In what year/era did we reach "peak" car?
Discussion
After revisiting this thread, I wouldn't say my mind has changed even with input from others. I would say car interiors are now on the decline with everything being a fingerprint-magnet touch screen but the ergonomics are much better. I haven't seen a modern car that has the arm rest obscuring the handbrake for example. For us DIY folk, the earlier the car then generally the easier it is to repair. There's a whole other thread on ridiculously difficult repairs and modern engines have so many emissions add-ons that seem to cause more problems than they're worth to the car owners.
I think modern cars have too much pointless tech. Electronic handbrakes being one, everything needing to be coded for absolutely zero reason another. Excessive calibration when you replace a windscreen too so the car can pointlessly read road signs and all that other rubbish. A sensor on your accelerator pedal so a computer can tell your throttle body how much to open which requires another sensor. Or, a throttle cable..
As far as OP goes thinking it was nostalgia to when I was in my 20's, I wasn't a teenager yet on the millennium so definitely not nostalgia for me!
I think modern cars have too much pointless tech. Electronic handbrakes being one, everything needing to be coded for absolutely zero reason another. Excessive calibration when you replace a windscreen too so the car can pointlessly read road signs and all that other rubbish. A sensor on your accelerator pedal so a computer can tell your throttle body how much to open which requires another sensor. Or, a throttle cable..
As far as OP goes thinking it was nostalgia to when I was in my 20's, I wasn't a teenager yet on the millennium so definitely not nostalgia for me!
SidewaysSi said:
Baldchap said:
I think we're spoiled with brilliant cars today.
I've got cars outside from 1968, 1993, 1999, 2000, 2007, 2008, 2019 * 3 and 2021 and the best ones by far are the modern ones.
You need to list what they are - don't you have a newish Elise? Which is just cheating so skews things somewhat. I've got cars outside from 1968, 1993, 1999, 2000, 2007, 2008, 2019 * 3 and 2021 and the best ones by far are the modern ones.
1993 Reliant Robin
1999 K11 Micra
2000 XJ8
2007 Daihatsu Copen
2019 Elise 250 Cup
2019 RS4
2019 RS5
2021 GR Yaris.
It might just be that all my old cars are s
t. Edited by Baldchap on Thursday 4th March 12:40
1970s for me. Maybe at a stretch the 1980s.
The 1990s cars were mostly ugly blobs and it was the start of a real downturn for choice if you wanted a RWD sporting saloon. Alfa went fwd. Ford went FWD. Mercedes weren't sporting. That left just BMW, and if they didn't float your boat, it was either an old car or a Peugeot.
With that change went much of the RWD coupe market too, though it was a high point for Japanese coupes with the resurrected 300ZX, the Supra and the beautiful third generation RX-7. Maserati got better in the 1990s too, actually.
But in the '70s and '80s you had lots of lovely Italian options at all prices. They weren't reliable, but if you wanted cars that looked good and were real drivers cars, they were the best available. And for me the E36 was never pretty, the interior wasn't particularly inspiring, and the steering in particular was terrible. I always fancied an E30 much more than an E36 and that remains true to this day. E30s can still look fresh. Not new, but timeless. E36s just look out of date.
The Countach and Testarossa, and before that the Berlinetta Boxers, were the peak for supercars, in the same way that Doom was the peak for FPS games. They set the precedent. And while they have all been bettered, everything since seems derivative.
The 328 was for me the last analogue Ferrari that was both beautiful to look at and beautiful to drive. The 348 just didn't look at nice, and from then with the 355 they went to power steering and... well just read comments nowadays when magazines trace the Ferrari lineage and sample the 348's steering. They lost something when the 355 came about and they've never got it back.
The Turbo Esprits from the '80s to me are better looking than the Stevens cars that dominated the '90s, and drive better than the early Stevens cars too, though I believe that the S4 onwards are the pick of the line from a driver's point of view (ironically rescued by power steering in this case)
The hot hatch world was dominated by the 205GTI and Golf Mk 1 and Mk 2. There have been a few hot hatches since that can match those early cars for involvement but I'd say the '80s was when you had the most choice.
And the 80s was when Peugeot started its brief period of making great drivers cars, with the 205, then the 405 and in the 90s they kept it up with the 306.
I'd also say the '80s was the golden age of the tuner, when over the top didn't seem like a bad thing. 1000bhp twin turbo Testarossa, anyone?
There was still a big performance gap between sports cars and family cars, and the relative rarity of exotic cars meant they were seen in higher esteem. And when you drove one, they challenged you in ways that family cars didn't, so they always felt special and focussed in a way that a family car did not. You didn't have to be pushing it hard to enjoy the car or engage with it. Honda changed all that with the original NSX, a supercar which drove like a Civic.
Engine noises were better. Gearchanges were slower and Astons and Lamborghinis still had carburettors so you could enjoy a lovely growl on the overrun. Alfa's Busso V6 was in its purest, simplest form and could be enjoyed in the lightest Alfas it would ever see service in.
Yep, for me the 1980s was great. The 1990s and 2000s were emotionless blobs with a real lack of choice for RWD sports saloons (the do anything family car that isn't a hot hatch), everything went power steering which was good in some cases but robbed feel from many. And it stayed that way until about 2015 when Jaguar and Alfa started giving the 3 series some competition again.
If the 3 series has always worked for you, and it has for many, I can see how you'd end up with a much different viewpoint to me, but, with them having no competition, I did try a lot of different 3s over the years, and always came away disappointed. So for me, there's been a drought in the sector I'm most interested in for a single car household for 25 years.
The 1990s cars were mostly ugly blobs and it was the start of a real downturn for choice if you wanted a RWD sporting saloon. Alfa went fwd. Ford went FWD. Mercedes weren't sporting. That left just BMW, and if they didn't float your boat, it was either an old car or a Peugeot.
With that change went much of the RWD coupe market too, though it was a high point for Japanese coupes with the resurrected 300ZX, the Supra and the beautiful third generation RX-7. Maserati got better in the 1990s too, actually.
But in the '70s and '80s you had lots of lovely Italian options at all prices. They weren't reliable, but if you wanted cars that looked good and were real drivers cars, they were the best available. And for me the E36 was never pretty, the interior wasn't particularly inspiring, and the steering in particular was terrible. I always fancied an E30 much more than an E36 and that remains true to this day. E30s can still look fresh. Not new, but timeless. E36s just look out of date.
The Countach and Testarossa, and before that the Berlinetta Boxers, were the peak for supercars, in the same way that Doom was the peak for FPS games. They set the precedent. And while they have all been bettered, everything since seems derivative.
The 328 was for me the last analogue Ferrari that was both beautiful to look at and beautiful to drive. The 348 just didn't look at nice, and from then with the 355 they went to power steering and... well just read comments nowadays when magazines trace the Ferrari lineage and sample the 348's steering. They lost something when the 355 came about and they've never got it back.
The Turbo Esprits from the '80s to me are better looking than the Stevens cars that dominated the '90s, and drive better than the early Stevens cars too, though I believe that the S4 onwards are the pick of the line from a driver's point of view (ironically rescued by power steering in this case)
The hot hatch world was dominated by the 205GTI and Golf Mk 1 and Mk 2. There have been a few hot hatches since that can match those early cars for involvement but I'd say the '80s was when you had the most choice.
And the 80s was when Peugeot started its brief period of making great drivers cars, with the 205, then the 405 and in the 90s they kept it up with the 306.
I'd also say the '80s was the golden age of the tuner, when over the top didn't seem like a bad thing. 1000bhp twin turbo Testarossa, anyone?
There was still a big performance gap between sports cars and family cars, and the relative rarity of exotic cars meant they were seen in higher esteem. And when you drove one, they challenged you in ways that family cars didn't, so they always felt special and focussed in a way that a family car did not. You didn't have to be pushing it hard to enjoy the car or engage with it. Honda changed all that with the original NSX, a supercar which drove like a Civic.
Engine noises were better. Gearchanges were slower and Astons and Lamborghinis still had carburettors so you could enjoy a lovely growl on the overrun. Alfa's Busso V6 was in its purest, simplest form and could be enjoyed in the lightest Alfas it would ever see service in.
Yep, for me the 1980s was great. The 1990s and 2000s were emotionless blobs with a real lack of choice for RWD sports saloons (the do anything family car that isn't a hot hatch), everything went power steering which was good in some cases but robbed feel from many. And it stayed that way until about 2015 when Jaguar and Alfa started giving the 3 series some competition again.
If the 3 series has always worked for you, and it has for many, I can see how you'd end up with a much different viewpoint to me, but, with them having no competition, I did try a lot of different 3s over the years, and always came away disappointed. So for me, there's been a drought in the sector I'm most interested in for a single car household for 25 years.
Peak seems to be somewhere between 2010 for me.
That's not to say "the best cars ever were availabe in 2010", but for the average PHer it was peak car. The engineering was at a point where the real-world fuel economy of a 6 or 8 cylinder was great, but the economic climate didn't make them prohibitive for the common man to run.
BMW M3 - the V8 generation was 2007-2013.
BMW M5 - the N/A V10 was available until 2010
Mercedes E63 - the 5.5 bi-turbo V8 came out around 2010, and before then it was the 6.2 N/A V8 (that was also available in the C63 at the time)
Ford - the generation of Mondeo with a 5-cylinder ended in 2010, after that it's been 4-cylinder mundanity.
Vauxhall - the turbo V6s were available in the Insignia
Citroen - you could still get a V6 (albeit diesel) in the C5 around 2010
Renault - you could get the V6 in the Espace and Laguna around 2010
VAG - the Passat/Superb could be had with a VR6 or a V6 around 2010
The idiosyncrasies of different bluetooth and GPS systems had been ironed out, but the ICE systems weren't so complex as to fall-over requiring OTA updates and so-on.
That's not to say "the best cars ever were availabe in 2010", but for the average PHer it was peak car. The engineering was at a point where the real-world fuel economy of a 6 or 8 cylinder was great, but the economic climate didn't make them prohibitive for the common man to run.
BMW M3 - the V8 generation was 2007-2013.
BMW M5 - the N/A V10 was available until 2010
Mercedes E63 - the 5.5 bi-turbo V8 came out around 2010, and before then it was the 6.2 N/A V8 (that was also available in the C63 at the time)
Ford - the generation of Mondeo with a 5-cylinder ended in 2010, after that it's been 4-cylinder mundanity.
Vauxhall - the turbo V6s were available in the Insignia
Citroen - you could still get a V6 (albeit diesel) in the C5 around 2010
Renault - you could get the V6 in the Espace and Laguna around 2010
VAG - the Passat/Superb could be had with a VR6 or a V6 around 2010
The idiosyncrasies of different bluetooth and GPS systems had been ironed out, but the ICE systems weren't so complex as to fall-over requiring OTA updates and so-on.
Muddle238 said:
MC Bodge said:
Muddle238 said:
The other measure missing from your list is comfort, I’d say that peaked around 2000 along with smaller wheels and softer suspension.
And an often lighter, more airy cabin....with less crash protection.But - it doesn't "handle", which magazines tell us is an important thing for a massive relaxing commuter barge. Which of course it isn't. So we don't get cars made like that anymore..
Baldchap said:
SidewaysSi said:
Baldchap said:
I think we're spoiled with brilliant cars today.
I've got cars outside from 1968, 1993, 1999, 2000, 2007, 2008, 2019 * 3 and 2021 and the best ones by far are the modern ones.
You need to list what they are - don't you have a newish Elise? Which is just cheating so skews things somewhat. I've got cars outside from 1968, 1993, 1999, 2000, 2007, 2008, 2019 * 3 and 2021 and the best ones by far are the modern ones.
1993 Reliant Robin
1999 K11 Micra
2000 XJ8
2007 Daihatsu Copen
2019 Elise 250 Cup
2019 RS4
2019 RS5
2021 GR Yaris.
It might just be that all my old cars are s
t. Edited by Baldchap on Thursday 4th March 12:40
Late 90s for me. Lots of homologation specials; evo, impreza, celica gt4, 911 gt1 and clk gtr to name a few. Japanese cars at their peak; 200SX, Skyline R33/34 GTR, Supra, MR2 turbo, EK9/DC2 Type R's etc. BMWs still had proper sized grilles. Audi's were understated. Aircooled 911's still available. Peugeot's weren't designed for grannies. Oh and the Elise/Exige S1, best car ive ever driven and probably will ever get to drive.
Edited by LP670 on Thursday 4th March 15:52
donkmeister said:
Peak seems to be somewhere between 2010 for me.
That's not to say "the best cars ever were availabe in 2010", but for the average PHer it was peak car. The engineering was at a point where the real-world fuel economy of a 6 or 8 cylinder was great, but the economic climate didn't make them prohibitive for the common man to run.
BMW M3 - the V8 generation was 2007-2013.
BMW M5 - the N/A V10 was available until 2010
Mercedes E63 - the 5.5 bi-turbo V8 came out around 2010, and before then it was the 6.2 N/A V8 (that was also available in the C63 at the time)
Ford - the generation of Mondeo with a 5-cylinder ended in 2010, after that it's been 4-cylinder mundanity.
Vauxhall - the turbo V6s were available in the Insignia
Citroen - you could still get a V6 (albeit diesel) in the C5 around 2010
Renault - you could get the V6 in the Espace and Laguna around 2010
VAG - the Passat/Superb could be had with a VR6 or a V6 around 2010
The idiosyncrasies of different bluetooth and GPS systems had been ironed out, but the ICE systems weren't so complex as to fall-over requiring OTA updates and so-on.
I think its the ICE systems that let that era of car down for me.. It was hit and miss if they had USB inputs , and barely any had the ability to stream music from your phone over bluetooth. That's not to say "the best cars ever were availabe in 2010", but for the average PHer it was peak car. The engineering was at a point where the real-world fuel economy of a 6 or 8 cylinder was great, but the economic climate didn't make them prohibitive for the common man to run.
BMW M3 - the V8 generation was 2007-2013.
BMW M5 - the N/A V10 was available until 2010
Mercedes E63 - the 5.5 bi-turbo V8 came out around 2010, and before then it was the 6.2 N/A V8 (that was also available in the C63 at the time)
Ford - the generation of Mondeo with a 5-cylinder ended in 2010, after that it's been 4-cylinder mundanity.
Vauxhall - the turbo V6s were available in the Insignia
Citroen - you could still get a V6 (albeit diesel) in the C5 around 2010
Renault - you could get the V6 in the Espace and Laguna around 2010
VAG - the Passat/Superb could be had with a VR6 or a V6 around 2010
The idiosyncrasies of different bluetooth and GPS systems had been ironed out, but the ICE systems weren't so complex as to fall-over requiring OTA updates and so-on.
Later generations had better infotainment systems, but by then engines were downsides and farty-pop maps used to liven up the less tuneful exhaust notes. Earlier generations had hopeless infotainment, but were pretty much ISO standard, so could be swapped out for aftermarket - which in itself brings a lot of joy in its own right.
mid-2000s engine swap into a mid-90s chassis would be the best setup.
Mid 2000’s for me.
I like a lot of the designs (an example being most of Bangle’s BMW’s which I think have aged well), they’re safe, well built, don’t rust and not horribly complicated (well compared to the latest cars they’re not). No over use of touchscreens but stuff like A/C, cruise was the norm. They’re relatively easy to work on DIY now and there are good work around if you do want to add modern convenience like CarPlay.
Sticking with the BMW theme, the E46 I had felt more solid than the E9x cars that replaced them (none compact E46’s were better looking) but it seemed to have far more common issues than the newer car. The E90 I owned didn’t feel as solid as my E46 but it didn’t have a chocolate cooling system or an appetite for suspension components. Nor do they seem to rust.
I like a lot of the designs (an example being most of Bangle’s BMW’s which I think have aged well), they’re safe, well built, don’t rust and not horribly complicated (well compared to the latest cars they’re not). No over use of touchscreens but stuff like A/C, cruise was the norm. They’re relatively easy to work on DIY now and there are good work around if you do want to add modern convenience like CarPlay.
Sticking with the BMW theme, the E46 I had felt more solid than the E9x cars that replaced them (none compact E46’s were better looking) but it seemed to have far more common issues than the newer car. The E90 I owned didn’t feel as solid as my E46 but it didn’t have a chocolate cooling system or an appetite for suspension components. Nor do they seem to rust.
Chewbacca NE said:
Can’t believe how many people think infotainment contributes to ‘peak car’
For me, on any trip of less than an hour, I open the windows and listen to the V8
It's a regrettable trend.For me, on any trip of less than an hour, I open the windows and listen to the V8
Cars in the main are increasingly becoming vulgarly over styled throwaway fashion accessories where the only things that matter are the gadget count and having bigger alloys and a more prestigious badge than the neighbours.
Baldchap said:
cidered77 said:
I love the diversity/eclecticness of your collection, but have to say you may have a point there about the older ones!
It's ok because there's a 2005 Citroen C4 arriving this weekend to 'improve' the old car lineup... I just love old sheds for some reason.
te old cars Jaguar steve said:
Chewbacca NE said:
Can’t believe how many people think infotainment contributes to ‘peak car’
For me, on any trip of less than an hour, I open the windows and listen to the V8
It's a regrettable trend.For me, on any trip of less than an hour, I open the windows and listen to the V8
Cars in the main are increasingly becoming vulgarly over styled throwaway fashion accessories where the only things that matter are the gadget count and having bigger alloys and a more prestigious badge than the neighbours.
Jaguar steve said:
It's a regrettable trend.
Cars in the main are increasingly becoming vulgarly over styled throwaway fashion accessories where the only things that matter are the gadget count and having bigger alloys and a more prestigious badge than the neighbours.
I think for most, you are right. But this isn't just limited to cars, far from it.Cars in the main are increasingly becoming vulgarly over styled throwaway fashion accessories where the only things that matter are the gadget count and having bigger alloys and a more prestigious badge than the neighbours.
What is clear, thanks to threads like this, is that your average car is more than capable of lasting 20 years and doing 200k miles.
The burning question, is it more planet friendly to keep this older cars going, or should we be all going hybrid/EV? I personally think keeping an older car going is better for the environment, especially as many DIYers do, using used parts from scrapped cars.
Lincsls1 said:
Jaguar steve said:
It's a regrettable trend.
Cars in the main are increasingly becoming vulgarly over styled throwaway fashion accessories where the only things that matter are the gadget count and having bigger alloys and a more prestigious badge than the neighbours.
I think for most, you are right. But this isn't just limited to cars, far from it.Cars in the main are increasingly becoming vulgarly over styled throwaway fashion accessories where the only things that matter are the gadget count and having bigger alloys and a more prestigious badge than the neighbours.
What is clear, thanks to threads like this, is that your average car is more than capable of lasting 20 years and doing 200k miles.
The burning question, is it more planet friendly to keep this older cars going, or should we be all going hybrid/EV? I personally think keeping an older car going is better for the environment, especially as many DIYers do, using used parts from scrapped cars.
So the govt's choice would actually be to encourage everyone to swap to hybrids and EVs, or force everyone to stick with what they have now, because on the whole, we aren't going to do the latter by choice.
On the whole, the average 1st or 2nd owner in the UK won't use their car until it's completely consumed. They'll swap it when they get bored of it, when something better becomes available, when their needs change (even a little), or simply before it has any possible chance of starting to cause them any headaches they might have to pay for... settling for a predictable regular monthly bill instead of an unpredictable big one (still probably smaller than the monthlies added up though.
Edited by kiseca on Friday 5th March 08:20
The march towards hybrid/compulsory limiters etc has certainly forced my hand slightly into getting a couple of 'forever cars' whilst I still can. Those current cars represent 'peak car' for me and, sad as it sounds, I think always will.
I've owned a Tesla, they have their place, I'd have another EV as a daily runaround (and almost certainly will). But the real special stuff feels to me like it's on last orders...
I've owned a Tesla, they have their place, I'd have another EV as a daily runaround (and almost certainly will). But the real special stuff feels to me like it's on last orders...
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