This means that demand and extraction (and refining) of those materials is not just constant, but has to occur continuously and nothing can be (easily) recycled. That alone renders the extraction of raw materials for EVs as multiple times less impactful that the necessary extraction for ICE's.
2) As you EV ages, the range falls, but it does NOT get any less efficient. An EV with 150,000 miles on the clock, even one that hasn't been serviced in any way will return pretty much exactly the same energy useage as a new one. For an ICE, every time you drive it, a huge number of moving parts wear out. This increases friction, and critically, in a modern ultra high tollerance powertrain that absolutely depends on those tollerances to perform at its peak, significantly reduces its overall efficiency. An ICE also has several single point failures, any of which render it's emissions catastrophic, and in fact, have to be specifically monitored by the On Board Diagnostics, and should they exceed a limit, your car becomes ILLEGAL to drive! I suspect the no1 cause of MOT failures of old cars is MOT emissions test failure (which it should be noted is several thousand times lower a std than the actual limits under which the car was homologated, ie is really, really easy to pass, even when you car is basically knackered.
3) As the Grid greens the car you have just bought gets "cleaner" without you doing anything or spending any money! This is huge. You buy a car new this year, and in 5 years time it will be LESS polluting than it is today, for exactly zero cost or effort on your part. It's hard to explain just how important that is. And of course, you could, if you were not driven by purely financial goals, install your own solar system and pretty much drive your EV for what is effectively zero g/km over the life of the car. You can't (practically) do that with an ICE
So you claim people are "misguided" and yet you claims simply do not match reality.
Great response.EVs are indeed not a zero carbon, zero pollution option. It would be better to not buy a new car.
But if you are going to buy a new car, then over the life of that car (note: not necessary just the life under the first owner, but do you scrap your 3 yo cars when you've finished with them?) it's signifciantly (around 2.6 times in the UK with the grid mix as per 2018) better in terms of carbon released and obviously several thousand times better in terms of local air Pollution (NOx, THc, PM etc).
And of course, three other important factors mean that buying an EV as soon as possible is a good thing (instead of an ICE)
1) The rare earth materials mined (mostly by children obvs......) that go into the battery in an EV are not consumed during the use of that vehicle. The 60kg or so of lithium in a Tesla battery are still there, when it gets scrapped. That means recycling is not just possible, but cost effective (and that's ignoring the fact that aged BEV batteries can also go on to second life non transport applications and so further extend their useful life). You ICE car uses the fuel you put into it. This means that demand and extraction (and refining) of those materials is not just constant, but has to occur continuously and nothing can be (easily) recycled. That alone renders the extraction of raw materials for EVs as multiple times less impactful that the necessary extraction for ICE's.
2) As you EV ages, the range falls, but it does NOT get any less efficient. An EV with 150,000 miles on the clock, even one that hasn't been serviced in any way will return pretty much exactly the same energy useage as a new one. For an ICE, every time you drive it, a huge number of moving parts wear out. This increases friction, and critically, in a modern ultra high tollerance powertrain that absolutely depends on those tollerances to perform at its peak, significantly reduces its overall efficiency. An ICE also has several single point failures, any of which render it's emissions catastrophic, and in fact, have to be specifically monitored by the On Board Diagnostics, and should they exceed a limit, your car becomes ILLEGAL to drive! I suspect the no1 cause of MOT failures of old cars is MOT emissions test failure (which it should be noted is several thousand times lower a std than the actual limits under which the car was homologated, ie is really, really easy to pass, even when you car is basically knackered.
3) As the Grid greens the car you have just bought gets "cleaner" without you doing anything or spending any money! This is huge. You buy a car new this year, and in 5 years time it will be LESS polluting than it is today, for exactly zero cost or effort on your part. It's hard to explain just how important that is. And of course, you could, if you were not driven by purely financial goals, install your own solar system and pretty much drive your EV for what is effectively zero g/km over the life of the car. You can't (practically) do that with an ICE
So you claim people are "misguided" and yet you claims simply do not match reality.
I don't think anyone under 40 would be willing to occupy such an ignorant position. Stubborn old men who don't know what they're talking about getting pissy that the world is changing.
I think there's a place for both ICE and electric cars. It's a shame we can't discuss the latter without folk going out of their way to die on combustion mountain. We are able to have both...
triathlonstu said:
Great response.
I don't think anyone under 40 would be willing to occupy such an ignorant position. Stubborn old men who don't know what they're talking about getting pissy that the world is changing.
I think there's a place for both ICE and electric cars. It's a shame we can't discuss the latter without folk going out of their way to die on combustion mountain. We are able to have both...
It would be wrong to split this by age in such a manner as the vast majority of buyers of premium EVs are the over 55s. The same with all expensive objects that require an above average level of income and wealth to procure. I don't think anyone under 40 would be willing to occupy such an ignorant position. Stubborn old men who don't know what they're talking about getting pissy that the world is changing.
I think there's a place for both ICE and electric cars. It's a shame we can't discuss the latter without folk going out of their way to die on combustion mountain. We are able to have both...
Sporky said:
robsco said:
They will never replace our petrol engined toys from an emotive point of view, of course not. Nor do I think we will fawn over electric sports cars in the future.
I think they could. We're still early on with the modern EV after all, and manufacturers are still getting the hang of it. Lots of people saying the i-Pace and Taycan are genuinely good cars to drive without any "for an EV" caveat.If you look at this stage as the equivalent of the early ICE market you'd have a lot of people (were the inferweb around then) saying that a car could never replace the emotional connection between man and horse, or offer the same practicality because a car can't jump a fence or wade through a river. That's not to ridicule all the objections people have to EVs, it's more a comment that people will find joy or misery in whatever is available.
the horse is analogous, it still exists recreationally but not for transport.
younger people will, understandably, look and smell the exhausts of an ICE and think it quaint, or worse.
younger people will also experince an electric MX5 at some point and never look back.
My tuppence worth: unless you’re 2- / 3-year leasing for BIK reasons and can charge at home, run a mile.
These are nothing more than inefficient, knee-jerk, stop-gap dinosaurs. And the charging network, Tesla’s aside, is still pathetic.
Solid state batteries are on the way: much lighter; much, much quicker to charge; much longer range; much longer battery lifecycle.
So, unless you like the feeling of paying full price for a family-size box of fireworks on November 7, wait for solid state.
These are nothing more than inefficient, knee-jerk, stop-gap dinosaurs. And the charging network, Tesla’s aside, is still pathetic.
Solid state batteries are on the way: much lighter; much, much quicker to charge; much longer range; much longer battery lifecycle.
So, unless you like the feeling of paying full price for a family-size box of fireworks on November 7, wait for solid state.
triathlonstu said:
Great response.
I don't think anyone under 40 would be willing to occupy such an ignorant position. Stubborn old men who don't know what they're talking about getting pissy that the world is changing.
I think there's a place for both ICE and electric cars. It's a shame we can't discuss the latter without folk going out of their way to die on combustion mountain. We are able to have both...
Ironic. Mention any kind of reasoning why EV doesn't work and you are met with a chorus of EV fanboys all explaining how you are a luddite. I don't think anyone under 40 would be willing to occupy such an ignorant position. Stubborn old men who don't know what they're talking about getting pissy that the world is changing.
I think there's a place for both ICE and electric cars. It's a shame we can't discuss the latter without folk going out of their way to die on combustion mountain. We are able to have both...
A500leroy said:
The only downside for me is replacement batteries cost????, no one knows.
Nissan, for example, have always made a quote for replacement batteries. It was about £5k around 6/7 years ago. However, the packs from the newer cars are interchangeable with the smaller kw older packs.
There are also already companies appearing that will refurb old EV battery packs.
The big issue is whether the manufacturers have done anything softwarewise to inhibit this in other cars?
I've had a couple of lockdown glasses of wine, so I'll say what I think
All horrible, I'll be driving petrol cars until I can't drive anymore
Might as well buy a washing machine as an electric car
When I can't drive a petrol car I'll use taxi's and/or the autonomous electric self driving pods that will likely exist by then
All horrible, I'll be driving petrol cars until I can't drive anymore
Might as well buy a washing machine as an electric car
When I can't drive a petrol car I'll use taxi's and/or the autonomous electric self driving pods that will likely exist by then
In a few years time stinking out an urban area with your exhaust will be as remote a memory as stinking out a pub with your fags. Make sure you have driven all the ICE cars you want to by then. Change is coming, as soon as I can get an electric car that looks good that can do an easy 250 miles for a reasonable price then I'll make the jump. I'll probably keep the M3 though.
ate one too said:
But how "stinking" is a modern, clean ICE nowadays ?
It ain't carburettors, leaded petrol,two stroke bikes and sooty diesels any more.
Try the following and get back to me:It ain't carburettors, leaded petrol,two stroke bikes and sooty diesels any more.
Get hose pipe, stick it up exhaust. Put hose pipe through slightly opened window. Sit in car, start engine. Sit back and wait.
Ok, deliberately facetious example but "clean" is not a term that in any way can be attributed to an ICE engine. Yes a modern EU6 or 7 engine is VERY clean compared to an old no cat engine (or even an old EU3 one) but it's not actually CLEAN in absolute terms. And importantly, as it ages and wears, or if it is driven agressively / jerkily, then it emits much much higher levels of pullution. Portable Emissions Measurement Systems (PEMS) were introduced to the legal standards precisely to try to avoid such disparites between a test carried out by a perfect (usually a robot btw) driver on a set of chassis rolls under ideal conditions, but this still does not account for in-use wear and tear etc
ddom said:
Ironic. Mention any kind of reasoning why EV doesn't work and you are met with a chorus of EV fanboys all explaining how you are a luddite.
(my bold)The problem is that your "reasoning" is pretty much never actual reasoning. It usual goes along the lines of statements such as "children mining colbalt" or "EVs aren't actually green", or "batteries will wear out", and the like, and you will notice that in pretty much every occasion the following statements are made, precisely ZERO onbjective data or proof of fact is provided.
Fact is, the only FUNDAMENTAL problem with BEVs is that they cannot be recharged as fast as you can fill a tank of petrol from a pump. That is a physical, fundamental truth, driven by the specific energy densities of their energy sources.
The other "reasonings" are mostly either temporary factors as a result of the introduction of the new technology (high cost, relatively short range, "dirty" lithium mines, limited charging network etc) and often with little or no real basis in fact, and those so called short commings are pretty easily mitigated for the vast majority of private car users.
One of the frustrations around the "death" of the ICE is that air quality in the UK is as good as it has been since the industrial revolution started on almost all measures so the ICE has hardly poisoned our cities
The other frustration is the on a "well to wheel" basis BEV's are no better than a good mild hybrid at present
If in 10~15 years time our grid has moved from our ~50% carbon free generation (about 20% nuclear, 30% wind/solar...., 40% gas and 10% others at present) than the CO2 argument may have changed.
However, these seem to be "un-interesting" facts for our "lords and masters" in Westminster (and previously in Brussels) so the argument is lost
The other frustration is the on a "well to wheel" basis BEV's are no better than a good mild hybrid at present
If in 10~15 years time our grid has moved from our ~50% carbon free generation (about 20% nuclear, 30% wind/solar...., 40% gas and 10% others at present) than the CO2 argument may have changed.
However, these seem to be "un-interesting" facts for our "lords and masters" in Westminster (and previously in Brussels) so the argument is lost
A500leroy said:
The only downside for me is replacement batteries cost????, no one knows.
Downside? What about the replacement cost for your ICE powertrain?I'ev said this so many times, but i'll repeat it here:
A modern passenger car has a design life of 10 years and 150,000 miles irrespective of whether it is an ICE or a BEV.
Now of course, the design life is just that the nominal life, not the actual life. In reality you may get 250,000 miles out of your car, or it could well s
t it self terminally at 50,000 miles, but the typical, real world life of a passenger car is around 150,000 miles.Each and every time you drive your BEV the battery wears out a little bit, and if you drive it in the typical manner it's maker thought your would, then after 10 years and 150,000 miles, you will need to buy a new (or refurbished) battery
Each and every time you drive your ICE the powertrain wears out a little bit, and if you drive it in the typical manner it's maker thought your would, then after 10 years and 150,000 miles, you will need to buy a new (or refurbished) powertrain
There is no difference.
Well except there is , because during that 10 years and 150,000 miles you will have to spend almost nothing on lokking fater and servicing your BEV, unlike your ICE, which will cost you money every 12 to 20k miles, and a fair bit of money too. Add in costs for other wear items in the ICE (brakes, exhaust etc) and by the time you get to the design life of the vehicle, your ICE will have cost you significantly more money that an equivalent BEV
And because an BEV is a fundamentally extremely simple device, repairing it is significantly easier, and hence ultimately likely to be cheaper than fixing and ICE. And because the mainwear item (the battery) includes specific diagnosis capability, it's really easy and fast (and hence cheap) to work out what needs changing, unlike in a complex ICE, where problems have symptoms that can be caused by a myriad of failure cases (The failure "matrix" for an BEV, ie all the ways that is can fail, is insanely simple compare to a modern ICE)
martin12345 said:
One of the frustrations around the "death" of the ICE is that air quality in the UK is as good as it has been since the industrial revolution started on almost all measures so the ICE has hardly poisoned our cities
What happens if you look at before the Industrial Revolution, which was a time of extraordinarily high air pollution, rather than at the start of that period? Air pollution is still killing too many people.
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