RE: Gordon Murray: 'Last flag-waver of a great V12'
Discussion
_Neal_ said:
I really don't think it follows that any detractors are simply jealous and their arguments can be written off as a result. Nor does it follow that because this thread isn't a worshipful echo chamber Pistonheads has gone downhill. There's room for multiple viewpoints here. As mentioned above, perfectly reasonably, Murray's ventures into road cars since the F1 have not met with much success at all.
You can love and be proud of the accomplishments and engineering brilliance, but dislike how the man comes across, for example. I think that's where I am.
An Ultima was used as a road mule for the drivetrain for testing. So the idea it is just a £100,000 version was not lost on Gordon. But he didn't sell you an Ultima with his engine in it either?You can love and be proud of the accomplishments and engineering brilliance, but dislike how the man comes across, for example. I think that's where I am.
The man obviously realised that if people are paying £10 mil + for a car that he knew could be improved and sold at half the price.
Personally I think the idea that T50 owners will be taking them to Lemans, sleeping in a tent and building a scale model out of the 25cl "33" beer bottles they bought at Carrefour seems a bit far off. I could be wrong, but I don't see it happening.
Without wishing to derail this thread, the UK proposes to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles in 2030, but plenty of other countries, like Italy, have no such planned legislation as far as I'm aware, though if someone know otherwise then please let me know. So, if Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati are still producing petrol powered performance cars post 2030, I'm assuming there will be a thriving import business by then for nearly new cars to be legally purchased, imported and used in the UK. Also, GM could still be producing his cars and selling them to people in countries that don't have legislation that prevents their purchase, or could even move his manufacturing to said counties for ease. Am I just talking b
ks there or is there some sense to that?
ks there or is there some sense to that?VladD said:
Without wishing to derail this thread, the UK proposes to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles in 2030, but plenty of other countries, like Italy, have no such planned legislation as far as I'm aware, though if someone know otherwise then please let me know. So, if Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati are still producing petrol powered performance cars post 2030, I'm assuming there will be a thriving import business by then for nearly new cars to be legally purchased, imported and used in the UK. Also, GM could still be producing his cars and selling them to people in countries that don't have legislation that prevents their purchase, or could even move his manufacturing to said counties for ease. Am I just talking bks there or is there some sense to that?
Pretty sure you’re talking bks there or is there some sense to that?ksThePackMan said:
VladD said:
Without wishing to derail this thread, the UK proposes to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles in 2030, but plenty of other countries, like Italy, have no such planned legislation as far as I'm aware, though if someone know otherwise then please let me know. So, if Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati are still producing petrol powered performance cars post 2030, I'm assuming there will be a thriving import business by then for nearly new cars to be legally purchased, imported and used in the UK. Also, GM could still be producing his cars and selling them to people in countries that don't have legislation that prevents their purchase, or could even move his manufacturing to said counties for ease. Am I just talking bks there or is there some sense to that?
Pretty sure you’re talking bks there or is there some sense to that?ksBy 2030, they will be requiring a fleet average equivalent to 92mpg.
If Gordon can achieve 92mpg from a 4 litre V12, I will be duly impressed.
The recent speed record discussion highlights Mclaren F1 and also where these cars sit in the big scheme of things.
There is SSC claiming the production speed record for North America. But the SSC hasn't been crash tested and they haven't sold any. The car that set the record is the only car. They hope to sell them and have it 50 state legal.
The Konigsegg owners are claiming that this is not a production car, they have sold 26 cars and so they are the production record holders. But Konigsegg are only federally registered as a loop hole as they dont make enough to justify the next step to be 50 states legal.
The Mclaren punters are holding up the F1 as the speed record, but then they never sold the Mclaren F1 in the US. So the SSC people are saying if the Mclaren didn't have to then why do they need to sell theirs in Europe?
The Bugatti punters are stating that the Chiron is the only "worldwide" car that you can buy everywhere and is legal. But then they won't sell the 300mph spec one and like the SSC Tuatara there is only one so others are saying it can't be classed as a production car either.
I am sure there will be a similar flag waving of this car, even though you can't walk into a dealer and buy one.
But lets see how it pans out
There is SSC claiming the production speed record for North America. But the SSC hasn't been crash tested and they haven't sold any. The car that set the record is the only car. They hope to sell them and have it 50 state legal.
The Konigsegg owners are claiming that this is not a production car, they have sold 26 cars and so they are the production record holders. But Konigsegg are only federally registered as a loop hole as they dont make enough to justify the next step to be 50 states legal.
The Mclaren punters are holding up the F1 as the speed record, but then they never sold the Mclaren F1 in the US. So the SSC people are saying if the Mclaren didn't have to then why do they need to sell theirs in Europe?
The Bugatti punters are stating that the Chiron is the only "worldwide" car that you can buy everywhere and is legal. But then they won't sell the 300mph spec one and like the SSC Tuatara there is only one so others are saying it can't be classed as a production car either.
I am sure there will be a similar flag waving of this car, even though you can't walk into a dealer and buy one.
But lets see how it pans out
Equus said:
SidewaysSi said:
I think GM has done very well for himself so not really the same.
Brunel did very well for himself, too - it was the investors in his projects who all ended up bankrupted.What people tend to miss about the 'great' Victorian engineering projects is that they almost invariably cost a s
tload more than they were predicted to; almost always the original investment companies went bankrupt, allowing the finished projects to be bought up for a pittance by someone else... and only then did they begin operating at a profit.The Rocket (Murray, not Stephenson) made a loss, and the F1 only turned a profit 'cos Ron Dennis called in a ruthless industry beancounter by the name of Derek Waelend to turn things around.
SidewaysSi said:
Who?
Who who?The full cast list of those mentioned:
- Brunel (Isambard Kingdom): Dead engineer and shameless self-publicist with a talent for commercially non-viable projects.
- Murray (Gordon): Ageing engineer and shameless self-publicist with a talent for commercially non-viable projects.
- Stephenson (Robert): Dead engineer (designed and built a steam locomotive that ran over and killed an MP, so can't have been all bad - where are you now we need you, Mr Stephenson?)
- Ron Dennis: estwhile owner of McLaren cars.
- Derek Waelend: ex Ford, Lotus and Jaguar production specialist (brought in as Manufacturing Director at McLaren to sort out production costs). Responsible for cutting £90K out of the F1, so that it reputedly turned a profit of about £6K per car instead of a loss of £84K per car.
Edited by Equus on Tuesday 2nd March 20:08
Equus said:
SidewaysSi said:
Who?
Who who?The full cast list of those mentioned:
- Brunel (Isambard Kingdom): Dead engineer and shameless self-publicist with a talent for commercially non-viable projects.
- Murray (Gordon): Ageing engineer and shameless self-publicist with a talent for commercially non-viable projects.
- Stephenson (Robert): Dead engineer (designed and built a steam locomotive that ran over and killed an MP, so can't have been all bad - where are you now we need you, Mr Stephenson?)
- Ron Dennis: estwhile owner of McLaren cars.
- Derek Waelend: ex Ford, Lotus and Jaguar production specialist (brought in as Manufacturing Director at McLaren to sort out production costs). Responsible for cutting £90K out of the F1, so that it reputedly turned a profit of about £6K per car instead of a loss of £84K per car.
Edited by Equus on Tuesday 2nd March 20:08
(Somewhat apropos of nothing) I found the One Formula book disappointing. It was probably worth the purchase price for the visuals, but very thin on insight into the detail of his engineering. That said, as the work of a single person, his early days at Brabham represent an outstanding achievement, never mind what came after. I think Bernie's approach to cost cutting in the design office outdid anything that Ron managed on the F1!
Teddy Lop said:
Who specifically, of the various tyrants and obsessives you'd call his peers and mentors, the enzos and ferruccios and colins and bernies and rons and all those gifted and flawed people, are we holding him to?
I'm pretty sure that the one he'd most want to be compared to is Colin Chapman... a man who (for all his flaws as a human being) was relentlessly innovative and forward-looking, built a company that still exists and still has influence out of all proportion to its size 4 decades after his death, won 7 world constructors championships (to Murray's two) and built many thousands of cars that are affordable to the average enthusiast - not a handful of trinkets to be hidden under dust sheets by the ultra-rich. If it's any measure of general fame, Chapman has also matched people like Brunel and Stephenson by having a statue of himself erected (at Mallory Park) and roads named after him, though he's yet to equal Brunel's achievement of a full-scale London university named in his honour.
Murray, at 74, has a fair bit of catching up to do if he's ever going to approach that legacy, despite Chapman's life being cut short at 54.
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