RE: Lotus and Alpine team up for EV sports car
Discussion
otolith said:
The toe links? Yes, probably worth upgrading if tracked, especially with semi-slicks. Not really heard of them going on road cars with road tyres?
Yes that was them. Seemed more likely on cars that had been tracked but cause was a joint that works loose, and as soon as that happens the damage is done and you need to replace the part, not just tighten the assembly. Something like that.I remember reading up on that a few years back when I was trying to decide between that or a 986 with its IMS bearing
Ended up with neither.
rockin said:
What troubles me about this Lotus/Alpine project is that neither of them seems to bring anything "substantial" to the party.
I look at it as their being reasonably well aligned on ethos - light weight and fun and not daft prices (Evija excepted). And they both like bonded and riveted aluminium.At that point it looks very much like they both benefit from scale. They're both going to have to go EV, so why not share development costs? Develop a platform that can accommodate an Elise size at one end and a 2+2 Evora (or a tad bigger) size at the other, let them each drape bodywork over it (possibly aluminium for Alpine and composite for Lotus). Each does their own suspension work (though the outcome is probably pretty darned similar), and then they can put a range of interior trims to suit.
With Renault and Geely behind the enterprise they'll get access to a good range of switchgear and so on, two sets of hybrid or EV drive trains, and possibly access to each others' dealer networks, especially if you consider Volvo and Nissan in the US.
I know I'm optimistic about this, but I think there's genuine potential for both, and as both has, I think, strong financial backing, you won't end up with a replay of Caterham.
Sporky said:
rockin said:
What troubles me about this Lotus/Alpine project is that neither of them seems to bring anything "substantial" to the party.
I look at it as their being reasonably well aligned on ethos - light weight and fun and not daft prices (Evija excepted). And they both like bonded and riveted aluminium.At that point it looks very much like they both benefit from scale. They're both going to have to go EV, so why not share development costs? Develop a platform that can accommodate an Elise size at one end and a 2+2 Evora (or a tad bigger) size at the other, let them each drape bodywork over it (possibly aluminium for Alpine and composite for Lotus). Each does their own suspension work (though the outcome is probably pretty darned similar), and then they can put a range of interior trims to suit.
With Renault and Geely behind the enterprise they'll get access to a good range of switchgear and so on, two sets of hybrid or EV drive trains, and possibly access to each others' dealer networks, especially if you consider Volvo and Nissan in the US.
I know I'm optimistic about this, but I think there's genuine potential for both, and as both has, I think, strong financial backing, you won't end up with a replay of Caterham.
I think the Supra would have worked better if the interior had been Toyota.
i'd be wary of partnerships where each party brought substance in the same sphere as that could lead to development conflict and worst of both worlds. it's better when there is true symbiosis and complementary skills, such as the VX220. no stepping on toes there. It would be too political, but a Lotus/Toyota tie-up would give a global network and quality parts bin.
I am looking forward to this, I must say. While a gearbox can be a nice tactile device to use, it's only there to deal with a limitation of the powerplant and for me running any EV exposes that limitation. It makes a petrol engine feel obsolete. Interesting to play with like a steam engine. Many of the other good parts of a sportscar - feedback, balance, responsiveness, will all benefit from an electric motor.
For me, it can gain more than it loses with the sound and gearbox, and to be honest neither of those have ever been reasons to buy a Lotus anyway. Or an Alpine, for that matter. I think these are the right companies to bring a fun EV into the market. Also, apart from Top Gear's focus on the range, the Tesla Roadster did pretty well in reviews too.
For me, the pleasure of driving has always been about connecting with the machine, getting feedback from the tyres, and being able to feel and play with the balance while stringing corners together and perhaps being able to test the limits of grip and play with the balance there. The engine has never been a priority, just has to be good enough not to get in the way of that experience.
For me, it can gain more than it loses with the sound and gearbox, and to be honest neither of those have ever been reasons to buy a Lotus anyway. Or an Alpine, for that matter. I think these are the right companies to bring a fun EV into the market. Also, apart from Top Gear's focus on the range, the Tesla Roadster did pretty well in reviews too.
For me, the pleasure of driving has always been about connecting with the machine, getting feedback from the tyres, and being able to feel and play with the balance while stringing corners together and perhaps being able to test the limits of grip and play with the balance there. The engine has never been a priority, just has to be good enough not to get in the way of that experience.
kiseca said:
otolith said:
The toe links? Yes, probably worth upgrading if tracked, especially with semi-slicks. Not really heard of them going on road cars with road tyres?
Yes that was them. Seemed more likely on cars that had been tracked but cause was a joint that works loose, and as soon as that happens the damage is done and you need to replace the part, not just tighten the assembly. Something like that.I remember reading up on that a few years back when I was trying to decide between that or a 986 with its IMS bearing
Ended up with neither.
Always had a visual inspection at services. I guess a mixture of fatigue and state of the Peak District roads the day it went. Peaks are definitely more suited to mountain biking than driving!
On topic, there won't be any IC cars, it's good that these two brands are getting together. Hopefully, a true lightweight sports car can be developed. No brand can change future legislation, EV's are coming.
Tickle said:
I snapped a toe-link earlier this year, road use with road tyres (AD08R). Car hasn't been tracked.
To be fair, AD08Rs are slightly stickier tyres than the car came with, but the toe links are definitely a weak point! Fortunately there's plenty of higher spec after-market parts available for not a huge amount of money. I changed mine when I did a suspension rebuild about five years ago. kiseca said:
otolith said:
The toe links? Yes, probably worth upgrading if tracked, especially with semi-slicks. Not really heard of them going on road cars with road tyres?
Yes that was them. Seemed more likely on cars that had been tracked but cause was a joint that works loose, and as soon as that happens the damage is done and you need to replace the part, not just tighten the assembly. Something like that.I remember reading up on that a few years back when I was trying to decide between that or a 986 with its IMS bearing
Ended up with neither.
Dismissing a car on that is somewhat shortsighted. I would do it to any Elise as a matter of course then forget about it.
SidewaysSi said:
kiseca said:
otolith said:
The toe links? Yes, probably worth upgrading if tracked, especially with semi-slicks. Not really heard of them going on road cars with road tyres?
Yes that was them. Seemed more likely on cars that had been tracked but cause was a joint that works loose, and as soon as that happens the damage is done and you need to replace the part, not just tighten the assembly. Something like that.I remember reading up on that a few years back when I was trying to decide between that or a 986 with its IMS bearing
Ended up with neither.
Dismissing a car on that is somewhat shortsighted. I would do it to any Elise as a matter of course then forget about it.
But between the Elise and the Boxster, it was enough to make me dismiss the R and look at Mk 1s instead.
I was also reacting to someone saying Lotuses have been reliable for decades so dismissing my comment because I didn't choose to buy aftermarket parts is missing the point.
Edited by kiseca on Monday 18th January 08:30
With EV's the battery isn't a replacement for the fuel tank - it's really part of the drivetrain.
Larger battery allows more cells to work in parallel and balance the electricity demands placed on the battery by the motor(s).
So it's not just a simple case that a larger battery gives more range like having a larger fuel tank. It also increases peak and sustained power output from the pack.
The summary is that it's really really hard to have "lightweight" (ie, small battery pack) with "performance".
Granted, some of the impact is reduced by having the pack so low in the car and the Taycan is stunning to drive but you can't completely disguise all the weight.
Larger battery allows more cells to work in parallel and balance the electricity demands placed on the battery by the motor(s).
So it's not just a simple case that a larger battery gives more range like having a larger fuel tank. It also increases peak and sustained power output from the pack.
The summary is that it's really really hard to have "lightweight" (ie, small battery pack) with "performance".
Granted, some of the impact is reduced by having the pack so low in the car and the Taycan is stunning to drive but you can't completely disguise all the weight.
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