ICE ban clouds on the horizon. Are you out?
Discussion
My sister and brother in law were EV early adopters with a Leaf a few years ago. They've gone all in an have run a couple of Leafs, an i3 and a Tesla Model 3 now. It's been interesting to watch and is feeding into my car choice when I come to replace mine later in the year. My conclusion?
I'm sticking with ICE. EV's seem fine if you just want transportation, but even the Model 3 is thoroughly whelming as a driving experience. Great tech, deeply average car, rubbish to refuel (I can't charge at home).
So I shall go for something else with 6 cylinders that runs on petrol. Probably a 440i GC, but the M3 and Giulia QF are definitely on my radar.
I'm sticking with ICE. EV's seem fine if you just want transportation, but even the Model 3 is thoroughly whelming as a driving experience. Great tech, deeply average car, rubbish to refuel (I can't charge at home).
So I shall go for something else with 6 cylinders that runs on petrol. Probably a 440i GC, but the M3 and Giulia QF are definitely on my radar.
bodhi said:
My sister and brother in law were EV early adopters with a Leaf a few years ago. They've gone all in an have run a couple of Leafs, an i3 and a Tesla Model 3 now. It's been interesting to watch and is feeding into my car choice when I come to replace mine later in the year. My conclusion?
I'm sticking with ICE. EV's seem fine if you just want transportation, but even the Model 3 is thoroughly whelming as a driving experience. Great tech, deeply average car, rubbish to refuel (I can't charge at home).
So I shall go for something else with 6 cylinders that runs on petrol. Probably a 440i GC, but the M3 and Giulia QF are definitely on my radar.
Your ICE days and options are numbered, especially if buying new...I'm sticking with ICE. EV's seem fine if you just want transportation, but even the Model 3 is thoroughly whelming as a driving experience. Great tech, deeply average car, rubbish to refuel (I can't charge at home).
So I shall go for something else with 6 cylinders that runs on petrol. Probably a 440i GC, but the M3 and Giulia QF are definitely on my radar.
NDA said:
If filling with volts was quicker/easier....?
If EV body shapes were more Porsche and less Tesla....?
If ranges averaged at a guaranteed 300 miles....?
If performances were all sub 4 second 0-60...?
....Would you still be out?
I don't want my wife to be in charge of a sub 4 second shopping trolly!!! Nor do I want the majority of road users to be either. If EV body shapes were more Porsche and less Tesla....?
If ranges averaged at a guaranteed 300 miles....?
If performances were all sub 4 second 0-60...?
....Would you still be out?
VW have the right idea with their sub 10 second, brick shaped, Dorismobile.
df76 said:
So, even ignoring the UK government policy requirements, Ford and JLR will now both be fully electric by 2030. Within twenty years an "old" ICE car on our roads will start to become quite a rarity. The future use of petrol station land will now become quite a focus.
You need to read the small print and not the headlines on these stories. NDA said:
If filling with volts was quicker/easier....?
If EV body shapes were more Porsche and less Tesla....?
If ranges averaged at a guaranteed 300 miles....?
If performances were all sub 4 second 0-60...?
....Would you still be out?
Numbers. Not really the definition of what makes driving fun is it? And the crucial one you have missed is the cost of this fantasy EV, not that it resolves the obvious issues with weight/handling/character. If EV body shapes were more Porsche and less Tesla....?
If ranges averaged at a guaranteed 300 miles....?
If performances were all sub 4 second 0-60...?
....Would you still be out?
TTmonkey said:
df76 said:
So, even ignoring the UK government policy requirements, Ford and JLR will now both be fully electric by 2030. Within twenty years an "old" ICE car on our roads will start to become quite a rarity. The future use of petrol station land will now become quite a focus.
You need to read the small print and not the headlines on these stories. Edited by df76 on Wednesday 17th February 16:33
NDA said:
If filling with volts was quicker/easier....?
If EV body shapes were more Porsche and less Tesla....?
If ranges averaged at a guaranteed 300 miles....?
If performances were all sub 4 second 0-60...?
....Would you still be out?
Yes... next question?If EV body shapes were more Porsche and less Tesla....?
If ranges averaged at a guaranteed 300 miles....?
If performances were all sub 4 second 0-60...?
....Would you still be out?
If I were buying a washing machine I'd be looking at data and figures... but something you spend so much time in and money on has to work on an emotional level. I suppose it's like buying a house...how many people study the energy efficiency information (again, clearly not me, burning through a big oil tank in the garden at this time of year!) versus buying a house they enjoy living in?
Sure we need to save the planet... if you believe the noise... but I'll do my part in other ways
So where does this leave me with my two dailys that combined are worth about £8k?
When either of them are too expensive to repair I'll replace them with equally cheap cars. Come 2030 I'll probably still be doing the same, so an EV will never be on my radar unless they fall into that same price range - whether they fit my driving profile or not. Sure it would be nice to not have to pay for liquid fuel for them regularly, but it'll still be significantly cheaper than buying a car that doesn't.
By 2050 I expect there will be hoards of woken buffoons hearing the sound of an exhaust and throwing their fully recyclable cardboard cups at your windows and fake coughing, shouting that you're murdering them. The general population will embarrass all ICE cars off the road eventually.
Have any EV cars been hacked or infected with viruses yet? That's surely possible with over-the-air updates.
When either of them are too expensive to repair I'll replace them with equally cheap cars. Come 2030 I'll probably still be doing the same, so an EV will never be on my radar unless they fall into that same price range - whether they fit my driving profile or not. Sure it would be nice to not have to pay for liquid fuel for them regularly, but it'll still be significantly cheaper than buying a car that doesn't.
By 2050 I expect there will be hoards of woken buffoons hearing the sound of an exhaust and throwing their fully recyclable cardboard cups at your windows and fake coughing, shouting that you're murdering them. The general population will embarrass all ICE cars off the road eventually.
Have any EV cars been hacked or infected with viruses yet? That's surely possible with over-the-air updates.
bodhi said:
I'm sticking with ICE. EV's seem fine if you just want transportation, but even the Model 3 is thoroughly whelming as a driving experience. Great tech, deeply average car, rubbish to refuel (I can't charge at home).
https://shop.tesla.com/en_gb/product/silver-wall-connectorBlu3R said:
So where does this leave me with my two dailys that combined are worth about £8k?
When either of them are too expensive to repair I'll replace them with equally cheap cars. Come 2030 I'll probably still be doing the same, so an EV will never be on my radar unless they fall into that same price range - whether they fit my driving profile or not. Sure it would be nice to not have to pay for liquid fuel for them regularly, but it'll still be significantly cheaper than buying a car that doesn't.
By 2050 I expect there will be hoards of woken buffoons hearing the sound of an exhaust and throwing their fully recyclable cardboard cups at your windows and fake coughing, shouting that you're murdering them. The general population will embarrass all ICE cars off the road eventually.
Have any EV cars been hacked or infected with viruses yet? That's surely possible with over-the-air updates.
We have seen that there are plenty of people who change cars for no other reason than they want to. When either of them are too expensive to repair I'll replace them with equally cheap cars. Come 2030 I'll probably still be doing the same, so an EV will never be on my radar unless they fall into that same price range - whether they fit my driving profile or not. Sure it would be nice to not have to pay for liquid fuel for them regularly, but it'll still be significantly cheaper than buying a car that doesn't.
By 2050 I expect there will be hoards of woken buffoons hearing the sound of an exhaust and throwing their fully recyclable cardboard cups at your windows and fake coughing, shouting that you're murdering them. The general population will embarrass all ICE cars off the road eventually.
Have any EV cars been hacked or infected with viruses yet? That's surely possible with over-the-air updates.
I don’t see EVs changing that element of human nature. So I don’t see an issue with affordable s/h EVs.
To your other point, I think this could be an issue. When everything is whirring around, an ICE is going to stand out. I do worry about how the current crop of cancel culture kids are going to grow up. Intolerance seems par for the course.
NMNeil said:
Considering my parking space is 30m away from my house and the only way to get electricity there is ask the railway depot next door if I can borrow some of theirs, precisely what use is a wall connector? bodhi said:
Considering my parking space is 30m away from my house and the only way to get electricity there is ask the railway depot next door if I can borrow some of theirs, precisely what use is a wall connector?
That I didn't know.But at the moment how much petrol do you store at your house to refuel your ICE cars?
swisstoni said:
We have seen that there are plenty of people who change cars for no other reason than they want to.
I don’t see EVs changing that element of human nature. So I don’t see an issue with affordable s/h EVs.
To your other point, I think this could be an issue. When everything is whirring around, an ICE is going to stand out. I do worry about how the current crop of cancel culture kids are going to grow up. Intolerance seems par for the course.
We already have extremely intollerant sections of society. Just look at the enormous angry pensioner army, fuming at everything that is slightly different. Look at the younger people who shake with rage at things which are different and appear just unable to cope with alternate thoughts. I don’t see EVs changing that element of human nature. So I don’t see an issue with affordable s/h EVs.
To your other point, I think this could be an issue. When everything is whirring around, an ICE is going to stand out. I do worry about how the current crop of cancel culture kids are going to grow up. Intolerance seems par for the course.
I'm not sure if these people have suddenly appeared as a function of the nanny state doing everything for them and giving them money or if they have always been there but we never heard their uneducated, simple frothing because the media was never financially rewarded to ask a moron for his opinion on something important
Either way the intollerant are already among us. I would have thought that since 2016 that was pretty clear.
. For the normal majority life is now a question of which group of intollerant, dishonest, damaged people are you going to offend by whatever it is you do next? But by politicising the EV market place and by making them aspirational chattels for apex consumers then it seems almost certain that just as you have people shaking with rage at an EV, once those people have been offered a cheaper lease and been converted overnight to EVs and how awesome they are then those people will shake in rage at scum in ICE.
The only difference though is that much of the hatred of EVs is the same as the hatred for SUVs or women in expensive cars or brown people in nice cars. It's actually hatred of the person behind the wheel and that they can afford nice things when you're clearly a superior human but can't. So they won't feel threatened by someone in an old ICE as they will register them as an inferior human to themselves.
Likewise, the current apex consumer who can't stop shopping for the latest thing due to feeling inferior to others and needing chattels to convince themselves they aren't, once most people have an EV they won't get the same medical support from going online and telling people they are the better human so their twaddle will die down as they find other consumer markets to feed their need.
This is why the sooner generic EVs become cheaper to lease than generic ICE the better. Then all this polarising tripe of pathetic blokes can move elsewhere and we can trundle around in nice little EVs while having something silly in the garage at home and neither trigger the mental when you use them. The whole thing at the moment is a pathetic bunch of sadsacks, one group in often badly built, super trendy but fundamentally flawed WiFi enables white goods screaming that they are superior humans while the other group is sitting in bland, insipid, generic people transports for the masses screaming that somehow they won't be able to drive such a great handling vehicle next week.
It's Ru Paul v Ronnie Pickering and someone's lost the remote!
bodhi said:
Considering my parking space is 30m away from my house and the only way to get electricity there is ask the railway depot next door if I can borrow some of theirs, precisely what use is a wall connector?
If you take someone who has no means to refuel at home but is trapped through poverty in the 3 year lease and repeat cycle then EVs will becomes an issue for this section of society in around 2037/38. EVs will only be bought by people who can take advantage of their benefits not by those who would be hindered by their shortfalls. The key benefits today being refuelling at home, massive tax breaks and not being hindered by range issues (typically due to owning other cars). That actually accounts for a pretty large segment of the population and why over the next few years there is no particular reason to not believe that EV sales will get to around half of all UK sales at around 1m units per annum.
But as the number of EVs expands so the number of employers and retailers and owners of car parks must expand their charging facilities to lure those people to them. Want your staff to pick an EV from your fleet so that your business gives the illusion of being environmental? Then you have to ensure that all your staff can charge those cars. Want to bring those consumers to your shop and not let them go to a competitor? Then you will need lots of chargers in your car park.
Why not even privatise the parking rights outside people's homes? Stick them on leases with a juicy monthly fee that can also be increased to include a charger for topping up?
The uncomfortable reality for a few edge cases is that as the carpark charging network is expanded the vast majority of people will have absolutely no issue charging their EV regardless of where they live and so those edge cases will have to fit in by finding alternate solutions.
For almost everyone without home charging it'll be a simple case of drive to work, plug in to top up. Drive to the shops, plug in to top up, and making small usage adjustments.
DonkeyApple said:
bodhi said:
Considering my parking space is 30m away from my house and the only way to get electricity there is ask the railway depot next door if I can borrow some of theirs, precisely what use is a wall connector?
If you take someone who has no means to refuel at home but is trapped through poverty in the 3 year lease and repeat cycle then EVs will becomes an issue for this section of society in around 2037/38. EVs will only be bought by people who can take advantage of their benefits not by those who would be hindered by their shortfalls. The key benefits today being refuelling at home, massive tax breaks and not being hindered by range issues (typically due to owning other cars). That actually accounts for a pretty large segment of the population and why over the next few years there is no particular reason to not believe that EV sales will get to around half of all UK sales at around 1m units per annum.
But as the number of EVs expands so the number of employers and retailers and owners of car parks must expand their charging facilities to lure those people to them. Want your staff to pick an EV from your fleet so that your business gives the illusion of being environmental? Then you have to ensure that all your staff can charge those cars. Want to bring those consumers to your shop and not let them go to a competitor? Then you will need lots of chargers in your car park.
Why not even privatise the parking rights outside people's homes? Stick them on leases with a juicy monthly fee that can also be increased to include a charger for topping up?
The uncomfortable reality for a few edge cases is that as the carpark charging network is expanded the vast majority of people will have absolutely no issue charging their EV regardless of where they live and so those edge cases will have to fit in by finding alternate solutions.
For almost everyone without home charging it'll be a simple case of drive to work, plug in to top up. Drive to the shops, plug in to top up, and making small usage adjustments.
df76 said:
Agreed. In the short term there may be a bit of messing about with availability and charging types, but in the longer term it will be an easy process for the vast majority of people. It will obviously be much cheaper to charge at home if you can (providers are already offering flexible tariffs where you can make the most of very cheap off peak rates. Eventually, combining that with your own renewable supply with battery storage could make it a very cheap option).
That's the thing. No one has to buy an EV. The only people who will and do are those for whom the product works. As the number of those users increase so more businesses will add more chargers and those remote chargers will allow other people to take advantage of the switch. Both BO and Shell already own two of the largest charging companies and they've already done deals with major landlords.
Re electricity being cheap, it won't remain cheap. There will be an assault on domestic gas this decade and as more homes become purely supplied by electricity so the taxes on that usage will increase. Electricity taxes will evolve to become akin to a wealth tax with elevated rates for excess usage.
NMNeil said:
That I didn't know.
But at the moment how much petrol do you store at your house to refuel your ICE cars?
I did mention that I couldn't charge, however I don't keep any petrol at my house either - no real point when, on the other side of the railway depot, there's a Tesco Extra with a petrol station. Or, if I'm out an about, I make a 5 minute stop to get some more. But at the moment how much petrol do you store at your house to refuel your ICE cars?
However I've never been one of those people who hates filling my car up. It was slightly less pleasant when I had a diesel, but petrol is fine. Mine goes from empty to full in about 90 seconds, and I can pick up a drink and some cigarettes when I'm there.
I'm sure if I was determined I could maybe make an EV work if there's a local fast charger - but that fast charger will still take 30 mins to fill and I dread to think what constant fast charging will do to the batteries. However as I said in my first post, I really don't find EV's interesting enough to make life more difficult, so my next car will be petrol.
I will re-evaluate on the next one 3 or 4 years down the road and see what is available and how painful ICE's are to run by that point, but in the near future I have no interest in making the move.
bodhi said:
I did mention that I couldn't charge, however I don't keep any petrol at my house either - no real point when, on the other side of the railway depot, there's a Tesco Extra with a petrol station. Or, if I'm out an about, I make a 5 minute stop to get some more.
However I've never been one of those people who hates filling my car up. It was slightly less pleasant when I had a diesel, but petrol is fine. Mine goes from empty to full in about 90 seconds, and I can pick up a drink and some cigarettes when I'm there.
I'm sure if I was determined I could maybe make an EV work if there's a local fast charger - but that fast charger will still take 30 mins to fill and I dread to think what constant fast charging will do to the batteries. However as I said in my first post, I really don't find EV's interesting enough to make life more difficult, so my next car will be petrol.
I will re-evaluate on the next one 3 or 4 years down the road and see what is available and how painful ICE's are to run by that point, but in the near future I have no interest in making the move.
I think that's the same for plenty of people. Few people need to fill their car up every day, maybe once a week at best and most people during a week will park their car somewhere for a reasonable length of time while they do something, whether that's work, shopping or leisure etc. If they aren't then maybe they don't even need a car? But even for people without private parking, charging will become a very easy thing to do. However I've never been one of those people who hates filling my car up. It was slightly less pleasant when I had a diesel, but petrol is fine. Mine goes from empty to full in about 90 seconds, and I can pick up a drink and some cigarettes when I'm there.
I'm sure if I was determined I could maybe make an EV work if there's a local fast charger - but that fast charger will still take 30 mins to fill and I dread to think what constant fast charging will do to the batteries. However as I said in my first post, I really don't find EV's interesting enough to make life more difficult, so my next car will be petrol.
I will re-evaluate on the next one 3 or 4 years down the road and see what is available and how painful ICE's are to run by that point, but in the near future I have no interest in making the move.
The key is to not change until that's the case as it'll obviously be a complete ballache and an unnecessary one.
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