RE: Lotus gears up for new sports car launch
Discussion
CABC said:
behold the Lotus Frontera.
Clearly Lotus (and Alpine) will have to produce an SUV - because that is what current fashion demands, and what makes money to fund their "serious" products. But they had better be quick about it - fashions change, particularly silly ones. It's just as likely (and much more sensible) that estate cars may become the "in" thing. Crossovers are, by and large a con, getting ever closer to conventional hatches.While I think your wish for a stripped out Elise is never going to happen, I do wonder if there is a deep desire for a narrow alternative to todays ever wider cars. Gordon Murray's main criticism of the A110 is that it is too wide. I'd agree.
My 2p.
Lotus are a small volume producer.
They have a fabulous heritage for lightweight innovation.
But there is little in the current range that is now truly innovative.
As a small manufacturer why would you go head to head with an MX5 / Alpine (not the greatest success) / Boxster / 911 ... and heaven forbid a McLaren ?
Forget the gravitas and marketing budget of Ferrari / Porsche / VAG Lambo / -- whatever it is has to resonate with greening of and exciting of our future ... accepting that the lates 2L MX5 does 40 mpg ...
Lotus need to get back to their roots with the support of their friends. They need something completely different to re-ignite their mojo, but something with a price point in the second or third car market .. with an emphasis on fun.
A lifestyle SUV ? There are so many ...
A lifestyle electric open-top / targa ? That could be something else ... not a trans-continental cruiser ... an affordable X-Fighter.
Look at the innovation in the Toyota GR Yaris ... you look at it and ask why nobody else saw that gap in the market ?
Lotus need to find their gap ... and go for it.
I really hope they have.
As a Porsche fanboy nothing would give me more pleasure than to make my next new car a Lotus. 'Had two so far ...
Lotus are a small volume producer.
They have a fabulous heritage for lightweight innovation.
But there is little in the current range that is now truly innovative.
As a small manufacturer why would you go head to head with an MX5 / Alpine (not the greatest success) / Boxster / 911 ... and heaven forbid a McLaren ?
Forget the gravitas and marketing budget of Ferrari / Porsche / VAG Lambo / -- whatever it is has to resonate with greening of and exciting of our future ... accepting that the lates 2L MX5 does 40 mpg ...
Lotus need to get back to their roots with the support of their friends. They need something completely different to re-ignite their mojo, but something with a price point in the second or third car market .. with an emphasis on fun.
A lifestyle SUV ? There are so many ...
A lifestyle electric open-top / targa ? That could be something else ... not a trans-continental cruiser ... an affordable X-Fighter.
Look at the innovation in the Toyota GR Yaris ... you look at it and ask why nobody else saw that gap in the market ?
Lotus need to find their gap ... and go for it.
I really hope they have.
As a Porsche fanboy nothing would give me more pleasure than to make my next new car a Lotus. 'Had two so far ...
CABC said:
i'd agree with nearly all of DA's points. i would add that the car market is much different to what it was in the middle to late 20th century.
- cars have a different aspirational dynamic now. they are no longer a passport to freedom, and the thrill of the open road appeals to a smaller number.
- regulation has all but killed lightweights
- economics mean break even points are much higher. (ironic as manufacturing and materials improvements mean we can make better for less).
- the hot hatch did so much, and yet maybe it killed the sports car? So many happy getting 80% of what a sports cars does and not caring about the last 20%, especially if it's actually faster.
in other words the demand and ability to release another Elise is gone.
PH at its best!- cars have a different aspirational dynamic now. they are no longer a passport to freedom, and the thrill of the open road appeals to a smaller number.
- regulation has all but killed lightweights
- economics mean break even points are much higher. (ironic as manufacturing and materials improvements mean we can make better for less).
- the hot hatch did so much, and yet maybe it killed the sports car? So many happy getting 80% of what a sports cars does and not caring about the last 20%, especially if it's actually faster.
in other words the demand and ability to release another Elise is gone.
I was going to reply to DA's post and say exactly the same thing. Some interesting insight/analysis from DA.
I think you're right about the 25k or 250k enthusiast market because everything in between is often a family decision.
For example, a couple where one is the enthusiast but the other has to live with the purchase - there are creature comforts or perceived quality which now comes into the buying decision due to non-enthusiast in the couple. This is the way the market has changed.
ChrisW. said:
My 2p.
Lotus are a small volume producer.
They have a fabulous heritage for lightweight innovation.
But there is little in the current range that is now truly innovative.
As a small manufacturer why would you go head to head with an MX5 / Alpine (not the greatest success) / Boxster / 911 ... and heaven forbid a McLaren ?
Did you see this yesterdayLotus are a small volume producer.
They have a fabulous heritage for lightweight innovation.
But there is little in the current range that is now truly innovative.
As a small manufacturer why would you go head to head with an MX5 / Alpine (not the greatest success) / Boxster / 911 ... and heaven forbid a McLaren ?
saaby93 said:
Nothing innovative. Why wouldnt they go head to head with Alpine
the problem with the Plato comparison is that it's just a lap time.The Elise is way more fun, direct and feelsome.
The Alpine is way more versatile, and liveable with.
i love both for what they do. However, i suspect the new Lotus will be even more user-friendly than the A110.
It's my understanding that great as the Alpine is, it hasn't sold well. It was just another very good car in this class .. but ...
Limited dealers / close to the Cayman but less practical / not the best looker / ... again just my 2p.
Could the new Lotus be a pure EV lightweight ???
Conscience free fun ??
Which other brand could do this better ?
Limited dealers / close to the Cayman but less practical / not the best looker / ... again just my 2p.
Could the new Lotus be a pure EV lightweight ???
Conscience free fun ??
Which other brand could do this better ?
leef44 said:
I think you're right about the 25k or 250k enthusiast market because everything in between is often a family decision.
For example, a couple where one is the enthusiast but the other has to live with the purchase - there are creature comforts or perceived quality which now comes into the buying decision due to non-enthusiast in the couple. This is the way the market has changed.
I think this dynamic is quite underestimated. Perhaps it is just my group of friends and myself but we all seek a level approval from the other half before buying. For example, a couple where one is the enthusiast but the other has to live with the purchase - there are creature comforts or perceived quality which now comes into the buying decision due to non-enthusiast in the couple. This is the way the market has changed.
I will own up that I have always wanted a Caterham but when thought about how I actually use my third car. I realised most of the time it’s doing stuff with my wife. We talked it over and I realised I simply would t get that much use out of Caterham because she wouldn’t want to go in it much. Where as a Lotus with doors, roof, AC etc she is totally happy to do weekends away in. I think it’s a similar situation with a lot of people except they buy a boxter because nobody is going to say they don’t want to go in it because it is like any other car.
There are thousand of petrol heads out there who like fast cars and enjoy driving but aren’t willing to compromise on all the other stuff. They aren’t getting up at 5am for a blast or plotting a ring trip. But they do buy cars I think Porsche have nailed this group and Lotus need to get into that slightly more mainstream market.
Edited by ntiz on Sunday 24th January 19:52
ChrisW. said:
It's my understanding that great as the Alpine is, it hasn't sold well. It was just another very good car in this class .. but ...
Limited dealers / close to the Cayman but less practical / not the best looker / ... again just my 2p.
Could the new Lotus be a pure EV lightweight ???
Conscience free fun ??
Which other brand could do this better ?
Comfotably outsold the Cayman in Europe in 2019 (only really marketted there so far) - hardly poor. Poor sales in UK down to lack of dealers and all In Renault showrooms.Limited dealers / close to the Cayman but less practical / not the best looker / ... again just my 2p.
Could the new Lotus be a pure EV lightweight ???
Conscience free fun ??
Which other brand could do this better ?
Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 24th January 20:06
bcr5784 said:
CABC said:
behold the Lotus Frontera.
Clearly Lotus (and Alpine) will have to produce an SUV - because that is what current fashion demands, and what makes money to fund their "serious" products. But they had better be quick about it - fashions change, particularly silly ones. It's just as likely (and much more sensible) that estate cars may become the "in" thing. Crossovers are, by and large a con, getting ever closer to conventional hatches.While I think your wish for a stripped out Elise is never going to happen, I do wonder if there is a deep desire for a narrow alternative to todays ever wider cars. Gordon Murray's main criticism of the A110 is that it is too wide. I'd agree.
The lunacy of the period we currently reside within dictates that in order to be environmental we must add weight, add complexity and consume as much as possible. GM's ideas are anti environmental as are any that promote the concept of using less and being more efficient.
saaby93 said:
ImpressivePractically anything small, light, simple, petrol powered will be impossible to sell in Europe from now on. I think the reason Japan keeps churning out decidedly old school stuff is because Europe is a minor blip for them and they are increasingly not even bothering selling their newer versions here. Porsche is hoping to go from an SUV brand to an EV brand and sell the odd sports car on the side while remaining within the CO2 quotas or make enough money so they can buy quota.
Lotus needs to cater for the European market so is bound by those constraints. It means batteries. It’s also the only thing that attracts funding these days. Many of the new EV brands have virtually nothing and are worth gazillions. Mind you, you need a bunch of chemists and developers to succeed there and talk about CI/CD and OTA upgrades, not experts in composites.
It’d be fun if they came up with something other than a 2,000kg SUV box full of batteries that looks and drives like everything else but not sure it’s possible with regulations or that people want anything else.
Lotus needs to cater for the European market so is bound by those constraints. It means batteries. It’s also the only thing that attracts funding these days. Many of the new EV brands have virtually nothing and are worth gazillions. Mind you, you need a bunch of chemists and developers to succeed there and talk about CI/CD and OTA upgrades, not experts in composites.
It’d be fun if they came up with something other than a 2,000kg SUV box full of batteries that looks and drives like everything else but not sure it’s possible with regulations or that people want anything else.
Been reading through the thread and done interesting thoughts especially around upping the aspirations.
It seems to me that this new car is essentially a stepping stone to their bright new EV Sportscars world. Almost a temporary car that allows them to stop their entire current lineup and take the next step into a much higher price point. If I understand that correctly it's a hugely brave move and they must think they have got something special to go from three models to one.
I think they should look at me as a buyer. Just sold an old GT3 to become a lotus owner. Need the space of the Evora, but prefer the diving experience of the exige. But I just can't quite bring myself to do it and I can't work out why. Every time i think of spending 65k on recent 410, something says, hold on, is it special enough? What about the 4.0 GTS? Perhaps that's just me, maybe I'm not a lotus owner after all. Well technically I am as I've got a 63 FIA Elan! Maybe I'm not a modern lotus owner.
It seems to me that this new car is essentially a stepping stone to their bright new EV Sportscars world. Almost a temporary car that allows them to stop their entire current lineup and take the next step into a much higher price point. If I understand that correctly it's a hugely brave move and they must think they have got something special to go from three models to one.
I think they should look at me as a buyer. Just sold an old GT3 to become a lotus owner. Need the space of the Evora, but prefer the diving experience of the exige. But I just can't quite bring myself to do it and I can't work out why. Every time i think of spending 65k on recent 410, something says, hold on, is it special enough? What about the 4.0 GTS? Perhaps that's just me, maybe I'm not a lotus owner after all. Well technically I am as I've got a 63 FIA Elan! Maybe I'm not a modern lotus owner.
The most memorable road trip I ever did was in a mk 1 Elise over 20 years ago. Never owned one as decided to go down the Caterham route, like the Elise it taught me well about the joys of lack of mass. Trouble is if you decide you want something a bit more practical but still lighter and smaller than where the market has evolved where do you go ??
Alpine stepped in with an option in the A110 at 1,100kg but if you want a soft top what do you buy ? Mazda have proved the packaging can be done and regulations still (for now) adhered to at around 1,050kg but without the driver focus / performance of the Elise.
I’m just gutted Lotus have never made an Elise in ND MX5 packaging, even if they called it er an Elan ? I know there is the argument why make another mx5 but surely a Lotus packaged like the Mazda but with 250bhp and a focussed chassis would have had some appeal.
Disillusioned perhaps but I’d buy one
Too late now I suspect but doesn’t stop me thinking “what if” ?
Alpine stepped in with an option in the A110 at 1,100kg but if you want a soft top what do you buy ? Mazda have proved the packaging can be done and regulations still (for now) adhered to at around 1,050kg but without the driver focus / performance of the Elise.
I’m just gutted Lotus have never made an Elise in ND MX5 packaging, even if they called it er an Elan ? I know there is the argument why make another mx5 but surely a Lotus packaged like the Mazda but with 250bhp and a focussed chassis would have had some appeal.
Disillusioned perhaps but I’d buy one
Too late now I suspect but doesn’t stop me thinking “what if” ?
Edited by Simon Owen on Monday 25th January 00:34
Edited by Simon Owen on Monday 25th January 00:35
Edited by Simon Owen on Monday 25th January 00:39
You can’t make a car aspirational by charging a lot of money for it. As new Exige and Evora demonstrate. The brand has to fit the price tag. None of the UK Lotus dealers I’ve visited feel upmarket compared to Middle market showrooms like BMW.
The Elise sold well when new because it was amazing to drive and affordable. The dealer network wasn’t a barrier to that.
I considered a 4C a while back and, as a product similar to an Elise, their dealers were awful. The worst I’ve ever visited. Disinterested salesmen, with no clue about any facet of the car.
When the new Lotus launches it will need to look amazing and be at least ‘as good’ as Boxster/Cayman, especially if it’s a £50k car. Even then, Porsche dealers are in the main pretty good. They will need to be offering good finance deals as well.
All these elements need big money behind them- the dealer network must reflect the car- at that price point.
The Elise sold well when new because it was amazing to drive and affordable. The dealer network wasn’t a barrier to that.
I considered a 4C a while back and, as a product similar to an Elise, their dealers were awful. The worst I’ve ever visited. Disinterested salesmen, with no clue about any facet of the car.
When the new Lotus launches it will need to look amazing and be at least ‘as good’ as Boxster/Cayman, especially if it’s a £50k car. Even then, Porsche dealers are in the main pretty good. They will need to be offering good finance deals as well.
All these elements need big money behind them- the dealer network must reflect the car- at that price point.
DMZ said:
Practically anything small, light, simple, petrol powered will be impossible to sell in Europe from now on. I think the reason Japan keeps churning out decidedly old school stuff is because Europe is a minor blip for them and they are increasingly not even bothering selling their newer versions here. Porsche is hoping to go from an SUV brand to an EV brand and sell the odd sports car on the side while remaining within the CO2 quotas or make enough money so they can buy quota.
Lotus needs to cater for the European market so is bound by those constraints. It means batteries. It’s also the only thing that attracts funding these days. Many of the new EV brands have virtually nothing and are worth gazillions. Mind you, you need a bunch of chemists and developers to succeed there and talk about CI/CD and OTA upgrades, not experts in composites.
Ultimately that is true - hence Lotus and Alpine getting into bed together. However, in the short term an emission friendly petrol option is still viable unless emissions taxes become much higher. At the moment nowhere has really high emission taxes on an Alpine - but in some places most competing products have draconian taxes - including Lotus models. So it can be done - and isn't that difficult with a truly light car (but not a supercharged one). The Alpine certainly isn't the best that can be achieved - it doesn't have cylinder deactivation and a mild hybrid could yield much better figures.Lotus needs to cater for the European market so is bound by those constraints. It means batteries. It’s also the only thing that attracts funding these days. Many of the new EV brands have virtually nothing and are worth gazillions. Mind you, you need a bunch of chemists and developers to succeed there and talk about CI/CD and OTA upgrades, not experts in composites.
A short-term fix for sure, but one that I would be keen to see.
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