RE: Lotus and Alpine team up for EV sports car

[kambites]

8-porter said:

EV is not a sports car powertrain for me - need much more involvement than speed...or range !! Leaves me feeling yawn.....bored.

That's exactly how I feel about turbochargers.

[Miserablegit]

kambites said:

That's exactly how I feel about turbochargers.

possibly not a child of the 80's then when everything seemed to have "turbo" plastered over it.
Turbos do not put me off but their characteristics have changed - old style turbo taking time to spool and then boom.
As long as it involves exploding dino juice I'm interested

Seem to recall PC's of the time also had a "Turbo" button

[otolith]

paralla said:

Expanding on your example of a BMW i3, it's maximum speed is limited to 93 for efficiency reasons and it has very narrow tyres for the same reason, both of these compromises mean it's not as fun as a sports car to drive.

Do they though? Or do they make it less fun to boast about at the public bar? Do you often have fun by exceeding 93mph on the public road? And was it not the case that the GT86/BRZ was praised for not having excessive grip, such that it could be made to move about at sensible speeds?

[paralla]

otolith said:

Do they though? Or do they make it less fun to boast about at the public bar? Do you often have fun by exceeding 93mph on the public road? And was it not the case that the GT86/BRZ was praised for not having excessive grip, such that it could be made to move about at sensible speeds?

I admit to not ever having driven an i3 so I can't comment on how they drive but I have driven a Zoe and can say with some confidence that driving my manual GT3 is more fun than driving the Zoe was.

[otolith]

That's a terrible comparison. That's like comparing a Taycan to a Prius and concluding that your GT3 must be rubbish because it isn't electric.

It also doesn't really answer the question of the relevance of top speed, or whether having massive grip is necessary to enjoy a car.

[paralla]

otolith said:

That's a terrible comparison. That's like comparing a Taycan to a Prius and concluding that your GT3 must be rubbish because it isn't electric.

It also doesn't really answer the question of the relevance of top speed, or whether having massive grip is necessary to enjoy a car.

Fair enough. I’ve also driven a Taycan Turbo and that wasn’t as much fun as my GT3 either.

[SWoll]

paralla said:

otolith said:

That's a terrible comparison. That's like comparing a Taycan to a Prius and concluding that your GT3 must be rubbish because it isn't electric.

It also doesn't really answer the question of the relevance of top speed, or whether having massive grip is necessary to enjoy a car.

Fair enough. I’ve also driven a Taycan Turbo and that wasn’t as much fun as my GT3 either.

But it was fun yes? And your point of reference is rather different to most I'd suggest.

I don't think anyone is suggesting EV's offer the same level of involvement as ICE, but dismissing them as incapable of providing any level of driving pleasure is just daft?

[otolith]

I think if you get all your pleasure from having a charismatic engine and a manual gearbox, you're not going to get that from an electric sports car.

If you can enjoy something with a four cylinder turbo and an automatic gearbox, there might be quite a lot left for you to enjoy in an electric sports car.

If it needs narrow tyres and a restricted top speed like an i3 to have decent range (and that's not a given) it's worth considering whether that will actually be a problem for your enjoyment of driving the car or whether it's a problem for your ego. Maybe driving at 100+mph is key to enjoying your car, maybe cornering on rails is more important to you than handling, maybe in that case it won't work for you (but something like a Taycan perhaps will).

I'm just recommending an open mind, let's see what can be done.

[danp]

paralla said:

otolith said:

That's a terrible comparison. That's like comparing a Taycan to a Prius and concluding that your GT3 must be rubbish because it isn't electric.

It also doesn't really answer the question of the relevance of top speed, or whether having massive grip is necessary to enjoy a car.

Fair enough. I’ve also driven a Taycan Turbo and that wasn’t as much fun as my GT3 either.

Being four wheel drive and with a lower CoG than a 911 I’d imagine it has more grip than your GT3, certainly in wintry conditions. Top speed is limited to only 162 mph tho’ I guess ;-)

[paralla]

otolith said:

I think if you get all your pleasure from having a charismatic engine and a manual gearbox, you're not going to get that from an electric sports car.

If you can enjoy something with a four cylinder turbo and an automatic gearbox, there might be quite a lot left for you to enjoy in an electric sports car.

If it needs narrow tyres and a restricted top speed like an i3 to have decent range (and that's not a given) it's worth considering whether that will actually be a problem for your enjoyment of driving the car or whether it's a problem for your ego. Maybe driving at 100+mph is key to enjoying your car, maybe cornering on rails is more important to you than handling, maybe in that case it won't work for you (but something like a Taycan perhaps will).

I'm just recommending an open mind, let's see what can be done.

The Taycan was somewhere in between my daily driver DSG Golf R Estate and the GT3 in terms of fun. If the Golf was my only frame of reference I'd probably have been blown away by the Taycan so there is hope.

[Simoncelli58]

I'm always hearing about the outstanding progress being made in the EV world.

However in 2008 you could physically buy a Tesla Roadster that weighed 1300kg with a 215kw motor and a 220 mile range

I would have thought a 10% improvement on those figures (with the £billions invested) would be an absolute minimum after 12 years

[kiseca]

Miserablegit said:

kambites said:

That's exactly how I feel about turbochargers.

possibly not a child of the 80's then when everything seemed to have "turbo" plastered over it.
Turbos do not put me off but their characteristics have changed - old style turbo taking time to spool and then boom.
As long as it involves exploding dino juice I'm interested

Seem to recall PC's of the time also had a "Turbo" button

Turbo stickers in the '80s didn't help the Lotus Esprit gain sales against the Ferrari 308 and Porsche 911, despite being cheaper and faster than either.

[CABC]

danp said:

paralla said:

otolith said:

That's a terrible comparison. That's like comparing a Taycan to a Prius and concluding that your GT3 must be rubbish because it isn't electric.

It also doesn't really answer the question of the relevance of top speed, or whether having massive grip is necessary to enjoy a car.

Fair enough. I’ve also driven a Taycan Turbo and that wasn’t as much fun as my GT3 either.

Being four wheel drive and with a lower CoG than a 911 I’d imagine it has more grip than your GT3, certainly in wintry conditions. Top speed is limited to only 162 mph tho’ I guess ;-)

and we're back on numbers, grip and traction.
and handling???

[Miserablegit]

kiseca said:

Turbo stickers in the '80s didn't help the Lotus Esprit gain sales against the Ferrari 308 and Porsche 911, despite being cheaper and faster than either.

More’s the pity

[kiseca]

Miserablegit said:

kiseca said:

Turbo stickers in the '80s didn't help the Lotus Esprit gain sales against the Ferrari 308 and Porsche 911, despite being cheaper and faster than either.

More’s the pity

That was definitely a poster car for me. I don't think they made many bronze ones.

Harry's Garage's European trip(s) in his white Turbo Esprit are quite interesting watching too.

[kett]

With Lotus reliability and French electrics, what could possibly go wrong?

Seriously though, these players could innovate something that could really challenge the mould that portly EV models seem to conform to.

[otolith]

Lotus cars haven't been unreliable for decades - sometimes niggly, for sure, though that should be improving. Not likely to strand you, might leak.

[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

Lotus cars haven't been unreliable for decades

Very true. I have felt for many years that the more Toyota there is in a Lotus the better the car.

Regrettably I just can't see this JV coming up with anything to achieve worthwhile "scale". Earlier you mentioned the Porsche/VAG tie-up over SUVs. All Porsche did in the early years was fiddle with VW SUVs a bit and stick a Porsche badge on them. (These days the changes are bigger.) What troubles me about this Lotus/Alpine project is that neither of them seems to bring anything "substantial" to the party.

Reflecting on it earlier this evening I was wondering, "Where would I start if I combined those two companies?".

Answer: I'd do a Lotus version of Alpine 110. Use the Alpine chassis, stick a Lotus (ahem) engine/driveline in it with a manual gearbox option (if linkage feasible) and bodywork subtly altered to lose the French foibles.

But then we've long been promised a "new Elise in 2021" so perhaps the above is all irrelevant, if the Lotus story can be believed.

[kiseca]

Didn't the Toyota engined Elises - or at least the 111R - have a habit of shearing a locating arm on the back wheels and the joints had to be checked as regularly as oil changes?

It's the one thing that's always put me off the Elises with the best engines in them because when it goes it's going to go under load, which is when cornering, and when it goes the outside rear wheel is suddenly going to go to about 45 degrees toe out. It can't end well.

[otolith]

The toe links? Yes, probably worth upgrading if tracked, especially with semi-slicks. Not really heard of them going on road cars with road tyres?